The Final Colognoisseur Ranking of 4* as of 1/14/16

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  • Buret0Buret0 Age Unconfirmed Posts: 1,591
    Arondite wrote:
    Buret0 wrote:
    4Pool too low, Hulkbuster too high.

    When every character I face is a high level 5*, match damage will almost always set off the 4Pool passive, doing more than 3K in counter damage (more when boosted, though at max boosted his ability triggers at a higher damage point and you sometimes need to wait for an OML strike drop).

    A 5 cover black 4Pool is incredibly important when making the transition into 5* land, because he will be doing more damage with his passive than most of your actives. Surfer and OML can both tank for him on Red/Black and heal up any damage they absorb.


    How can HB be overrated? You're saying he's not T5?

    I'm saying I see a lot of Hulkbuster around and it doesn't scare me one bit. 95% of teams that aren't running a 5* are running a Hulkbuster. But Hulkbuster's lack of AoE means that I'm not at all scared of him and his strike tiles aren't as scary as they were five months ago.

    RHulk, Jean, 4Pool, and Iceman really make you think about who you need to attack first. If you don't kill 4Pool first, he will deal more damage with his passives than Hulkbuster will deal all match if you leave him to the end. Jean will do her double AoE plus drain/stun on match 5s if you don't kill her right away (which messes with tanking/healing and strike tiles in the high level meta). Rhulk sucks to have to kill first because of all the CD tile generation, but if you leave him hanging around your green AP will be gone and he'll be doing a ton of AoE damage (though my 4Pool counters for more damage, I want to be taking most of my damage only with my 5* tanks). Ice has the big buster AoE, a slight drain + battery, and will stun your tanks to hit the back row non-healers.

    Hulkbuster and 4Clops are kind of on the fringe of top 6 in my opinion. They are fast on O (as are all of the other top 6), but Hulkbuster's inability to do an AoE makes him an easy target for when I'm choosing who to attack. His damage per AP is starting to fall behind the powercreep curve. His high health makes him more of an asset than 4Clops, even though 4Clops is faster, hits harder, and can generate a ton of AP in your strongest color (also red or strongest color).

    I am in transition to 5* world where I fight more 5*s than I do 4*s. So who am I going to bring with me and who is going to make me think twice about attacking? Hulkbuster never makes me think twice because I don't even have to adjust my strategy and I'll heal 100% of the damage he can do to my tank by the end of the battle.

    RHulk + OML + Phoenix is terrifying. You pretty much have to kill RHulk first and OML second (I never let phoenix die first or second). In doing so you are going to give off a ton of potential cascades from match damage to RHulk. I would even consider going 5/3/5(ish...) because you want to maximize his opportunity to gather AP for phoenix and OML while slowing down your opponent.

    My list of the 4 characters you absolutely should have covered and leveled going from 4 to 5*:


    1. RHulk
    2. 4Pool (5 black covers a must... I just don't know how to stress how important this is. Being able to do 30K+ in damage spread over multiple targets over the course of a 5* battle... for free. No, it isn't hard to trigger this passive 10 or more times when fighting a bunch of high level 5*s.)
    3. Ice
    4. Jean

    Getting levels and covers gives you options, so having these two is a secondary objective:

    5. Hulkbuster
    6. 4Clops

    The ONLY reason I put RHulk over 4Pool in this list is because of: (a) max health; (b) lower trigger counter; (c) doesn't rely on allies being damaged to trigger counter; (d) battery; and (e) AoE. He's fast and good on O, but also a threat on D. The bad: RHulk doesn't have healing, but has to take damage to trigger his counter. Less useful on O where you are trying to fight high level opponents without spending healthpacks every fight. Pool on the other hand has a true healing, but you don't want him tanking. The red does a ton of damage, but can be difficult to power until the end of the match when you heal up and take down OML or Phoenix.

    On O, you can hide behind a tanking 5* and deal 30K in free damage with 4Pool. Useful purple outlet that works very well with OML's high powered strike tiles to VASTLY increase damage per AP.

    Ice is so good, but his green takes so long to activate and my best teams have him tanking green and purple too often, leaving him exposed to damage. His low health means, while you have to take him down quick, it is possible to finish him before he does anything bad. Better on O than D, but still a threat on D (if that makes sense).

