Why do people keep sleeping on Burst Healing?

Selvokaz

Healing is a part of the game and outside of offense it's in my honest opinion it's the 2nd most important aspect of it. Yes I'm aware protect tiles exist but when comparing Protect to Healing my mind sees it like this. Protect tiles reduce damage and can prolong a much in either person's favor (See Loki, She-Hulk and Moonstone, and likely a few others im not remembering), they can also be removed from play via people like Captain Marvel, Ms Marvel (Carol Danvers), Falcon, and so on, and some still gain benefits whenever they remove your protect tiles ie Doctor Octopus. On the flipside Healing (temp) has only one draw back it goes away after you win or lose the battle, that's the only real draw I can think of when it comes to it.

I bring this up because of course Spider-man has both, so might as well throw it out there, it seems to be widely agreed upon that 355 is the best build for him, and I don't entirely agree or disagree but rather see it as situational, based largely on who's on the team with him. You don't need healing to win every match, that's the first thing I want to say before anyone starts chiming in with, "This is a offensive game first!", no kidding most every action game is, hell most puzzle games are by the same mechanics that drive purpose of getting the best match ups possible in order to score high, but besides that the game does still garner defense too in the way of health per character, and intervals between when you can fire off another power, this defense grows when and if you have opponents that have defensive abilities of their own like protect tiles, stunning abilities, or healing, so most matches are going to go more than 2 rounds which means in that time you probably are going to be subject to a power hit if not more, and while it sucks when it happens crits too. These are of course times where having someone who can heal you becomes a great boon, (pretty obvious I know.)


So what's the discrepancy? Well it's this, people seem to think 12 yellow ap is a lot to save for. Mind you that's 3 4 matches, or 4 3 matches, or 2 5 or better matches with a little extra to be needed to use a web bandage, as oppose to the free passive protect tiles generated by matching purple. Yet here is the problem with that if you're actively matching purple to get a shield tile then you not actively matching blue to get the stun ready, and if the stunning isn't happening then the protect tiles aren't really as good as they could be (not to mention why aren't you stunning?) because every web tile out when the protect is made improves its power. Healing isn't all that different but let's look at it, large substantial healing that gets a boost from having 3 web tiles out, same as protect in that both require web tiles to be at their best. So what's the tie breaker in my opinion? situation, how many of us actually ignore the AI when it has 2 or protect tiles out? Mind you this is Spiderman so you're also thinking was there web tiles out before he made that? A lot of the time in the dpd you'll see him with Magneto and Mystique and in my experience he's hardly ever stunned me to make a web tile, and his own teammates will match his protect tiles from time to time, if i don't or a power/match doesn't destroy them out right. Healing on the other hand can't be stopped unless you actively match the healing power color in order to prevent the enemy from getting it, or in the case of Kamala Khan prevent the enemy from using any power at all.

So the overview, you're going to take damage at some point, people are going to remove your protects either intentionally or by accident, and if your intentionally matching purples then you're not matching blue which means your not stunning which means you're making weaker protect tiles to being with, nothing is perfect but 12 yellow AP isn't even all that much, since you can build that in part by just catching a few good yellow matches or line of yellow in another colors 4 or 5 match clear. There are few situations where matching up Spiderman's purple for his protect also yields him potential blue for this stuns namely MN Magneto and his purple in which case I can see why that would be a good strat.

opinions?

Berserk_Al

Spider-Man is just not the best example. I very much consider Original Black Widow and Kamala Khan as great characters with heal burst abilities.

puppychow

To be honest, I don't think you're going deep enough on the issue. You need to DISTINGUISH between passively triggered abilities versus actively triggered ones. So passives like Kamala's healing and Cage's protect are more important in a match than abilities that cost ap to use.

I see Spidey more as a protector because he triggers pink protect tiles when a purple match is made. His yel healing simply costs way too much to use. And if your focus is on making matches to collect ap to trigger healing, than you'll be prolonging the match by ignoring colors that trigger damage abilities. Also, because healing is not considered true healing, you'll be needing heals to continue in the next match with the same team.

