5*, maybe the problem is 4*

wirius

I've seen the issue plenty of times these last few weeks, "5*'s end game progression bad, so long, losing hope, etc." I've been scratching my head at this because I viewed 5*'s as an elusive korean grind that would take 400-500 LT's to get. So why so much emphasis on it? Why so many player complaints? Could it be because the 4* meta is so short and pointless?

Hear me out. Currently it seems you get two 4*'s you like, then you ride that in pvp forever. You may get more 4* covers, but do you care? You're not going to use them because many are simply far inferior to the top tier 4*'s, and the iso to level 4*'s is borderline insanity. Result? The only real improvement you see is 5*'s, so that becomes your emphasis regardless of the other 4*'s you may lack. Maybe the problem isn't 5*'s the problem is 4* land is unimportant once you have the two you need.

So how to fix this? Should the devs fix the broken 4*'s? Cut Iso leveling costs? Implement 4* only Pvp's like they do with the 3*s? What are your thoughts?

OnesOwnGrief

My problem with the game is that there is no real endgame. There's nothing in which actually tests your roster. You just continue the cycle of PvP for points/rank and PvE for points/rank. We've been doing the exact same thing since the game came out. I'm sure there are a few of us who was just bored until they dropped Ultron for the very first time. I was genuinely excited for it. Until the next Alliance event, it's just the same ol' grind every day. I'm honestly debating on dropping the game for a season at this point. I have all I need really.

wirius

OnesOwnGrief wrote:

My problem with the game is that there is no real endgame. There's nothing in which actually tests your roster. You just continue the cycle of PvP for points/rank and PvE for points/rank. We've been doing the exact same thing since the game came out. I'm sure there are a few of us who was just bored until they dropped Ultron for the very first time. I was genuinely excited for it. Until the next Alliance event, it's just the same ol' grind every day. I'm honestly debating on dropping the game for a season at this point. I have all I need really.

That seems in line with what I'm getting at. There's no real reason to have a lot of 4*'s. Having lots of strong 3*'s is good because of the way the game's pvp works. But what real advantage or game use do you get out of more than 2 main top tier 4*'s? Would you be more excited if they had the a 4* focussed pvp along side the 3* focussed one? What if more of the 4*'s were balanced better, or not as far away from 5* power?

PeterGibbons316

OnesOwnGrief wrote:

My problem with the game is that there is no real endgame. There's nothing in which actually tests your roster. You just continue the cycle of PvP for points/rank and PvE for points/rank. We've been doing the exact same thing since the game came out. I'm sure there are a few of us who was just bored until they dropped Ultron for the very first time. I was genuinely excited for it. Until the next Alliance event, it's just the same ol' grind every day. I'm honestly debating on dropping the game for a season at this point. I have all I need really.

I agree with this. I wouldn't mind a true grindfest that required 400-500 LTs if there was some type of repeatable end-game content that could earn LTs as a reward. The biggest problem with the game is the fixed number of rewards that can't be surpassed with grinding - only spending.

Dauthi

You are definitely hitting a point that needs to be addressed Wirius. The difference between the bottom 4* characters and the top 4* characters is night and day. Serious balancing is needed, and if all 4*s were on Hulkbuster/Iceman level, it would help a lot with the 4*/5* division.

For how hard it is to approach the 4* level, I still can't believe we have characters that are as bad as bagman there.

DrStrange-616

I whinged about this earlier. There are only a handful of 4*s worth investing in so the focus quickly shifts to the interminable 5* game where I have to rely on luck and work endlessly for enough ISO to inch them up.

Polares

I guess you are probably right. Now that I have 80% of the 4s covered (top10 included), I don't care about 4s anymore, just the 5s.

For me I think the biggest problem is iso. They are so hard to level max, I have almost all good ones around 190-220 level (with 3 of them 270+), but from 220 to 270 it is still a ton of iso, so I basically use the same 4 all the time. There are a lot of combinations I have not even tried because the chars are underleveled, so why care. Of course with 3s it was not like that, I had all the good ones max leveled or very close to it.

And now, I can't champion all those 4s when I get covers for them, from 220 you still need like 200k iso, so when I get new covers is just 1000 iso, I can't level them in 12 days!!!. And I can't wait to max all the chars before opening the LTs because If I wait I won't be able to cover the 5s that I need, which are more important than leveling a 4.

Bowgentle

No, the 4*s aren't the problem.
Even if all of them were JG/Creepsicle/HB/Rhulk/Cyke tier, 5*s still would stroll over them.

So while having more good 4*s gives you more people to level, you're still waiting on 5* covers to progress.