    Jean is less important in the 5* transition because: (a) her stun doesn't affect Surf and doesn't really slow the other team down much; (b) the number of "place X tiles of Y color" powers in 4-5* are very minimal; (c) her health makes her a target to take down quick. The good: her purple is cheap, does decent damage, and can clean up all of those 5* strike tiles.

    Compared to those 4, Hulkbuster struggles in moving in to the 5* world. He wants to eat your red/blue/black AP, but there are better outlets for damage per AP on red and the utility of black and blue in 5* land is going to mean Hulkbuster is just wasting AP. He lacks an AoE, so he doesn't get the triple damage per AP increase from the big strike tiles. He has a lot of health, but he just isn't as efficient as other options anymore.

    4Clops is great on O, but I love seeing him out there on D. AI can't use his blue to gather red, doesn't go straight for matching TU tiles after yellow is out, blows up their own tiles with red (though that one really hurts if it ever lands). Low health means that I can take him down early. If HB and 4Clops were both out there, I would kill 4Clops first. If JG, Ice, 4Pool are out with 4Clops, I have to leave 4Clops for second, which gives him a ton of time to battery up.
  • QuebbsterQuebbster Posts: 8,070 Chairperson of the Boards
    Guess 4pool will be my next fourstar to level... I was pretty set on him anyway, but it's good to get confirmation he's a good choice.
    Not really ready for the fivestar transition yet, but it's good to be prepared and the two X-forces and either Daken or Grocket make an excellent PvE grinding team.
  • AronditeArondite Age Unconfirmed Posts: 1,188 Chairperson of the Boards
    Buret0 wrote:
    Arondite wrote:
    Buret0 wrote:
    4Pool too low, Hulkbuster too high.

    When every character I face is a high level 5*, match damage will almost always set off the 4Pool passive, doing more than 3K in counter damage (more when boosted, though at max boosted his ability triggers at a higher damage point and you sometimes need to wait for an OML strike drop).

    A 5 cover black 4Pool is incredibly important when making the transition into 5* land, because he will be doing more damage with his passive than most of your actives. Surfer and OML can both tank for him on Red/Black and heal up any damage they absorb.


    How can HB be overrated? You're saying he's not T5?

    I'm saying I see a lot of Hulkbuster around and it doesn't scare me one bit. 95% of teams that aren't running a 5* are running a Hulkbuster. But Hulkbuster's lack of AoE means that I'm not at all scared of him and his strike tiles aren't as scary as they were five months ago.

    RHulk, Jean, 4Pool, and Iceman really make you think about who you need to attack first. If you don't kill 4Pool first, he will deal more damage with his passives than Hulkbuster will deal all match if you leave him to the end. Jean will do her double AoE plus drain/stun on match 5s if you don't kill her right away (which messes with tanking/healing and strike tiles in the high level meta). Rhulk sucks to have to kill first because of all the CD tile generation, but if you leave him hanging around your green AP will be gone and he'll be doing a ton of AoE damage (though my 4Pool counters for more damage, I want to be taking most of my damage only with my 5* tanks). Ice has the big buster AoE, a slight drain + battery, and will stun your tanks to hit the back row non-healers.

    Hulkbuster and 4Clops are kind of on the fringe of top 6 in my opinion. They are fast on O (as are all of the other top 6), but Hulkbuster's inability to do an AoE makes him an easy target for when I'm choosing who to attack. His damage per AP is starting to fall behind the powercreep curve. His high health makes him more of an asset than 4Clops, even though 4Clops is faster, hits harder, and can generate a ton of AP in your strongest color (also red or strongest color).

    I am in transition to 5* world where I fight more 5*s than I do 4*s. So who am I going to bring with me and who is going to make me think twice about attacking? Hulkbuster never makes me think twice because I don't even have to adjust my strategy and I'll heal 100% of the damage he can do to my tank by the end of the battle.

    RHulk + OML + Phoenix is terrifying. You pretty much have to kill RHulk first and OML second (I never let phoenix die first or second). In doing so you are going to give off a ton of potential cascades from match damage to RHulk. I would even consider going 5/3/5(ish...) because you want to maximize his opportunity to gather AP for phoenix and OML while slowing down your opponent.