Xenoberyll

It requires you to take damage and the health is gone again after the match. I think people rather put their covers and ap into abilities that help them to win faster and take less damage.

Punisher5784

Selvokaz wrote:

Well it's this, people seem to think 12 yellow ap is a lot to save for.

While I agree that healing and protect tiles are essential when you first start playing MPQ, but once you enter 3/4* land, this is less important as you need fast strong attacks. 12 Yellow AP is ALOT especially when the healing is based on web tiles, which even when you have enough Spidey's yellow takes the webs away making your stun and protect tiles useless again. I agree with the above player that Spidey is the worst example about how Burst healing is good.

Let's look at what we can do with 12 AP in 3* land (at max cover and level):

or for 4000-7000 damage.
for 4000 damage and 1000 to team (in front)
for a bunch of strong strike tiles
for 3700 to team
for 4000 damage or stun every 3 turns

Yellow isn't always offensive but I would rather have at 13 AP for nearly 7000 damage. The point is, I would rather kill my opponent quick then stall the game with healing and protect tiles.

Although not an exact comparison, if you play Magic the Gathering, you would know that speed is normally the key to winning, it's best to have a bunch of quick 2/2 creatures than 1 big 10/10 creature that takes 15 turns to cast, you're dead before that happens! I will destroy anyone with my Elf or Sliver deck

Selvokaz

We've already established that spidey is situational based, both his purple and his yellow are, (protect tiles don't change once they are made, what matters is how many web tiles are on the board before you make the protect tile, whether they remain or you add more doesn't change pre-existing ones.) (unless you use inspiration or settlement or something like that)
I don't see how 12 is to much, Luke Cage since someone brought him up because of his passive requires 13 yellow ap for Righteous Uppercut, that's one more than spidey, is that to much? According to the wiki 535 is the more favored build for Luke, (I myself would rather going something like 355 but that's me.) and he only does about 500 more damage than Spidey heal's best case scenario.

MarvelMan

Selvokaz wrote:

I don't see how 12 is to much, Luke Cage since someone brought him up because of his passive requires 13 yellow ap for Righteous Uppercut, that's one more than spidey, is that to much? According to the wiki 535 is the more favored build for Luke, (I myself would rather going something like 355 but that's me.) and he only does about 500 more damage than Spidey heal's best case scenario.

Yes, the 13 AP for RU IS a lot. Unless Im prioritizing yellow (or having to deny on a yellow heavy board) things are often over before I get 13 (or even 12). If Im prioritizing.....never mind, I dont prioritize yellow, just doesnt happen.

As for 355 vs 535....at 3, LC red pretty much eliminates all match damage so why have it higher? The 5Y is not because its that much better....its because 3 vs 5 red ISNT.

simonsez

Climb to 1000 in PvP, put Spidey in your team, and see how long it takes until you're back to 500. I give it 10 minutes, tops.

Healing can make matches longer. It doesn't help you win. It doesn't even help you climb, because the healing is temporary. The only time I've found healing to be helpful is in BoP, and that's because with OBW you're healing AND controlling AP at the same time. If you're using non-offensive abilities and letting the opponent collect AP, you're going to take a pounding. You might heal from it, but it's not an optimal strategy.

TLCstormz

.......because you STILL need health packs, after the match? lol

Buret0

MarvelMan wrote:

Yes, the 13 AP for RU IS a lot. Unless Im prioritizing yellow (or having to deny on a yellow heavy board) things are often over before I get 13 (or even 12). If Im prioritizing.....never mind, I dont prioritize yellow, just doesnt happen.

As for 355 vs 535....at 3, LC red pretty much eliminates all match damage so why have it higher? The 5Y is not because its that much better....its because 3 vs 5 red ISNT.

I'm a 5/5/3 Cage user. I only use Cage when boosted (if then). You need that extra damage protection if you are playing against as many 5*s as I am in high level PvP. On the other hand, there are much better uses for black AP at the highest level (4/5 Wolvie, HB, SS etc.) and much better stuns available (Ice... always Ice). On top of that, the AI is useless with all double-cast abilities.

