Why doesnt scaling take number of covers into consideration?

Unknown

ive had the fortune to pull a 5 star Oml and SS from legendary tokens and in the transition to 4 stars they have **** everything up scaling-wise (as discussed ad nauseum) they arent equal to 4 star level 255 characters with full covers though, so why are they scaled the same way. A 5 star with one cover is maybe equal to a 166 3 star.

Warbringa

Well as far as match damage and health yes, but really they are even less useful than a good maxed 3*. There are over a dozen maxed 3* characters I would rather use than a 1 cover 5* character in both PvE and PvP.

chamber44

i LOVE fighting 1-3 covered 5*'s with my 3* roster.

I'm not being sarcastic.

Jarvind

chamber44 wrote:

i LOVE fighting 1-3 covered 5*'s with my 3* roster.

I'm not being sarcastic.

Seconded. Finding a 1-blue-cover Surfer at 500ish is music to my...eyes, I guess? I like it, is the point I'm making.

HaywireII

Isn't the scaling test that's supposed to take place during the venom heroic going to take number of covers into account?

Malcrof

HaywireII wrote:

Isn't the scaling test that's supposed to take place during the venom heroic going to take number of covers into account?

Yes

tanis3303

Greeeaaattttt....that's going to absolutely screw me over. It's going to see my 4, 5 and 6 cover 5*s and consider me a "softcapper" isn't it? I'm keeping them unleveled not because of some attempt to game the system, but because the 5* game, to me, is boring as hell, and not a game I even want to play. If they force it on me with their new scaling, I'm not sure I'll continue playing.

Malcrof

tanis3303 wrote:

Greeeaaattttt....that's going to absolutely screw me over. It's going to see my 4, 5 and 6 cover 5*s and consider me a "softcapper" isn't it? I'm keeping them unleveled not because of some attempt to game the system, but because the 5* game, to me, is boring as hell, and not a game I even want to play. If they force it on me with their new scaling, I'm not sure I'll continue playing.

This is a great point, going to pass this along, i don't think 5*s should count.. as they cost loads of iso to level, and some just aren't ready

TxMoose

when I pulled my last stockpile of LTs my OML went from 2/-/- to 2/-/2 and went from marginally useful for some strikes and match damage...to kills himself if anyone uses an ability. so, yeah, my 4-cover OML is completely useless - unless its seed teams I'd rather have nearly any 3* over him. made the mistake once of taking on a real match where I thought a seed should be with him and SS and didn't pay attn. (was speeding through things) and I did manage to transform him, but he had already lost so much health that he didn't last long transformed. which covers make such a huge difference I'm not sure how effective the scaling thing could be even for 4*s. a 3/5/3 xfw is immensely more functional than a 5/3/5. rulk is even more drastic - 5/5/1 nearly useless (other than green denial/battery) but a -/1/5 is very useful. lots of questions - they looking at the entire roster or just the top? how do they differentiate 'intentionally soft capped' from 'trying to level my guys but no iso to do so'?

Eddiemon

Malcrof wrote:

tanis3303 wrote:

Greeeaaattttt....that's going to absolutely screw me over. It's going to see my 4, 5 and 6 cover 5*s and consider me a "softcapper" isn't it? I'm keeping them unleveled not because of some attempt to game the system, but because the 5* game, to me, is boring as hell, and not a game I even want to play. If they force it on me with their new scaling, I'm not sure I'll continue playing.

This is a great point, going to pass this along, i don't think 5*s should count.. as they cost loads of iso to level, and some just aren't ready

But a fully covered 5 star even at 255 is a force to be reckoned with.

Heck people use a single cover Phoenix or OML if the cover provides regeneration so being completely blind to 5 stars just changes how we need to exploit the scaling algorithm.

If you have a 5 or 6 cover 5 star sitting around, unless it is a 1/0/5 surfer you have serious firepower in your roster. The fact that you're choosing not to level it doesn't change that fact.

Also given that 2 star rosters who luck into a 5 star cover use it in PvP because it is seriously way beyond anything else in their roster. Should other 2 star players who haven't gotten lucky now be fodder because the 5 star is invisible to matchmaking?

Toning down single cover 5 star scaling is good, but making the system blind to them is rife with exploits.