    My list of the 4 characters you absolutely should have covered and leveled going from 4 to 5*:


    1. RHulk
    2. 4Pool (5 black covers a must... I just don't know how to stress how important this is. Being able to do 30K+ in damage spread over multiple targets over the course of a 5* battle... for free. No, it isn't hard to trigger this passive 10 or more times when fighting a bunch of high level 5*s.)
    3. Ice
    4. Jean

    Getting levels and covers gives you options, so having these two is a secondary objective:

    5. Hulkbuster
    6. 4Clops

    The ONLY reason I put RHulk over 4Pool in this list is because of: (a) max health; (b) lower trigger counter; (c) doesn't rely on allies being damaged to trigger counter; (d) battery; and (e) AoE. He's fast and good on O, but also a threat on D. The bad: RHulk doesn't have healing, but has to take damage to trigger his counter. Less useful on O where you are trying to fight high level opponents without spending healthpacks every fight. Pool on the other hand has a true healing, but you don't want him tanking. The red does a ton of damage, but can be difficult to power until the end of the match when you heal up and take down OML or Phoenix.

    On O, you can hide behind a tanking 5* and deal 30K in free damage with 4Pool. Useful purple outlet that works very well with OML's high powered strike tiles to VASTLY increase damage per AP.

    Ice is so good, but his green takes so long to activate and my best teams have him tanking green and purple too often, leaving him exposed to damage. His low health means, while you have to take him down quick, it is possible to finish him before he does anything bad. Better on O than D, but still a threat on D (if that makes sense).

    Jean is less important in the 5* transition because: (a) her stun doesn't affect Surf and doesn't really slow the other team down much; (b) the number of "place X tiles of Y color" powers in 4-5* are very minimal; (c) her health makes her a target to take down quick. The good: her purple is cheap, does decent damage, and can clean up all of those 5* strike tiles.

    Compared to those 4, Hulkbuster struggles in moving in to the 5* world. He wants to eat your red/blue/black AP, but there are better outlets for damage per AP on red and the utility of black and blue in 5* land is going to mean Hulkbuster is just wasting AP. He lacks an AoE, so he doesn't get the triple damage per AP increase from the big strike tiles. He has a lot of health, but he just isn't as efficient as other options anymore.

    4Clops is great on O, but I love seeing him out there on D. AI can't use his blue to gather red, doesn't go straight for matching TU tiles after yellow is out, blows up their own tiles with red (though that one really hurts if it ever lands). Low health means that I can take him down early. If HB and 4Clops were both out there, I would kill 4Clops first. If JG, Ice, 4Pool are out with 4Clops, I have to leave 4Clops for second, which gives him a ton of time to battery up.


    Seems like you're placing a ton of value on defense, which is weird because no one plays anyone for the defensive ability lol. Everything is was and likely always will be how fast they are on offense so you get the most out of their hops, and within the 4* tier Hulkbuster is unarguably top 5 at getting you in and out quick.

    As for how they pair with 5*'s, seems weird to prioritize that as a factor for a couple of good reasons.

    First, these tier lists aren't made for people who have every 4 star fully built. Anyone in that scenario can obviously tell who is good at what just by playing thems some. It's to give players who don't have ANY an idea of which ones to prioritize. Convincing a player to prioritize the heroes that will ease 4*-5* transition while they're tying to go from 3*-4* will only hurt them, because let's face it, 4Pool isn't the hero you want carrying you through taut phase of roster building. IMHB+Fist or JG+SWitch are probably the best 3+4 Teams available, and that's a great deal of why those heroes rank so highly.

    Secondly, with the transition to 5* being so random right now, until they change that I think it's insane to place much value on a 4* based on how hey pair with a 5*, as the simple fact is a only a tiny little fraction of the player base will get any mileage out of that information at all.
  • PolaresPolares Posts: 2,592 Chairperson of the Boards
    I have to say that I find Buret0 post very interesting, and I disagree with you Arondite that these lists are just for 3->4 players. I see them as a fun debate in which we can discuss which are the best chars in general, for PvP, for PvE, in teams, against 5s, with 5s, etc.