Back to the OP...

Burst healing is mostly garbage because it doesn't reduce healthpack consumption. Thankfully, this is a 1-3* problem, so the only time I ever need to worry about it is in required character missions and low level deadpool missions.

At best it is an annoyance when playing against it (see current Ragnarok PvP or the last KK PvP). It forces you to think strategically how you will deploy your powers, but it is easily dealt with by considering team composition before blindly going into battle. But until burst healing forces a radical change in how we play, it is a wasted ability.

Healing in 4/5* land on the other hand is much better. 4Pool has an ability that deals significant damage and restores a good chunk of health. Wolverine's Recovery is still not perfect because of the CD tile, but it can be a full heal in many situations. Silver Surfer's healing ability is crazy good. OML's passive healing means that you often have to leave him alive until the end of the battle. Phoenix has a chance to come back to life. MrF is garbage, but his passive healing ability makes him useful when paired with Carnage (4K passive health boost) in PvE (since he can always be left for last on D in PvP... because he is total garbage... just... why?!?).

Unknown

Here's another way to look at it: Once you get to upper 3*+ land, the powers are what cause damage, not really matching. Even if a little match damage trickles in, it's nothing compared to 5K+ of some power firing off. This is not news.

However, if I can build up my own offensive power and fire it to kill their toon before he fires off his power, then I've done 2 things: I'm closer to winning the match, and I've effectively healed 5K+ because he didn't get off his attack power. Passive healing can only ever do healing, while attack stuff can win the match as well as "heal". It's pretty much a no-brainer.

wymtime

The best use for temp healing either KK, spiderman, is survival nodes in EOTS. This is the only time I use Spiderman and Falcn because falcon can beef up spidermans protect tiles and the yellow generated can save me from caltrops or turn to smoke. Both of those can do a lot of damage over time. Spiderman can also stun a ninja so I can kill him so turn to smoke does not appear.
When you look at PVP the issue is healers like Spiderman, KK, OBW have lower health because of thier healing ability. They have the ability to potential prolong matches, but can be easily killed. Characters who just have protect tiles like LC, Cmags, Colossus have much better health give protection and can do damage.

Overall temp healing can save a match but it cannot save on health packs since it is not true healing.

PeterGibbons316

Sundance2112 wrote:

Here's another way to look at it: Once you get to upper 3*+ land, the powers are what cause damage, not really matching. Even if a little match damage trickles in, it's nothing compared to 5K+ of some power firing off. This is not news.

However, if I can build up my own offensive power and fire it to kill their toon before he fires off his power, then I've done 2 things: I'm closer to winning the match, and I've effectively healed 5K+ because he didn't get off his attack power. Passive healing can only ever do healing, while attack stuff can win the match as well as "heal". It's pretty much a no-brainer.

This. This is the right answer. If you can bring a character capable of killing the enemy first, then you don't even need to heal.

Tagstar87

wymtime wrote:

The best use for temp healing either KK, spiderman, is survival nodes in EOTS.

I was logging in to say exactly this. Healing is pretty much DOA in PVP but can be quite useful in PVE (the whole other half of this game). I have been rotating Beast, Spidey, and OBW through these survival nodes because their burst healing help offset all those attack tiles. Beast and Spidey have the added benefit of shields to completely negate the attack tiles.

Warbringa

Only true healing is really useful in my opinion. I prefer offense or AP control over burst healing any day. As a person above mentioned, that health is gone after the match. One exception is KK with her passive healing is ok since you don't have to use AP with it. OBW healing is great although honestly it is mainly due to the fact that the countdown delay function is actually the better part of the ability and healing is thrown on top of it (for PvE at least). Very, very rarely do I play a match where burst healing would make a huge difference. First, I don't lose that many matches to begin with and I don't really care if a character goes down or has 1000 health left or 2000 (assuming your character starts the match with more than 5000 health for example) since I will probably have to use a health pack anyway. I never go into a match with less than 80% health if I figure it will be competitive I would rather have more offense or controlling the ability of the opponent to use powers over healing any day of the week. This game is true to the saying the best defense is a good offense.