The underlying problem is still the randomness of LTs.
Some people drawing 4% from 150+ tokens, while others are drawing the advertised 10% is a difference of 9 covers.
A difference you're never going to make up.

Malcrof

wirius wrote:

I've seen the issue plenty of times these last few weeks, "5*'s end game progression bad, so long, losing hope, etc." I've been scratching my head at this because I viewed 5*'s as an elusive korean grind that would take 400-500 LT's to get. So why so much emphasis on it? Why so many player complaints? Could it be because the 4* meta is so short and pointless?

Here me out. Currently it seems you get two 4*'s you like, then you ride that in pvp forever. You may get more 4* covers, but do you care? You're not going to use them because many are simply far inferior to the top tier 4*'s, and the iso to level 4*'s is borderline insanity. Result? The only real improvement you see is 5*'s, so that becomes your emphasis regardless of the other 4*'s you may lack. Maybe the problem isn't 5*'s the problem is 4* land is unimportant once you have the two you need.

So how to fix this? Should the devs fix the broken 4*'s? Cut Iso leveling costs? Implement 4* only Pvp's like they do with the 3*s? What are your thoughts?

Cutting the leveling costs of 4*s would be grand! There are loads i would love to use, but so starved for iso it's not funny. I fall into the category of only having 2 maxed (JG and IMHB, both champed) and 1 @ 250 (Rulk), but so many others max covered who would love to be in the rotation.

I actually am finding that with my OML , i have been using Psylocke when boosted, or other 3*s with fast abilities when boosted (beast and IF rock the house!), to get strikes out quickly, over 4*s that are underleveled.. and am saving iso to max level more 3*s to champ over leveling 4*s... which is another oddity..

Most of the 4*s are fine power wise, and some deadly combo's many may never think of until they have to fight them.. (GR/Falcap comes to mind.. damage piles up fast, and with OML healing, GR black can 1 shot my OML @ lvl 345 much to my dismay)

Nova is going to be the new meta w/ OML i think, quick cheap fast powers that put out strikes.. so expect teams to change soon. But, some of the older 4*s are much more useful than people give them credit for..

An example.. i don't take many offensive losses in PVP, as i tend to skip teams i know i can't beat.. so , when i see Elektra/Venom with an underleveled Punisher in Pun PVP, i figured easy target, even though elektra was champed.. Well, Elektra decided to steal all of OML and Puns strikes, then got her black and red out.. AFTER Venom had strengthened my tiles for me.. ballet was doing close to 4k per turn at one point, venom yellow is nasty business to begin with.. Psylocke died first.. then Punisher, and i had only managed to down Punisher and get the other 2 down to 1/4 health... thought i still had it.. Nope.. not even close... No massive ai cascades or anything, just plain old got my **** kicked...

Never underestimate anyone, they are all useful, max boosted Miles is already an insta skip for me, so tired of him going invis and taking an hour to kill. Kingpin and 4Thor like to play spoiler, and can hit HARD. The only one who never seems to do anything is Reed.

In PVP, here are the ones i see the most though : XDP, Thing, IMHB, JG, Rulk, KP, 4Thor, and many times Starlord, especially when the 3* required is someone like Punisher who has cheap skills and is paired with Falcap to accelerate SL's red and purple damage cd's

This is why i want to max them all.. Just over 6 million iso needed though.. going to take a bit.

GrumpySmurf1002

OnesOwnGrief wrote:

My problem with the game is that there is no real endgame. There's nothing in which actually tests your roster. You just continue the cycle of PvP for points/rank and PvE for points/rank. We've been doing the exact same thing since the game came out. I'm sure there are a few of us who was just bored until they dropped Ultron for the very first time. I was genuinely excited for it. Until the next Alliance event, it's just the same ol' grind every day. I'm honestly debating on dropping the game for a season at this point. I have all I need really.

This is where I'm at, except for the dropping the game part.

5* characters are really a whatever. If they start putting PvP progression rewards at 3k, maybe I'll care, but it's not like they're necessary to get all the prog. rewards from PvP or PvE. It's just something to aim for in a sea of nothing to aim for.

This game is horribly starved for content. And no, the new PvEs with some dialogue and the same poop mechanic is not "new content." Ultron for all its initial failures was at least something in the realm of new. DDQ was new. Gauntlet at one time was new. Those all were huge things that people got excited about. Then Galactus! Oh that's just Ultron with a different boss. Boo.

How does a game have a situation where if you're competitive, you literally can't play (because PvE timers are refreshing and you're shielded).

The problem is the money makers are new characters, so that's where they put the efforts of their skeletal staff. No Arena with random teams (like in Gems of War), no gameplay challenges like MTGPQ has for their 'story' mode, just the same nonsense day in and day out.