    In fact I was going to start leveling OML (still 255) and iceman (210, I just recently got the last cover), and maybe now I will priorize rhulk (just 170 lvl :S) or even Xpool (210).

    I still think though that in general IMHB and Cyclops are better than Xpool. But yes, If you play Xpool with SS or OML it is a good combination. And maybe now I will start also leveling my SS (1/2/4)


    PS: Ah man, If we had more iso we would be able to try so many things... I need 300k iso JUST to level rhulk :_( to level all the chars I want I think I need like 2 or 3 Millions!
  • GrumpySmurf1002GrumpySmurf1002 Age Unconfirmed Posts: 3,511 Chairperson of the Boards
    I always interpreted this as a full utility list. That would include 3->4*, 4* play, and now the 4->5* transition.

    I think Buret0 makes a good case for a 4->5* ranking, but it's basically stating that XDP's value comes from having a 5* to tank & heal all the damage to repeatedly trigger his black. Most people don't have that luxury, so there's no way you can really consider him the 2nd most valuable 4* from an overall perspective.

    I think there's enough of a case there to put him in the tier with the big 5, however. Beyond the 5* utility, he has great synergy with Thing and XForce, and otherwise alters how you have to attack a team, which does have value as Buret0 points out in his arguments.
  • rkd80rkd80 Age Unconfirmed Posts: 376
    I see iceman being ranked top tier consistently, but who in the 3/4* land does he pair with? I find him to be a confusing character and although I am tempted to max him (got 12 covers) I can also max Rulk and Clops. I value Colog's opinion very much, but am struggling with iceman conceptually.

    As of now I got HB, XF and Thor4* maxed (or close) and considering who to bring up as the fourth 4* between rulk/cyke/iceman - having a hell of a time deciding. Since raising 300k iso is not trivial, using this forum to steer my decision but am getting overwhelmed with the various theories/hypothesis.

    I am strongly favoring rulk over ice only because jeanbuster or jeanclops is still a very prevalent team in PvP and rulk appears to be a great answer to jean.
  • PolaresPolares Posts: 2,592 Chairperson of the Boards
    rkd80 wrote:


    I am strongly favoring rulk over ice only because jeanbuster or jeanclops is still a very prevalent team in PvP and rulk appears to be a great answer to jean.

    Well, we can say that iceman is even better against jean than rhulk. You just need to get 6 blue AP and then she is stunned for 4 turns, so you can get 6 blue AP more and almost kill her, get green and do some serious damage or do any match-5 in the board without fear of Jean blue.

    Rhulk has more life than iceman, and with a bit of luck he is quite fast to get to 18 green (basically 11 green and 7 purple, AND you can boost both powers if you need to). Rhulk is also probably easier to use with IMHB and Cyclops. But then again 7k is a lot, but it will probably not kill any top 4, so you need to do it twice.

    I think, if used alone iceman is best, the best 1vs1 probably, but rhulk plays better with the other big top5, except probably jean (but they overlap a lot so you are not going to play either with her).

    But I was thinking in a good partner for OML in the 4 land and iceman is probably better than rhulk.
  • rkd80rkd80 Age Unconfirmed Posts: 376
    But other than 4* ddq, this is not a 1vs1 game so we should only consider it from a 3v3 perspective unless something drastic changes.

    I see your point on the stuns and on rulk AoE, however rulk really strikes me as an annoying defensive character more than an offensive one. Since this game is all about offensive speed, it would appear that iceman provides that in spades. I think trying to come up with a defensive strategy to thwart the influx of 5* is probably a losing battle as the only realistic answer against 5* are probably more 5*. :-/

    Think i will go ahead then and stick to iceman for now. Still cant think of who might be a good partner for him, but HB + ice does not sound too bad anyway.
  • Buret0Buret0 Age Unconfirmed Posts: 1,591
    Arondite wrote:
    Seems like you're placing a ton of value on defense, which is weird because no one plays anyone for the defensive ability lol. Everything is was and likely always will be how fast they are on offense so you get the most out of their hops, and within the 4* tier Hulkbuster is unarguably top 5 at getting you in and out quick.

    As for how they pair with 5*'s, seems weird to prioritize that as a factor for a couple of good reasons.

