Mawtful wrote: Pylgrim wrote: Mawtful wrote: *snip* This is very well though but I think a bit too extreme of a change to ever be considered. For example, moving healing to Green, while philosophically sound, seems like a huge modification across the board that will not necessarily make things better, gameplay-wise. Anyway, I think now we're veering too far away from the original purpose of the thread and I'm to blame. Let's leave this thread for talking about the imbalance of colours and I'll make another one later to talk about the colour pie and how to make it more consistent. I agree about that extreme statement. I don't think the changes I suggested there would ever get considered, let alone implemented - however I do think that they are actually pretty core to the idea of colour imbalance, especially since a unified "recoloured" roster would then show up where the gaps really are. I certainly didn't pick the best examples in terms of filling gaps, so here's a few more super quick examples.Blade Nightstalker becomes Purple (stealing). Enemies Closer becomes Red (conditional damage increase). The Thirst becomes Yellow (tactics/strategy: choosing to keep Red on the board). This Blade would then have a colour scheme which is currently shared only with Starlord (and could very well end up being unique for the 3* tier).Hood Twin Pistols becomes Black (end turn drawback). Dormammu's Aid becomes Purple (stealing). Intimidation becomes Yellow (teamwork). Again, this is colour scheme doesn't currently exist in the 3* tier, but more importantly, we get a mini-Kingpin. This helps create a really nice thematic flow and mechanical introduction/training between tiers (we should expect Crime Bosses to dish out damage, manipulate AP pools, and play around with countdowns), which is something I've talked about before.
Pylgrim wrote: Mawtful wrote: *snip* This is very well though but I think a bit too extreme of a change to ever be considered. For example, moving healing to Green, while philosophically sound, seems like a huge modification across the board that will not necessarily make things better, gameplay-wise. Anyway, I think now we're veering too far away from the original purpose of the thread and I'm to blame. Let's leave this thread for talking about the imbalance of colours and I'll make another one later to talk about the colour pie and how to make it more consistent.
Mawtful wrote: *snip*
GMadMan040 wrote: Thank you. Just thank you. It is enormously refreshing to see some actual game theory and analysis discussion presented in these forums again. That's what made this place fantastic and it really feels like it has slipped away for awhile. Here's hoping this is the roaring comeback for this stuff. Great post. Can't upvote enough.
Pylgrim wrote: I completely agree on your take on Hood, though I think there's room to argue that Twin Pistols could be Green because the board destruction aspect of it is more integral to the power's nature than its having to pay an "additional cost", which I agree is a Black thing. However, about Blade, after further reflection I've come to believe that The Thirst cannot be a Yellow ability. Black Panther's Battleplan is Yellow not only because it is flavoured to be a strategy that's helpful to allies, but more importantly because it cares about TU AP. The Thirst has nothing of that, it is more of the increasing savagery trait seen in many other Green abilities, not to mention that strike tiles are "primary" in Green, so I think its colour is correct. As for KYEC, while it does have the component of conditional damage increase that you mention, which is Red, I think that attack tiles themselves are out of Red's domain (Ghost Rider nowithstanding, which is another modern screw-up of colourset). For Blade I'd merely flip the colours of Nightstalker and KYEC.
defixu wrote: I really appreciate the discussion and the work that has gone into this thread. I'm just wondering, whether the side-point you are advocating (consistent color roles) would actually be detrimental to the game? Wasn't it the case before Deadpool was out, that there just wasn't a purple that did damage? Back in those days, they adhered to color roles more stringently, but I honestly think that more variety has been beneficial.
defixu wrote: I really appreciate the discussion and the work that has gone into this thread. I'm just wondering, whether the side-point you are advocating (consistent color roles) would actually be detrimental to the game? Wasn't it the case before Deadpool was out, that there just wasn't a purple that did damage? Back in those days, they adhered to color roles more stringently, but I honestly think that more variety has been beneficial. Also, the biggest problem with your arguments is balance. I feel like you are totally neglecting impacts of color changes on game balance. Also, colors are one of the multple ways the devs use to balance characters. You have some key characters with powers that are so good that they force the devs to give new characters powers in the same colors, otherwise you'd have a broken pair that overwhelms a meta. A few examples: 1) The current influx of new green purple characters is due to Jean being so powerful, and is used as a way to balance the game. Just imagine if Scarlet Witch had her passive on purple instead of blue (makes more sense since she creates purple), had a good blue active stun (narratively legitimized as some kind of confuse/stun move) and a good black (since chaos magic fits). That pair would instantly be another fistbuster level pair in the meta because it is too strong. 2) In 3*land, it is no accident that Hood and Cage share the same active colors, since their passives synergize extremely well (Hood keeps enemy ap pool dry and Cage nullifies match dmg). Hood is only balanced because he has so little health, with Cage's protect tile he is not balanced anymore. 3) IM40 + any good Red-Blue user. People so often request IM40 to be buffed, but neglect that his yellow at 2 or less covers is great at fueling some of the heaviest hitters (4thor, Lcap, Cmags). It is balanced because he's a one-trick pony, and because he has a kick-me sign in pvp. In PVE however, he is very useful in fueling above mentioned chars. TL;DR: Some powers are so good that they force the devs to make color decisions that are not strictly in line with theoretically pure color roles. However, this is good for game balance, which is a more important issue to keep the game interesting and non-broken. Edit: What I forgot to add: You have to respect the playerbase. People have invested money and time into the current characters with their current color sets. You should not just change that without pragmatic reasons, because that would screw players. The better (and only) option is changing it via releasing good new characters with interesting color combinations, but they can not also be too good, otherwise they become meta-dominating. It is a thin line to walk, and d3 does not always achieve it.
Malcrof wrote: Moved to character forum
GuntherBlobel wrote: This shouldn't have been moved. It's a general discussion about the current game state, theory behind color themes and, yes, characters. Does General Discussion HAVE to be exclusively populated by complaining? What is General Discussion, if this isn't. Let's leave the Characters sub-forum as a place to discuss specific characters or teams. Please.
ErikPeter wrote: Just chiming in here to say that I think some of that 'getting worse' is actually keeping the game stable. E.g. IF/HB is a great combo because it covers 5 colors and just so happens that one feeder feeds the second feeder. If the colors overlapped (e.g. IF generates red with blue, punches with black) it'd be weaker, but still OK (IF's generator is that good, HB's blue isn't), and if they switched it up more (e.g. IF generates blue), now it isn't a good combo, but IF/Iceman becomes a nightmare instead or whatever. It's too late to form my thoughts about this, but using HB as an example again; you can really see that the devs are cautious about creating a better Red power than HB's fist. Cyc's is great but needs TU AP as well, Sam's is expensive and wants 9 Yellow first... Carnage... And some cheaper red powers with short stuns, probably not the kind of thing you'd bring along HB as a battery for. Because he makes his own Red. The minute they make some fast, efficient AoE in Red, HB/thatGuy is probably broken. So they can't. And I think they're doing a similar thing by keeping colors pretty tight.
Jaedenkaal wrote: Yeah he's got 4*thor in there by mistake.
Melevorn wrote: Jaedenkaal wrote: Yeah he's got 4*thor in there by mistake. Thanks, fixed.