Discussion on the Balance Changes Feedback Thread

woopie

At this point I'm just assuming the team at Demiurge all look like this.

Unknown

woopie wrote:

At this point I'm just assuming the team at Demiurge all look like this.

I was wondering how long it would take before someone posted that in here lol.

simonsez

woopie wrote:

At this point I'm just assuming the team at Demiurge all look like this.

Come on, we've seen the videos... they're not as cute as that...

woopie

simonsez wrote:

woopie wrote:

At this point I'm just assuming the team at Demiurge all look like this.

Come on, we've seen the videos... they're not as cute as that...

How about this one? Certainly would explain 3 Spidey characters in a row.

Unknown

I'm a two-star to three-star transitioner, still relying heavily on my two-stars. I can't say much by way of hard data, but I do know that ever since the balance changes happened, it's become increasing harder in PVE rather than easier, by championing my two-stars. I don't mean that in a goon levels way, but in the fact that this 'performance based scaling' apparently doesn't take in to account how many times you die in a node. I don't mind the general nerf, but I used to actually be able to play PVE and was getting to the point where I could use some three-stars while not having to use up all of my health packs. Now I can't even defeat the final node without boots, and sometimes even with boosts.

I know the heroics are generally not a good way to judge these things, but I actually enjoy heroics. Less people played and I had fun with new combinations. But I've tried the final node in the second sub at least six times now with different teams and died every time without killing off a single enemy. Except the last time, when I boosted as much as I could and managed to kill one of them before dying yet again, and this is with some of my best characters. I prefer being able to beat things without boosting, but if I can't even do it with boosting than the nerf has hindered much more than the championing has been able to help. I still need every token I get, so I didn't have a stockpile to instantly level my two stars back to where they were before the nerf. And this is with not getting the legendary token or grinding since Miles came out, so presumably short of not playing at all, I shouldn't be screwing up my scaling by doing too well.

Like, PVP is lost to me regardless at this point, but if you're going to nerf the whole of my party, could you at least do something with the scaling to reflect that?

Argon Flame

Firstly: Champions, great idea.

But

What it looks like is that the theory of unintended consequences has kicked in. When you add the ability to champion it changes a lot of dynamics:
PvE scaling
PvP scaling
Character skill/match damage
The iso economy

I think if you ask anyone most will say they agree with my first statement and champions are great. But then the unseen and unknown dynamics kick in and asking users to qualify or quantify those changes seems terrible.

The rational players amongst us will accept if you tell us that you hadn't considered all the impacts. Letting us know that you are looking at rectifying or clarifying specific details also would help.

Sent from the middle of the great iso desert.

MPQ_Daywalker

Pylgrim wrote:

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

Arondite wrote:

Yes, boosted Thor was positively neutered. One of the worst that I've seen yet, actually. It's hard for me to remember precisely, but I want to say his yellow and green did about 4K and 7K+3.5K+3.K. Now, boosted + championed he was getting like 3.1K and 5.8K+2.9K+2.9K. Just not good.

That's boosted though, which is a bug. Unless it's not. Then it could be. But still probably not. However don't address those here, in case it's a bug.

The more infuriating thing is that the very day the released championing we asked the question "are the significantly weakened boosted characters representative of champions at that level?", a simple yes/no question. If they had answered it in all these days ever since, we could have saved tons of speculation, confusion, anger and guesswork. Going with the puzzlingly vague and corporate "there is a bug with boosted characters" has damaged championing's reception instead of helping.

So R92 is out now, and my boosted champions appear to do exactly the same damage as they did in R91. So either (A) the reduced damage for boosted characters was not a bug, or (B) it is a bug, but they didn't fix it in time for R92. Would be really nice to find out the answer. D3/Demiurge?

bigwhoop

_Daywalker_ wrote:

Pylgrim wrote:

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

Arondite wrote:

Yes, boosted Thor was positively neutered. One of the worst that I've seen yet, actually. It's hard for me to remember precisely, but I want to say his yellow and green did about 4K and 7K+3.5K+3.K. Now, boosted + championed he was getting like 3.1K and 5.8K+2.9K+2.9K. Just not good.

That's boosted though, which is a bug. Unless it's not. Then it could be. But still probably not. However don't address those here, in case it's a bug.

The more infuriating thing is that the very day the released championing we asked the question "are the significantly weakened boosted characters representative of champions at that level?", a simple yes/no question. If they had answered it in all these days ever since, we could have saved tons of speculation, confusion, anger and guesswork. Going with the puzzlingly vague and corporate "there is a bug with boosted characters" has damaged championing's reception instead of helping.

