The Mana Cost of Mythic Rares - An Opportunity Cost Lost

Meto5000

I understand the reasoning of Developers to be that they feel comfortable with high mana cost Mythics because of how you can accumulate stock piles of mana in this game over the course of your turns. The problem with this logic is that while you're spending your time hoarding away your hard mana your opponent is across the table throwing up a bunch of spells that affect the board NOW.

The point of MtGPQ (at least for PvP) is to kill your opponent ASAP while taking as little damage as possible. High mana cost Mythics (and other overcosted cards at all rarity levels) don't help with this. They might help you win the game, but not quickly, and not before eating a bunch of damage first. Some of these Mythics have their place in PvE storymode, and maybe that's fine. To be honest, I find I have to be a lot more creative with my deckbuilding in PvE rather over my "Kill-Em-Quick" strategy in PvP. Typically in PvE you're up against one obvious strategy so you need to craft a deck specifically to beat that strategy. In PvP you have no idea who your opponent is, or what their deck is built like so you just have to go gung-ho all out fast as possible damage every time. I had to stop using Jace in PvP because although he won just as much as my Gideon deck, he usually took more damage and the matches took a lot longer.

Consider the powerful mythic Evolutionary Leap. A 21 mana support spell that reinforces your first creature on activation. This spell costs 21 mana, and it might get matched away before you ever have a chance to use it. Furthermore, it requires you to actually have a creature on the board already for it to matter. Good creatures don't really exist before 11-12 mana so we're talking 33 mana to have a chance to be able to reinforce your 12 mana creature...or you could just cast a second copy of your 12 mana creature (or a different 12 mana creature which is just as good usually). This should be changed from a support to a spell and have its mana cost brought to 10. A 10 mana spell that allows you to reinforce target creature you control? Sign me up!

Now, take the very powerful mythic rare Hangarback Walker; a 25 mana 8/8 attacker that makes a 1/1 thopter every time you make a match and vomits out a ton of Thopters when it dies. A 25 mana spell that can get bounced back to your hand with no benefit by a 4-10 mana Jace spell. In the time it takes you to cast your meaty Walker your opponent could have cast 2xSkysnare Spiders which he's been attacking you with for the last 2-3 turns. a 12/12 spider that can trade evenly with your Walker. So while the power level of Hangarback Walker is pretty high, the opportunity cost to actually cast him is even higher and therefore, not worth it.

I think a Hangarback Walker that cost 15 mana was 4/4, created 1/1 thopters each match and vomited 4 1/1 thopters out when it died would be an exceptional card. It can be answered, but if not it will run away with the game. It's super powerful despite "only" being a 4/4. To be honest, it might be too powerful, but hey, at least it's not rotting in your hand for most of the game. I believe 12-15 mana should be the sweet spot for most powerful cards. By the time you cast a 20+ mana spell the game could already be out of hand for you.

Unknown

Hear! Hear!

One problem to consider, though is balance across PW levels. (a) A 50 PW generates about 1 mana more per match and hence well over one additional mana per turn. (b) A 4/4 is a much bigger threat to a PW 3 than a PW 50. Part of making Mythics higher costed is keeping them out of level matches.

That said, the relative pricing of them compared to their powerful Rare cousins feels off. Almost feels like rarity should be rationed by PW level too.

Meto5000

ecoKady wrote:

Hear! Hear!

One problem to consider, though is balance across PW levels. (a) A 50 PW generates about 1 mana more per match and hence well over one additional mana per turn. (b) A 4/4 is a much bigger threat to a PW 3 than a PW 50. Part of making Mythics higher costed is keeping them out of level matches.

Hangarback Walker isn't a good card because it's an 8/8, although that's why newer players will pine for it and probably why the Developers made it cost so damn much, it's because it makes 1/1s on each of your matches AND creates more when it dies. A 4/4 that you can cast 2-3 or more turns earlier is way better than an 8/8 considering you'll have been attacking with it. A 4/4 that you can cast early on in the game that vomits 1/1s is a much bigger threat than an 8/8 you cast way later regardless of your PW level.

Another thing that is relevant is that mana doesn't come steadily 4-5 each turn. Some turns you get 0-3 mana and some rare turns you get 15+ mana. This means that high cost mythics are much more susceptible to mana draughts. If you're at 20 mana waiting to cast your Hangarback Walker you might have to wait 2-3 more turns until you can cast him. If you had a 12-15 mana creature spell, it would have already been cast 2-3 turns ago.

Edit: Sheesh, if it was a 2/2 for 8 mana with the same abilities and created 2 1/1s when it died it might be the best card that currently exists.

Unknown

If you have a Level 50 PW, you can't get less than 3 mana per match. Most of the time, you'll be getting 4-5 mana on your first match and 7+ on a cascade. With a Level 3 PW, you're looking at 3-4 mana on your first match and 5+ on a cascade so low-level Planewalkers are generating much less mana / turn.

That's not to say it's efficient even for Level 50 PW to cast 20+ mana monsters, but there's a huge difference in the ability to cast that card between low-level and high-level PWs.