    First, these tier lists aren't made for people who have every 4 star fully built. Anyone in that scenario can obviously tell who is good at what just by playing thems some. It's to give players who don't have ANY an idea of which ones to prioritize. Convincing a player to prioritize the heroes that will ease 4*-5* transition while they're tying to go from 3*-4* will only hurt them, because let's face it, 4Pool isn't the hero you want carrying you through taut phase of roster building. IMHB+Fist or JG+SWitch are probably the best 3+4 Teams available, and that's a great deal of why those heroes rank so highly.

    Secondly, with the transition to 5* being so random right now, until they change that I think it's insane to place much value on a 4* based on how hey pair with a 5*, as the simple fact is a only a tiny little fraction of the player base will get any mileage out of that information at all.

    Like I said, I'm in the 4-5* transition right now (I have a total of 13 5* covers), so I'm reporting on what is working for me. I don't put a huge emphasis on D, but I always analyze both the O and D when doing an evaluation. 4Pool's passive is about speed on O more than it is about deterrence on D. When you are trying to down a 40K OML before he gets his claws out, you need to ask yourself how you are going to accomplish that. Jean Grey isn't going to do that for you, her AoE is going to clear some strike tiles and OML will heal up all of that damage before you can do it again.

    To say that 4Pool isn't as good as HB in the transition is just a matter of groupthink. People are using HB over 4Pool because more people have HB as a result of his launch and how long he has been around and how dominant he was for so long after his launch. But he's not the be all and end all of 4*s the way other people have said. 4Pool combos well with so many other characters and builds. He even works well with HB, because he can tank and heal using the red tiles HB produces and his CD4W tiles can be boosted by the strike tiles HB produces. If you ask, why wouldn't you use HBs red instead of 4Pool's red then you are ignoring the value of true healing. HB does 8,190 damage for 13 red AP. 4Pool does 7,678 and heals for 4,561.

    Obviously boosted you are going to make a different choices. I just think 4Pool is so diverse. He can tank and heal, he can prevent the enemy from obtaining their strongest color, he can hang out in the back and just drop massive passive damage. Hulkbuster by comparison is so 1 dimensional: make red, repulsor punch. If all you are fighting is 3*s and 4*s, maybe that's good enough for you.

    Like I said, he's still clearly in the top 6 4*s, I just can't value him as high as everyone else because I've seen how little value he brings to upper 4* PvP when you are fighting more 5*s than 4*s and 3*s.
  • GrumpySmurf1002GrumpySmurf1002 Age Unconfirmed Posts: 3,511 Chairperson of the Boards
    Buret0 wrote:
    To say that 4Pool isn't as good as HB in the transition is just a matter of groupthink. People are using HB over 4Pool because more people have HB as a result of his launch and how long he has been around and how dominant he was for so long after his launch.

    One thing that needs mention is XDP gets a massive bump thanks to championing. He's not quite as versatile when you had to pick a build and stick to it.

    Anyway, disagree that it's just groupthink on HB. Fistbuster was/is immensely popular for a reason, it's hard to find a quicker accelerating combo. XDP has an ok accelerator in 3Cyc, but you'd be building 3Cyc sub-optimally (before championing) to use him as such.

    Plus your primary selling point (his black) is not as beneficial given the lack of 3/4* characters with self heals even remotely good as a 5*. That reduces him to a very good (but expensive), not self-accelerating red, and an inconsistent purple without a partner like XForce or Thing (which aren't necessarily available during the 3->4* transition).
  • Buret0Buret0 Age Unconfirmed Posts: 1,591
    rkd80 wrote:
    But other than 4* ddq, this is not a 1vs1 game so we should only consider it from a 3v3 perspective unless something drastic changes.

    I see your point on the stuns and on rulk AoE, however rulk really strikes me as an annoying defensive character more than an offensive one. Since this game is all about offensive speed, it would appear that iceman provides that in spades. I think trying to come up with a defensive strategy to thwart the influx of 5* is probably a losing battle as the only realistic answer against 5* are probably more 5*. :-/

    Think i will go ahead then and stick to iceman for now. Still cant think of who might be a good partner for him, but HB + ice does not sound too bad anyway.