Now, true healing, on a character like Groot is another matter. I have used Groot very successfully to tank for other characters and to take the big damage blows from opponents powers and then heal him up fast with his yellow power for example. This has saved a ton of health packs. In addition, Groots blue power is normally a match winner if you can fire it off. With true healers, you can also heal them in easy matches fast if you need to without wasting health packs (Patch, Daken, Groot, etc.)

alaeth

I actually hit Ctrl-F and searched for "Ghost Rider" before posting...

That's the only way I would pick an active healer (spidey, beast) over protection or other means of damage mitigation (AP steal is my prefrerance).

With Penance Stare, the balance shifts to healing (true or otherwise). Damage mitigation is detrimental to this one skill.

So I think... it depends...


On PvE when I'm on my normal clear, I avoid healers at all cost... the more damage I take per node, the easier my final clear will be. In PvP, I focus on AP steal and mitigation - healing is for chumps (as long as my guys stay alive longer than yours, I win!). The only case I use my healers is for those long multi-wave battles... or the final Story node grind... then you want ALL THE HEALS.

tdglory49

Even if you want a burst healer, the big problem with Spider-man is not only the cost, but that there's no secondary benefit to his healing. Every other burst healer either has some secondary skill (OBW's tile control, Beast's protect tiles) or is passive. Heck, even Ragnarok creates some charged tiles. It's tough to get much more out of Spider-man's yellow than you do from Beast on an health/AP basis. And if you do, Spidey's yellow hurts his purple and blue, by getting rid of your web tiles.

Linkster79

Like others I am of the mind that if I can down the other dude before they down me I will have no need to heal. In versus it really is about speed and just how little damage you take to save health packs. In story events it is all about saving health packs, less health pack usage means we can keep playing for longer.

This is one of the major reasons there was such uproar when the healing changes hit, (want to see mass forum revolt look here https://d3go.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=10239/url] ) with true healing in effect we could play for longer when it suited us, now healing active abilities will always play second fiddle to high hit point pools and nuke type moves. Also made versus more fun as you would usually see teams made up of 2 top tier characters and OBW (wasn't exactly bottom tier at the time) which meant most teams were easily beatable. Ahhh the days that Thor: Marvel Now, Astonishing Wolverine and Original Black Widow could get top 50 in versus, top 25 if you were lucky.

Malcrof

Beasts healing comes with protect tiles. KK has the most utility, but Beast is part of my daily rotation for trivial nodes, he can not only heal, but can create 3 types of special tiles, and a midlin aoe in case he is the only one left.

GuntherBlobel

I agree that healing is underrated. I use healing a lot to climb or play PvE. I've noticed that / can win me PvE battles that others complain is impossible. However, just because healing is underrated doesn't mean that its powerful. Generally, it's weaker than damaging powers. Note that removes webs to heal, which is negative feedback, while many damaging powers like Smite and Surprise! have positive feedback and increase in power with each use.

I suspect that healing is purposely made weak, because it would be agony to lose matches from the enemy healing. I love KK, but some of the most frustrating matches to lose are the 20 min death-by-a-thousand-cuts battles with KK healing each round.

I think the Devs know that people would hate that more than losing a match quickly.

Pylgrim

Your analysis seems made in a vacuum. Yeah, if you have a Spider-Man and that's the only yellow ability you have in your team, surely it will be useful if you get that much AP (not that you'll get out of your way to get it instead the colours that will deal damage). But we don't play in a vacuum. If you don't have a better yellow ability in your team, well bring someone who does. For a comparison of a damaging ability with the same cost, we have Thunder Strike. Ask yourself, what will save more health: negating a few turns of match damage (or a portion of a decent damaging power), or dealing 3.5 damage and accelerating your game ending nuke by 1-4 turns? Every turn the games goes on is a chance for the AI to casually happen into a massive cascade and end you (or at least cripple your characters to Health-pack-requiring levels), healing notwithstanding.