Unknown

Eddiemon wrote:

Malcrof wrote:

tanis3303 wrote:

Greeeaaattttt....that's going to absolutely screw me over. It's going to see my 4, 5 and 6 cover 5*s and consider me a "softcapper" isn't it? I'm keeping them unleveled not because of some attempt to game the system, but because the 5* game, to me, is boring as hell, and not a game I even want to play. If they force it on me with their new scaling, I'm not sure I'll continue playing.

This is a great point, going to pass this along, i don't think 5*s should count.. as they cost loads of iso to level, and some just aren't ready

But a fully covered 5 star even at 255 is a force to be reckoned with.

Heck people use a single cover Phoenix or OML if the cover provides regeneration so being completely blind to 5 stars just changes how we need to exploit the scaling algorithm.

If you have a 5 or 6 cover 5 star sitting around, unless it is a 1/0/5 surfer you have serious firepower in your roster. The fact that you're choosing not to level it doesn't change that fact.

Also given that 2 star rosters who luck into a 5 star cover use it in PvP because it is seriously way beyond anything else in their roster. Should other 2 star players who haven't gotten lucky now be fodder because the 5 star is invisible to matchmaking?

Toning down single cover 5 star scaling is good, but making the system blind to them is rife with exploits.

Well my 1/0/2 OML is useless without a yellow cover. Maybe something that takes into effect having at least 1 of every color.

Eddiemon

Whopperdown wrote:

Well my 1/0/2 OML is useless without a yellow cover. Maybe something that takes into effect having at least 1 of every color.

Well that just encourages people to build a Logan who lacks black or red so it is invisible. Or run riot with a 5/5/0 Hulkbuster that the algorithm can't see.

As soon as you add a deliberate blind spot to an algorithm people will exploit the tinkyitty out of it unfortunately.

TxMoose

Eddiemon wrote:

Whopperdown wrote:

Well my 1/0/2 OML is useless without a yellow cover. Maybe something that takes into effect having at least 1 of every color.

Well that just encourages people to build a Logan who lacks black or red so it is invisible. Or run riot with a 5/5/0 Hulkbuster that the algorithm can't see.

As soon as you add a deliberate blind spot to an algorithm people will exploit the tinkyitty out of it unfortunately.

I'd love to run a 5/5/0 hb with a 0/5/5 rulk with scaling that can't see them - unfortunately my roster is past that, but that pair would be 95% effective (or more) without the hb blue/rulk red covers.

Orion

Isn't this going to completely crush the soft cappers? First championing comes out and now this. D3 really, really, really wants you to level up your characters. Although I'm tired of competing in PvE against someone with cover-maxed 3*s and 4*s where everyone is level 120.

SnowcaTT

Well before 5*'s, I've often wondered aloud here why scaling doesn't just discount the top "X" number of your characters and go from there. It probably would benefit soft-cappers to much - they could max a couple of 4*'s and just go from there.

Now I think scaling/MMR ignoring to top of your roster equal to the number of 5*'s in existence (currently four) would be great.

Low-levels: you get a couple of 5*'s? They are ignored, it looks at your next few (166+ or whatever your highest 4* is).

High-levels: you have 5*'s? Either your top four 270's are ignored (your scaling goes to the base 5*'s, 255) or your top 5*'s are ignored (your scaling goes to next max, 270+)

Side benefit: the 5* players are "only" scaled to all of their 270+++'s, you don't have to further "fix" the game to make characters continue to scale up past 395.

OneLastGambit

Whopperdown wrote:

Eddiemon wrote:

Malcrof wrote:

tanis3303 wrote:

Greeeaaattttt....that's going to absolutely screw me over. It's going to see my 4, 5 and 6 cover 5*s and consider me a "softcapper" isn't it? I'm keeping them unleveled not because of some attempt to game the system, but because the 5* game, to me, is boring as hell, and not a game I even want to play. If they force it on me with their new scaling, I'm not sure I'll continue playing.

This is a great point, going to pass this along, i don't think 5*s should count.. as they cost loads of iso to level, and some just aren't ready

But a fully covered 5 star even at 255 is a force to be reckoned with.

Heck people use a single cover Phoenix or OML if the cover provides regeneration so being completely blind to 5 stars just changes how we need to exploit the scaling algorithm.

If you have a 5 or 6 cover 5 star sitting around, unless it is a 1/0/5 surfer you have serious firepower in your roster. The fact that you're choosing not to level it doesn't change that fact.

Also given that 2 star rosters who luck into a 5 star cover use it in PvP because it is seriously way beyond anything else in their roster. Should other 2 star players who haven't gotten lucky now be fodder because the 5 star is invisible to matchmaking?