    Ice can do a ton of damage with that green. The great thing with Ice is that he's a standalone character. I don't mean that he is fighting 1 v 1, but rather that you can put him in with anyone else and he will thrive. A lot of what makes for great team composition depends on if/whether there is a mandatory third character. We often think in terms of 2 characters who work well together, but if there is some chemistry with the mandatory third, you should take advantage of it and change the team up.

    RHulk is actually a good teammate for Ice. Ice's purple creates blue, which is useful at the mid/end stages of a match when you are trying to prevent the enemy from using their nuke or you are trying to stunlock or wipe out the last character. However, RHulk's purple should be at 5 covers (whereas Ice's purple should be at 3) and can be used to feed Ice's Green nuke.

    Ice is a bit of a glass cannon, so having a way to gain green without forcing Ice into the front to take the damage is a good idea.

    Then again, you can pair Ice up with pretty much any of the top 6:

    4Pool is good if the 3rd is a black AP user (XFW gives you a full rainbow and his surgical strike is deadly with a 3/5/5 4Pool with XFW in the tank position on Green/Black/Yellow/TU 3/5/5 so that he can heal and Ice can nuke).
    Hulkbuster is tough because Ice wants to deplete red tiles from the board and HB wants to deplete green from the board, but both of those abilities are likely at 3 covers. They don't accelerate each other either, so really you are going to have to hope the board is kind to one or the other.
    Cyclops at 5/5/3 can feed green to Ice and tank Red/Yellow/TU, but his low health and lack of healing don't make him an ideal tank, plus you want the strongest color to be green to feed Ice, so this team needs a high level 4* or 5* at 3rd position to be effective, which limits the usefulness to PvE, Shield, or a 4* PvP.
    Jean and Ice share three colors, but a 5/5/3 Jean with a 5/5/3 Ice can actually do good work together because Jean's purple is the best use of that AP, Ice's Green is the best use of that AP, and Ice has a very good active blue to complement JG's passive.
    Ice can feed off RHulk's excellent purple. If Ice dies, RHulk can still make use of all that green AP. Obviously the third matters.
  • Buret0Buret0 Age Unconfirmed Posts: 1,591
    Buret0 wrote:
    To say that 4Pool isn't as good as HB in the transition is just a matter of groupthink. People are using HB over 4Pool because more people have HB as a result of his launch and how long he has been around and how dominant he was for so long after his launch.

    One thing that needs mention is XDP gets a massive bump thanks to championing. He's not quite as versatile when you had to pick a build and stick to it.

    Anyway, disagree that it's just groupthink on HB. Fistbuster was/is immensely popular for a reason, it's hard to find a quicker accelerating combo. XDP has an ok accelerator in 3Cyc, but you'd be building 3Cyc sub-optimally (before championing) to use him as such.

    Plus your primary selling point (his black) is not as beneficial given the lack of 3/4* characters with self heals even remotely good as a 5*. That reduces him to a very good (but expensive), not self-accelerating red, and an inconsistent purple without a partner like XForce or Thing (which aren't necessarily available during the 3->4* transition).

    Yeah, before championing I had a 5/3/5 and a 3/5/5 4Pool at level 270 (still pissed off I lost the 13 covers due to poor communication regarding breaking down the duplicates...), so I was able to use one then the other.

    Fistbuster actually became easy prey for Jean Grey and was one of the big reasons for the rise of her popularity. You couldn't use your double battery to generate the red/strike tiles (to bump the attack tile) without getting stunned and hit 1-3 times with her AoE. Which is why people switched to JeanBuster. JeanBuster isn't faster, its just that it provides a defense against the 3* battery of Fist/SW/Cyc, etc. You don't see FistBuster around much anymore. It isn't because it is slower than the alternatives, because as you say, it is still the fastest 3-4* combo in the game (though ScarletGrey is probably a close second). The rise of JG shows how important D is, because as soon as 4* land started using JG, the age of the 3* battery was over.