Meto5000

ecoKady wrote:

If you have a Level 50 PW, you can't get less than 3 mana per match. Most of the time, you'll be getting 4-5 mana on your first match and 7+ on a cascade. With a Level 3 PW, you're looking at 3-4 mana on your first match and 5+ on a cascade so low-level Planewalkers are generating much less mana / turn.

That's not to say it's efficient even for Level 50 PW to cast 20+ mana monsters, but there's a huge difference in the ability to cast that card between low-level and high-level PWs.

You must be that lucky guy who apparently has never been forced to match 3 with planeswalker tiles.

Anyways, I'm not saying you don't get more mana as you level up, but it's not like you go from getting 2 mana a turn to 20. At level 8 Gideon already gets +2(max) for white matches so I'm thinking a fully leveled Gideon probably gets on average between 1-3 extra mana per turn. Not a huge difference when we're talking about spells that cost 20+ mana. And, while this means you can cast your Hangarback Walkers earlier, it also means you'd be able to cast all your S-Tier 12 mana rares earlier too. And it still doesn't change the argument really; I'll take 2xRelic Seekers vs a single Hangarback Walker no matter what level I am.

Unknown

Yeah, the mythics are horrible. I mean, were they afraid Leap would be broken if it was a little better?
With good luck and some good creatures, you'll get your mana's worth... Maybe.
And don't get me started on Skaab Goliath, Infinite Obliteration, or Tragic Arrogance.
It seems they haven't really realized that mythics can be more than flashy.

Keegan

Keral_Keep wrote:

It seems they haven't really realized that mythics can be more than flashy.

Sure, and that's when we have to face the sad truth that this game is in search of making a profit for someone, and if you're not going to have ads you have to sell those booster packs to people chasing down Mythics who might not have the time or inclination to "earn" them. By the time you've figured out that you can't use most of them...

Keegan

Oh, and in reading over the description of the new Heroic Encounters with the caveat that I haven't played them yet, I'm guessing that to beat some of the objectives you need specific Mythics to do specific things, so for completeness of the game you'll eventually need those Mythics.

Unknown

One thing that is important is good stack management. Look at the board - do you see potential cascades? if so, stick your mythic to the top of the stack. If it looks horrible, prioritise low-cost creatures.

Avaraicious Dragon is nice if you can get him out early; he may cost 18, but he saves you three mana on every successive drawn card, so it's good economics.

shteev

Craigantlet wrote:

Avaraicious Dragon is nice if you can get him out early; he may cost 18, but he saves you three mana on every successive drawn card, so it's good economics.

Only if no-one turns him into a frog for 9 mana.

Unknown

shteev wrote:

Craigantlet wrote:

Avaraicious Dragon is nice if you can get him out early; he may cost 18, but he saves you three mana on every successive drawn card, so it's good economics.

Only if no-one turns him into a frog for 9 mana.

This is the AI we're talking about.

Unknown

Keral_Keep wrote:

And don't get me started on Skaab Goliath or Tragic Arrogance.
.

hooray for my 2 only mythics being utter ****

Enoc99

A mythic shouldn't be more powerful based upon its rarity alone, much like it is in the actual card game.

It is a bigger and wider effect or creature and unique compared to similar rares and/or lower rarities.

If you look in actual MTG, the majority of cards played are nonmythic. Depending on the deck it might not be a wide majority, but still.

As such, just because a mythic isn't playable in a generic deck of a certain color doesn't mean it isn't playable at all. Maybe a new deck archetype or planeswalker will take advantage of it? Maybe it will be most effective in certain non-PvP battles in the future? Who knows?

loroku

snjits wrote:

hooray for my 2 only mythics being utter ****

Also, as someone else said, keep in mind that at least in MPQ they had balance changes that have tipped scales wildly - something that was rare but **** suddenly became too good, etc. So it might be that these cards are good in the future (assuming the whole game lasts that long).

Hibernum_JC

ecoKady hit the nail on the head for the design of some Mythics - the goal is that they are much easier to use at higher Planeswalker levels than at low levels.

Of course, some Mythics are cheaper (with good reason), but the problem we run into if we make Mythics too cheap is that we want their effect to be strong (and mostly game-changing), so making cheap Mythics kind of defeats this purpose. This is not to say we won't have cheap Mythics in the future - just that the original design intent was that they are much easier to play with at high levels than at low levels.

As for Evolutionary Leap, I understand a bunch of folks find it bad - it's mana cost *is* high, but consideration was taken than it's a Green Mythic, and if any color has ways of matching more activated gems, it's Green.

Irgy

I have to say I like mythics that are over-costed but with powerful effects as a design approach a lot, lot, better than the "strictly better for the same cost at higher rarity" approach taken with Lightning Javelin vs Exquisite Firecraft and Separatist Voidmage vs Harbinger of the Tides (even post-nerf).

Some of the mythics are bad, but I'd rather that than be forced to play them. The ideal would be build-around cards that are situationally good and have a use but don't just get jammed into any deck.