Edit: Oh, and yeah fix the Iso drought already. Maybe with a new gameplay mode, just a thought.

mpqr7

Yes, that's the main challenge. I loved the 2* game, because I could go from 0 covers to fully maxed in a few days.

With the 3* game, it was more challenging, but once ddq arrived, I was fully covering and maxing a new 3* about once per week, two weeks at most.

But with 4*s, it can take a year or more to get it fully covered, and even at that point, it takes around 1 - 2 months to champion it. One to Two months!!! And they release a new one every two weeks!

So it's hard to get too excited about many 4*s, because they just take sooooooo long to become useful.

TheOncomingStorm

Dauthi wrote:

You are definitely hitting a point that needs to be addressed Wirius. The difference between the bottom 4* characters and the top 4* characters is night and day. Serious balancing is needed, and if all 4*s were on Hulkbuster/Iceman level, it would help a lot with the 4*/5* division.

For how hard it is to approach the 4* level, I still can't believe we have characters that are as bad as bagman there.

There are a lot of long time issues that continue to be neglected.

1) 20 iso rewards and critical damage boosts in pve. Let's face it. At this point, it is insulting that this has not been addressed in 2+ years. I have no clue how reasonable people think this is not an embarrassment to the game.

2) The absurd time requirements to make genuine progress on a weekly basis. Most console games don't require as much time.

3) Character balancing. It feels like it's been a year since the last significant one. #absenteelandlord

4) Full 4* placement rewards structure for pve and pvp. I could also say 4* featured pvps, but the reality is both are signs the basic gameplay features have not evolved in the same timely fashion as the number of characters that have been introduced into the game. How far behind? With 5*s the new meta, we should be discussing 5* placement rewards at 1000 and for 1st, not still waiting for a 4* meta that becomes more obsolete with each "buyers club. "

The new one is game progression being based solely on iap and luck. Players put in time and effort. Their reward? You might attain progression in the game, you might have simply wasted your time. How does that make sense or give players satisfaction?

Let's make a new game. Developers work all week, then on Friday, they have a 5% chance of getting paid that week. What? It's "fun", so they should jump at the chance to get compensated for their work this way. -_-

While mpq continues to make great and significant improvements to the game, at some point, all these issues really need to be addressed.

simonsez

wirius wrote:

I've seen the issue plenty of times these last few weeks, "5*'s end game progression bad, so long, losing hope, etc." I've been scratching my head at this because I viewed 5*'s as an elusive korean grind that would take 400-500 LT's to get. So why so much emphasis on it?

Because if I'm trying to find a target in PvP, there are plenty of times when my options are a 5* team that will kick my ****, or a 30 pt target that'll cost me net points when they retaliate.

And this isn't the first time someone has mischaracterized people's 5* complaints. For the most part, people aren't complaining it takes too long. The problem is that it's grossly imbalanced as a function of luck. I couldn't care less if the 5* progress rate was a cover a month, so long as that rate applied to everyone. I'm in no hurry. What frustrates people is when they're no longer able to compete on an even level, despite their best efforts, through no fault of their own.

wirius

simonsez wrote:

wirius wrote:

I've seen the issue plenty of times these last few weeks, "5*'s end game progression bad, so long, losing hope, etc." I've been scratching my head at this because I viewed 5*'s as an elusive korean grind that would take 400-500 LT's to get. So why so much emphasis on it?

Because if I'm trying to find a target in PvP, there are plenty of times when my options are a 5* team that will kick my ****, or a 30 pt target that'll cost me net points when they retaliate.

And this isn't the first time someone has mischaracterized people's 5* complaints. For the most part, people aren't complaining it takes too long. The problem is that it's grossly imbalanced as a function of luck. I couldn't care less if the 5* progress rate was a cover a month, so long as that rate applied to everyone. I'm in no hurry. What frustrates people is when they're no longer able to compete on an even level, despite their best efforts, through no fault of their own.

The developers had stated that they would increase 4* power once 5*'s began to hit a certain distribution level. Maybe that level has arrived.

Vhailorx

There's clearly more than one problem!

(1) wirius is right that there are structural problems with the 4* tier. Given how hard it is to cover a 4*, there needs to be a smaller gap from worst to best. Getting 6 extra JG or rhulk covers is game changing; but getting 6 extra TAHulk covers is basically worthless. This was a problem in the old 3* days too, but those covers came much faster which mitigated the problem.

(2) polares is right that iso is a huge problem. Championing creates a strong incentive to max characters, but there isn't nearly enough iso in the game to max everyone in anything like a reasonable timeframe. Even maxing half a 4* roster would cost millions of iso. And the marginal value added from 220-270 is in no way commensurate with the iso cost.