    I would actually build 4Pool as 5/3/5 and then once he is championed switch him to 5/5/3 or 3/5/5 (depending on who he is pairing with). 3*s are currently so nerfed, I don't know if any of them are as useful as they once were, except for the battery builds, which runs into the great wall of JGs.
  • rkd80rkd80 Age Unconfirmed Posts: 376
    Buret0 wrote:
    rkd80 wrote:
    But other than 4* ddq, this is not a 1vs1 game so we should only consider it from a 3v3 perspective unless something drastic changes.

    I see your point on the stuns and on rulk AoE, however rulk really strikes me as an annoying defensive character more than an offensive one. Since this game is all about offensive speed, it would appear that iceman provides that in spades. I think trying to come up with a defensive strategy to thwart the influx of 5* is probably a losing battle as the only realistic answer against 5* are probably more 5*. :-/

    Think i will go ahead then and stick to iceman for now. Still cant think of who might be a good partner for him, but HB + ice does not sound too bad anyway.

    Ice can do a ton of damage with that green. The great thing with Ice is that he's a standalone character. I don't mean that he is fighting 1 v 1, but rather that you can put him in with anyone else and he will thrive. A lot of what makes for great team composition depends on if/whether there is a mandatory third character. We often think in terms of 2 characters who work well together, but if there is some chemistry with the mandatory third, you should take advantage of it and change the team up.

    RHulk is actually a good teammate for Ice. Ice's purple creates blue, which is useful at the mid/end stages of a match when you are trying to prevent the enemy from using their nuke or you are trying to stunlock or wipe out the last character. However, RHulk's purple should be at 5 covers (whereas Ice's purple should be at 3) and can be used to feed Ice's Green nuke.

    Ice is a bit of a glass cannon, so having a way to gain green without forcing Ice into the front to take the damage is a good idea.

    Then again, you can pair Ice up with pretty much any of the top 6:

    4Pool is good if the 3rd is a black AP user (XFW gives you a full rainbow and his surgical strike is deadly with a 3/5/5 4Pool with XFW in the tank position on Green/Black/Yellow/TU 3/5/5 so that he can heal and Ice can nuke).
    Hulkbuster is tough because Ice wants to deplete red tiles from the board and HB wants to deplete green from the board, but both of those abilities are likely at 3 covers. They don't accelerate each other either, so really you are going to have to hope the board is kind to one or the other.
    Cyclops at 5/5/3 can feed green to Ice and tank Red/Yellow/TU, but his low health and lack of healing don't make him an ideal tank, plus you want the strongest color to be green to feed Ice, so this team needs a high level 4* or 5* at 3rd position to be effective, which limits the usefulness to PvE, Shield, or a 4* PvP.
    Jean and Ice share three colors, but a 5/5/3 Jean with a 5/5/3 Ice can actually do good work together because Jean's purple is the best use of that AP, Ice's Green is the best use of that AP, and Ice has a very good active blue to complement JG's passive.
    Ice can feed off RHulk's excellent purple. If Ice dies, RHulk can still make use of all that green AP. Obviously the third matters.


    I went ahead with the collective wisdom and dumped all my iso into iceman. He is not 270 yet, but after I get 65k iso he will. I have a fully covered and highly underleveled RULK and Cyke waiting on the bench. After reading your analysis I happen to agree. For now I will run him with HB only because I have no other choice. I suppose I can use my max covered XF, but not loving the low health.

    However as soon as I am done maxing iceman, the next focus will be to max Rulk. I believe those two make the best pairing and rulk also have some utility against 5* where every hit will probably trigger his anger.

    I really do like 4*cyke, but ice + cyke just do not seem like a great fit.

    I think the bottom line is that for the moment, iceman will overlap with someone and that is what makes pairing tricky. We love synergy and we love rainbows, so iceman causes angst in that department. However rulk being a giant meatshield and having the ability to feed green is the best of all the top tier 4*. XFool is another possibility like you mentioned, but I'd rather have all the top guns maxed first.

    Thanks for the input!
  • Der_LexDer_Lex Age Unconfirmed Posts: 1,035 Chairperson of the Boards
    Ice and Cyke is a great combo, actually. You just need to respec your Cyke (hurray for championing!) to 553. That way you have Cyke as a red and/or green feeder (his yellow output will change depending on which order you put the two in), Iceman as a blue feeder, and no less than 3 big damage powers between Ice's green and blue and Cyke's red.