Toning down single cover 5 star scaling is good, but making the system blind to them is rife with exploits.

Well my 1/0/2 OML is useless without a yellow cover. Maybe something that takes into effect having at least 1 of every color.

Fyi pair him with KK and you're fine, I do it with my no yellow Logan all the time.

SnowcaTT

Eddiemon wrote:

If you have a 5 or 6 cover 5 star sitting around, unless it is a 1/0/5 surfer you have serious firepower in your roster. The fact that you're choosing not to level it doesn't change that fact.

My level 255 0/4/1 Phoenix and 4/0/0 surfer remain very, very sad.

wymtime

Malcrof wrote:

HaywireII wrote:

Isn't the scaling test that's supposed to take place during the venom heroic going to take number of covers into account?

Yes

Actually they announced they are pushing back the scaling test to March. The reality is they are working in scaling and MMR in PVP. Overall this system has been a lot more sensitive than anyone would have thought possible and the slightest tweet has caused havoc sometimes. I think soft capers are going to get hit hard with the new scaling though as they want a I encourage players to level their characters more.

pheregas

Malcrof wrote:

tanis3303 wrote:

Greeeaaattttt....that's going to absolutely screw me over. It's going to see my 4, 5 and 6 cover 5*s and consider me a "softcapper" isn't it? I'm keeping them unleveled not because of some attempt to game the system, but because the 5* game, to me, is boring as hell, and not a game I even want to play. If they force it on me with their new scaling, I'm not sure I'll continue playing.

This is a great point, going to pass this along, i don't think 5*s should count.. as they cost loads of iso to level, and some just aren't ready

Second this. Hope it pans out. I'd like a few more covers on my 5's before leveling them. And right now, all available Iso is going into leveling/champing 4*s.

Eddiemon

SnowcaTT wrote:

Well before 5*'s, I've often wondered aloud here why scaling doesn't just discount the top "X" number of your characters and go from there. It probably would benefit soft-cappers to much - they could max a couple of 4*'s and just go from there.

Now I think scaling/MMR ignoring to top of your roster equal to the number of 5*'s in existence (currently four) would be great.

Low-levels: you get a couple of 5*'s? They are ignored, it looks at your next few (166+ or whatever your highest 4* is).

High-levels: you have 5*'s? Either your top four 270's are ignored (your scaling goes to the base 5*'s, 255) or your top 5*'s are ignored (your scaling goes to next max, 270+)

Side benefit: the 5* players are "only" scaled to all of their 270+++'s, you don't have to further "fix" the game to make characters continue to scale up past 395.

But the low level who got some 5*s is now playing against low levels with two massive bullied on their team. That's not good. And at the High Level I can max my 5 stars and only ever face the scaling of 4 stars.

Two better solutions I think.

1. Forget rosters, base all scaling decisions on past performance. If someone isn't placing high in PvP then lower their MMR. If they are then raise their MMR. Same for PvE, peopel who place well have their sclaing raised and people who don't have them reduced.

Your roster quality will determine to an extent how well you do, and if my MMR is low for my roster, who cares as long as I'm not beating people out for positions.

People might tank some events to lower their MMR to get an edge in other events, but by tanking events you are letting others get the rewards, so I don't think anyone is losing out here or being treated unfairly.

2. Let you 'vault' rostered characters. Any character you vault can't be used for any events that start while they are vaulted, but also gets completely ignored when calculating scaling/mmr for that event. So you can vault all your 5 stars and collect them away without them negatively affecting your or anyone else's playing experience. Vaulted characters would still appear in your roster and take up a roster slot, so you don't gain any advantage this way.

I don't think there is any way you can abuse this one. Your MMR would be based on who you can use.

tanis3303

Yea, for reference, my 5*s are 2/1/2 Pheonix (she's almost ready for levels, I know this...I just don't want to, because honestly I find them boring. If I wanted to simply match gems to win every game, I'd go play Candy Crush) The other two, while I DO have a good # of covers in them, are completely useless outside of high match damage, and well...see above. They are 3/0/1 OML and 1/1/3 Surfer. Yuck.

At the end of the day tho, even if I had a 5/3/5 OML I'm still not sure I'd want to level him. I find the gameplay at the 3 and 4* level much, MUCH more engaging, if some new algorithm see that I HAVE these characters and matches me vs nothing but high level 5* teams, I'm not gonna be a happy camper...