So R92 is out now, and my boosted champions appear to do exactly the same damage as they did in R91. So either (A) the reduced damage for boosted characters was not a bug, or (B) it is a bug, but they didn't fix it in time for R92. Would be really nice to find out the answer. D3/Demiurge?

I believe David mentioned that the fix will be in R94. He said it somewhere in the forums.

optimus2861

They already said, over in the Bugs forum, that it's unlikely to be fixed until at least R94. So we're stuck with this nerf bat for several more weeks yet. But of course they can't tone down the goons or the scaling to compensate, nosireee..

The inconsistency of what they can & can't, or will & won't, change on short notice is really puzzling. They took a nerf bat to 1* Venom to eliminate his insta-kill very quickly after Miles was released. Like in a, "Oh **** we never wanted that to happen, kill it, KILLITWITHFIRE!" kind of hurry. If they can do that, why can't they fix this in an equally rapid & timely fashion?

David [Hi-Fi] Moore

Hello everyone,

Last week I asked the moderators to assist with putting up a post where players could offer their impressions on the recent balance changes around Champions. We aren't asking for hard numbers (this was a misunderstanding), but simply your thoughts regarding any characters you feel seem over or under-powered after the balancing.

The designers at Demiurge are keeping an eye on how the changes are being received. Exact balancing numbers are not being provided at this time.

Thanks.

David [Hi-Fi] Moore

bigwhoop wrote:

I believe David mentioned that the fix will be in R94. He said it somewhere in the forums.

Yes. The way the updates are scheduled and go out for approvals, the soonest the fix for boosted characters can go out is the R94 update.

Pylgrim

"David wrote:

Moore"]Hello everyone,

Last week I asked the moderators to assist with putting up a post where players could offer their impressions on the recent balance changes around Champions. We aren't asking for hard numbers (this was a misunderstanding), but simply your thoughts regarding any characters you feel seem over or under-powered after the balancing.

The designers at Demiurge are keeping an eye on how the changes are being received. Exact balancing numbers are not being provided at this time.

Thanks.

David, please, for a whole week we have been pleading, demanding, imploring for a clear answer on the matter "what of all the changes is intended and what is bug?". It is a very simple question and we CANNOT provide you good feedback until we know what to expect. If there were subtle rebalancing character by character, for example, it is invisible to us because ALL 2* and 3* were hugely nerfed in match damage and ability damage when pushed beyond their max levels by either championing or weekly/event buffs.

We have been saying this for a week, I don't understand why you need more feedback while still withholding vital information, but here it is again, a direct answer to your question: ALL 2* and 3* characters feel underpowered. 4* characters feel overpowered but I'm sure that just my impression from having to battle them with my underpowered 3*s.

Please don't tell us that after dropping by to simply reword a question and provide no answers, you'll be gone for another week.

CaptainFreaky

Pylgrim wrote:

"David wrote:

Moore"]Hello everyone,

Last week I asked the moderators to assist with putting up a post where players could offer their impressions on the recent balance changes around Champions. We aren't asking for hard numbers (this was a misunderstanding), but simply your thoughts regarding any characters you feel seem over or under-powered after the balancing.

The designers at Demiurge are keeping an eye on how the changes are being received. Exact balancing numbers are not being provided at this time.

Thanks.

David, please, for a whole week we have been pleading, demanding, imploring for a clear answer on the matter "what of all the changes is intended and what is bug?". It is a very simple question and we CANNOT provide you good feedback until we know what to expect. If there were subtle rebalancing character by character, for example, it is invisible to us because ALL 2* and 3* were hugely nerfed in match damage and ability damage when pushed beyond their max levels by either championing or weekly/event buffs.

We have been saying this for a week, I don't understand why you need more feedback while still withholding vital information, but here it is again, a direct answer to your question: ALL 2* and 3* characters feel underpowered. 4* characters feel overpowered but I'm sure that just my impression from having to battle them with my underpowered 3*s.

Please don't tell us that after dropping by to simply reword a question and provide no answers, you'll be gone for another week.

+1000%
My feedback is that ALL 3* characters seem extremely under powered post R91 in the way I actually use them (ie as part of the weekly PVP or PVE boosted environment). We as users have no idea if this is a bug or intended and it's impossible to provide further feedback until this is clarified.

frostCoH

Ceridwen wrote:

I'm a two-star to three-star transitioner, still relying heavily on my two-stars. I can't say much by way of hard data, but I do know that ever since the balance changes happened, it's become increasing harder in PVE rather than easier, by championing my two-stars. I don't mean that in a goon levels way, but in the fact that this 'performance based scaling' apparently doesn't take in to account how many times you die in a node. I don't mind the general nerf, but I used to actually be able to play PVE and was getting to the point where I could use some three-stars while not having to use up all of my health packs. Now I can't even defeat the final node without boots, and sometimes even with boosts.