    These two guys have my vote for current top two best 4* characters, with good old Jean rounding out the top 3.

    We'll have to see what the exact stats of Nova are, but if his damage output is high enough and his strikes are halfway decent, I think he has top tier potential as well.
  • rkd80rkd80 Age Unconfirmed Posts: 376
    What about the issue of both cyke and ice having low health?
  • RuinateRuinate Posts: 505 Critical Contributor
    Why do people love Cyc + Rhulk or Cyc + Iceman so much? Is a 12k single target nuke really necessary after a 7k aoe? Wouldn't Overdrive strike tiles and smaller/quicker Repulsor Punches be much better for cleaning up without massively over killing?

    I only have HB, Jean, and Rhulk maxed but this is how I would imagine pairings.
    HB + Rhulk
    HB + Iceman
    Cyc + Jean


    Am I way off here?
  • Buret0Buret0 Age Unconfirmed Posts: 1,591
    Ruinate wrote:
    Why do people love Cyc + Rhulk or Cyc + Iceman so much? Is a 12k single target nuke really necessary after a 7k aoe? Wouldn't Overdrive strike tiles and smaller/quicker Repulsor Punches be much better for cleaning up without massively over killing?

    When all you fight are maxed 4*s and variously covered 5*s, doing 19K is about what is needed to bat clean-up. icon_e_smile.gif
  • AronditeArondite Age Unconfirmed Posts: 1,188 Chairperson of the Boards
    Der_Lex wrote:
    Ice and Cyke is a great combo, actually. You just need to respec your Cyke (hurray for championing!) to 553. That way you have Cyke as a red and/or green feeder (his yellow output will change depending on which order you put the two in), Iceman as a blue feeder, and no less than 3 big damage powers between Ice's green and blue and Cyke's red.

    These two guys have my vote for current top two best 4* characters, with good old Jean rounding out the top 3.

    We'll have to see what the exact stats of Nova are, but if his damage output is high enough and his strikes are halfway decent, I think he has top tier potential as well.


    Bolded... No it wont. Cyclops Yellow awards AP at random if the numbers are true-tied (read, a numerical tie of two same-level, same-star characters).
  • Der_LexDer_Lex Age Unconfirmed Posts: 1,035 Chairperson of the Boards
    Arondite wrote:
    Der_Lex wrote:
    Ice and Cyke is a great combo, actually. You just need to respec your Cyke (hurray for championing!) to 553. That way you have Cyke as a red and/or green feeder (his yellow output will change depending on which order you put the two in), Iceman as a blue feeder, and no less than 3 big damage powers between Ice's green and blue and Cyke's red.

    These two guys have my vote for current top two best 4* characters, with good old Jean rounding out the top 3.

    We'll have to see what the exact stats of Nova are, but if his damage output is high enough and his strikes are halfway decent, I think he has top tier potential as well.


    Bolded... No it wont. Cyclops Yellow awards AP at random if the numbers are true-tied (read, a numerical tie of two same-level, same-star characters).

    That sucks. I wasn't aware of this, never used him in a team configuration before where there was a tie for highest. Makes him a lot more random, thus less effective.
  • udonomefooudonomefoo Posts: 1,630 Chairperson of the Boards
    Arondite wrote:
    Der_Lex wrote:
    Ice and Cyke is a great combo, actually. You just need to respec your Cyke (hurray for championing!) to 553. That way you have Cyke as a red and/or green feeder (his yellow output will change depending on which order you put the two in), Iceman as a blue feeder, and no less than 3 big damage powers between Ice's green and blue and Cyke's red.

    These two guys have my vote for current top two best 4* characters, with good old Jean rounding out the top 3.

    We'll have to see what the exact stats of Nova are, but if his damage output is high enough and his strikes are halfway decent, I think he has top tier potential as well.


    Bolded... No it wont. Cyclops Yellow awards AP at random if the numbers are true-tied (read, a numerical tie of two same-level, same-star characters).

    Not quite right IME. It's random as long as there is a numerical tie for match dmg. Any combination of 3-4* characters from level 210-270 will all have 83 as their highest match dmg value. For me it has all been random from there regardless of level and star differences.
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