(3) everyone else is also right that 5*s are a problem. Super hard-to-get trophy characters are a find end-game chase. But 5*s are also game-breakingingpy powerful. A maxed OML absolutely melts the meta (even before championing). And that dynamic doesn't mix well with the RNG distribution system. One player might open 50 leg tokens and get an 0/2/2 SS, which doesn't do mocu good for anyone. Someone else might open 10 leg tokens and get a 1/2/1 OML that will carry them through all game modes for the foreseeable future. There's just too much variance in outcomes.

I suspect that the devs will say that championing is the power boost to 4*a that they were talking about last September. But I would argue that It isn't much of a solution, since championing a 4* to hear 5* power levels is arguably just as hard as getting a 5*.

GrumpySmurf1002

aesthetocyst wrote:

Maxchamping a 4* takes acquiring 13 4* covers, which is much easier than getting multiple 5*s, sure, but still often requires months (or great luck), and then you must add 1 month's hard play worth of iso ... and up to 100 more 4* covers....which will tkae a typical players years...just to get that 4* up to the subbasement of 5* land.

Honestly, the time to champion a 4* wouldn't be that big a deal if 5* were stuck at 450. At least you'd eventually get there.

A 550 5* laughs at a 370 4*. So they gave us the carrot to catch up to 5* progression if you fall behind the luck curve, but then they ate the carrot and left us chasing the end of a fishing line.

SnowcaTT

wirius wrote:

Hear me out. Currently it seems you get two 4*'s you like, then you ride that in pvp forever. You may get more 4* covers, but do you care? You're not going to use them because many are simply far inferior to the top tier 4*'s, and the iso to level 4*'s is borderline insanity. Result? The only real improvement you see is 5*'s, so that becomes your emphasis regardless of the other 4*'s you may lack. Maybe the problem isn't 5*'s the problem is 4* land is unimportant once you have the two you need.

This this this. I've posted several times how 4* progression was impossible (to get specific covers) - and I still think it's even harder now than ever, you can't buy specific covers, and specific ones aren't given out much.

BUT - champion day came! And all those DDQ's I failed last time with 1/1/2's or whatever....I fixed that. I have two six cover and two seven cover 4*'s as my lowest two beyond Venom/Miles...every one will be passible with DDQ. As they come up, I'll move them to level 172...that's where I've camped most, they win DDQ there.

AND - to agree with OP, that is where they are going to stay. ISO costs to move them up are absolutely ridiculous. I firmly believe you move up the top few 4*'s you get (Jean/HB/Ice/Rhulk/Cyc....maybe Thing/DPXF) and you should hold the rest of your ISO for the 5* covers you'll eventually get by the time you'd be able to level those 4*'s with ISO.

(Still think 5*'s and the RNG nature of them specifically are ruining the game)

Vhailorx

Back when 5*s were first announced and people were flipping out of the insane health/match damage levels, I was one of those arguing that, while it was a big change, it was also too early to say that it was gamebreaking because there would be plenty of time for demiurge to tinker with the 4* tier and keep things balanced.

But now it's no longer too early. Demiurge hasn't made significant changes to the 4* power level, and the champion system is a net negative in that 550 5*s are crazy powerful even relative to 450s. 5*s are arguably more meta-melting than they appeared to be when first announced.

simonsez

wirius wrote:

The developers had stated that they would increase 4* power once 5*'s began to hit a certain distribution level. Maybe that level has arrived.

... and you don't think championing is what they were talking about?

cyineedsn

simonsez wrote:

wirius wrote:

The developers had stated that they would increase 4* power once 5*'s began to hit a certain distribution level. Maybe that level has arrived.

... and you don't think championing is what they were talking about?

Good question, how many champ levels do we need before 4*s start being competitive with 5*s?

rkd80

The issue is precisely what Bowgentle said.

The way I look at it, is this: Whaling always allowed you to save time. Money = time. It always worked like that in MPQ. Did not want to collect covers and grind? Fine, buy it. But eventually everyone still got to the same destination.

Now, $$ buys something that you simply cannot ever get. Why? Because to smooth out the RNG you need about 400-600 LTs, since you can only conceivably earn 15-20 a month through daily multi-hour grind it will take several years to achieve the same thing, it becomes so long as to basically not exist. To say nothing of the fact that every additional 5* will raise the total number of LTs by about 130 in order to achieve proper distribution. Moving Silver Surfer into the CP only category further compounds the problem by now making SS basically uncollectable by the vast majority of the population. That is why it is all broken.