I know the heroics are generally not a good way to judge these things, but I actually enjoy heroics. Less people played and I had fun with new combinations. But I've tried the final node in the second sub at least six times now with different teams and died every time without killing off a single enemy. Except the last time, when I boosted as much as I could and managed to kill one of them before dying yet again, and this is with some of my best characters. I prefer being able to beat things without boosting, but if I can't even do it with boosting than the nerf has hindered much more than the championing has been able to help. I still need every token I get, so I didn't have a stockpile to instantly level my two stars back to where they were before the nerf. And this is with not getting the legendary token or grinding since Miles came out, so presumably short of not playing at all, I shouldn't be screwing up my scaling by doing too well.

Like, PVP is lost to me regardless at this point, but if you're going to nerf the whole of my party, could you at least do something with the scaling to reflect that?

Exactly.

scaling in this game must be fixed to make the game more enjoyable and less stressful

GrumpySmurf1002

"David wrote:

Moore"]

bigwhoop wrote:

I believe David mentioned that the fix will be in R94. He said it somewhere in the forums.

Yes. The way the updates are scheduled and go out for approvals, the soonest the fix for boosted characters can go out is the R94 update.

Thus, the soonest you're going to get anything remotely resembling worthwhile feedback is after R94.

Before that, it's all guess work as to what was a balance change and what was a bug. I guess you guys know, but since more than once it's been said "That's a bug, keep to topic" its just easier to say nothing until the dust settles.

Unknown

"David wrote:

Moore"]Hello everyone,

Last week I asked the moderators to assist with putting up a post where players could offer their impressions on the recent balance changes around Champions. We aren't asking for hard numbers (this was a misunderstanding), but simply your thoughts regarding any characters you feel seem over or under-powered after the balancing.

The designers at Demiurge are keeping an eye on how the changes are being received. Exact balancing numbers are not being provided at this time.

Thanks.

Thanks for this, David.

I was a bit dubious when I read the initial comments by other posters, and this is much more in line with what I was hoping you were asking for.

DBC

Pylgrim

And so, another week passed without any more information even though it's clear that there is no more "data" or feedback coming from us (because we can't). Wonder if next Monday (though more likely Tuesday or Wednesday) Hi-Fi will drop by to make further clarification to the question in lieu of providing any of use. This information embargo is ridiculous.

WelcomeDeath

"David wrote:

Moore"]Hello everyone,

Last week I asked the moderators to assist with putting up a post where players could offer their impressions on the recent balance changes around Champions. We aren't asking for hard numbers (this was a misunderstanding), but simply your thoughts regarding any characters you feel seem over or under-powered after the balancing.

The designers at Demiurge are keeping an eye on how the changes are being received. Exact balancing numbers are not being provided at this time.

Thanks.

I'm sorry....balancing? What balancing? You mean nerfing the entire 3* tier when boosted and changing the boosts so that now not only can 4* maxed not take on 5* maxed but 3 * maxed will have a much harder time with 4* maxed? Also, making champion increases for just a couple levels on 5* scale so ridiculous that a max 5* will have problems taking on a champion at level 500? How the **** is that balancing? Isn't that the total opposite?
Thank you devs, the player base really wanted a feature that made it impossible to progress without insane luck or money and you have delivered. Really, we did. Want to gather info on what people don't like about it? Should have read the forums beforehand and developed a feature that ACTUALLY did what it said it would do.
Want to know who the most annoying changes were? Well, let's see... stealth nerfing EVERY character in the game except those that are ridiculously OP in the first place. Umm...not at all what people wanted. I'm sure it awesome if you're at the top already, but it will get boring after a while. Champions were a great idea, but hasn't done what it said to this point

Linkster79

"David wrote:

Moore"]

The designers at Demiurge are keeping an eye on how the changes are being received. Exact balancing numbers are not being provided at this time.

Thanks.

Why not? If we as a group are determined enough I am sure it is possible to browse around all the rosters we can find and find out the numbers ourselves, not exactly a massive secret. I suspect the reasons why your employers are not providing you with the numbers, or prohibiting you from sharing them are 1. The developers are too busy to give them to you. 2. The developers have done such a hash job of the whole thing and changed so many things at once they didn't keep track of what they changed. 3. D3 Go! are aware that the user base would be dissatisfied at seeing their characters seems less powerful and by withholding the actual statistics they are hoping to delay any unpleasantness. 4. D3 Go! are hoping that if they don't say anything people won't notice as much.