Healthy Investments: Are you wasting Health Packs?

Blahahah

Hello, its your local Blahahah again!

So a common topic going on right now is the idea of 20 iso. Some people call for its abolishment before all other rewards are won, but before you consider such a thing, ask yourself... Are you wasting your health packs on trying to squeeze all of the iso out of a node? I come to you with some easy number work to determine if your investments of time and effort are worth it, or not! Note, this is not an opinion piece on if 20 iso is a good/bad thing, this is simply providing a means by which you can determine if the risk of getting 20 iso is worth the chance of more iso prizes.

PART I: PACKING IN THE VALUE

First off, whats the iso/time value of a health pack?

//For the sake of these examples, lets say you do not have a team of true healers, and are not at the maximum health pack number.\\

Iso value : 5 health packs = 1200 iso/200 hp , thus 1 health pack = 240 iso/40hp.
Time value : 1 health pack = 36 minutes.

As we can see here, if a node costs you 1 health pack, you would need to earn the 250 iso reward to compensate you for the efforts. This means, assuming you use 1 pack per match, that only half of the node rewards are truly worth it. This also means the 500 iso rewards is effectively a double of your investment.

PART II: EFFICENT EFFORTS!

Now that we have the base numbers, lets assume you've just played a node and won. Congradulations! Your reward was, on average, either 500 iso, 250 iso, 140 iso, or a standard token (lets assume a base 100 iso). Based on what you won, we can calculate your investment worth!

500 iso - winner winner, chicken dinner! You got the big haul on the first go, very nice. Looking into it, there aren't many high ticket isos left, so is it worth going back in?

First, lets calculate your profit from your efforts. You've gotten the 500 iso listed before, which is ~2.1 healthpacks. We will label this as X for now.
Next, we calculate the remaining node value. This is 410 iso (including the 20 iso), and we will be labeling this as Y.
Finally, we bring in the value of your health pack. As we are assuming a one-pack standard, this will be a stable 240 iso, and we will count the attempts as Z.

We are finding for the efficency, or "e", of another attempt.

Using the equation [X - 240(Z)] + Y = e , we can see that for your first run your numbers should look like [500-240(1)] + 410 = e , or 630 = e
Now what does this mean, you may ask... Plainly, if e > Y, it was an efficent attempt!

Now then, what about that second match? Lets assume 2 scenarios: You gain 250 iso, and you gain 20 iso (oh no!)

s1.
X = 750 , Y = 280, Z = 2

[750 - 240(2)] + 280 = 550
^ The above is pretty worth it still, as you've made up the healthpack cost with your winnings with an extra 1/5 of a pack to spare.

s2.
X = 520 , Y = 410 , Z = 480

[520 - 240(2)] + 410 = 450
^ Because 450 is more than 410, this was technically efficent, however in the next part we will discuss when it becomes inefficent!

PART III: THE BAD, THE UGLY, AND THE INEFFICENT!

In the above part, we discussed an example of a first and second attempt at a node. We assumed the best for the first part and granted this lucky player both the 500 and 250 iso gains, but also showed the 500 and 20 gain. As mentioned, this second example will come into discussion here: inefficency!

Lets now assume these 2 scenarios: You've played the node and won, and recieved the 100 iso. Then, after a second attempt, you got unlucky and recieved the 20 iso, or got lucky and recieved the 250 iso

s.1
X = 120 , Y = 910, Z = 2

[120 - 240(2)] + 910 = 550

s.2
X = 350 , Y = 680 , Z = 2

[350 - 240(2)] + 680 = 550

As you can see in both of the above examples, Y > e, so these aren't efficent attempts! This should be obvious, since your rate of return in both scenarios isn't covering the cost of the packs you've spent. Still, there is a key difference between the two. The astute should notice its the difference between Y and e!

To break it down into detail, let us divide the two again and note the statistics behind them.

s1.
910 - 550 = 360
Considering a third attempt would cost 240, this would bring the ending number to 600 even. As the highest prize still available is 500, even the best result wouldn't make this efficent to continue on with.

s2.
680 - 550 = 130
Consider a third attempt would cost 240, this would bring the ending number to 370. As the highest prize still available is 500, there is a chance to make this a more efficent outcome with a profit of 130 iso.



This brings us back to s2. of part II in which the numbers ended out as such:
[520 - 240(2)] + 410 = 450

As this is just slightly efficent, we must look to the highest possible outcome to decide if this is worth attempting a third time.
As before, we can find the difference of value by subtracting Y by e. In this case, its -40, meaning you have a 40 iso value in your favor.
From here, we can know that the second attempt would need a minimum of 200 iso to be efficent, however there are also chances of 20 iso.

For situations like this where the numbers are only slightly apart, I recommend calculating both possibilities and determining if efficency can be maintained.
In this case, 20 iso would result in a 260 iso difference, meaning the highest alternative isn't efficent in the worst case scenario.

Thusly, efficency cannot be maintained as a bad draw forfeits efficency, while anything but the best draw will still be inefficent.
We would not pursue this node a third time in the interest of investment in the short run.

PART IV: TIME HEALS ALL WOUNDS

The above scenarios are in regard to the ideal that we are operating strictly in the short run. However, as we all know, healthpacks regenerate over time (albiet slowly), and the efficency can be altered due to the gain of healthpacks over time. The way this is done is simple enough, in any given scenario the gain of a healthpack naturally would simply subtract 1 from your total attempts, as the gain of a healthpack nullifies the 240 iso cost from using one. Using this ideal, we have to take into account the time span involved.

Healthpacks, as shown above, take 36 minutes to regenerate. Assuming the average match takes 2 to 3 minutes, this means you'll have one pack every 18 to 12 matches, respectively. It also takes 6 hours to completely replenish your supply, meaning long downtimes (work, school, sleep) will circumvent the loss of healthpacks naturally, at the cost of time provided within your given node.

This means, given you spend all of the health packs as they become available without missing any replenishment attempts (meaning you always have at least 1 on cooldown at any given time), you would have 40 healthpacks per 24 hour node to work with, doubling to 80 for 48 hour nodes of course. For the sake of realism, lets say 35 health packs at any given time, giving an open span of about 3 hours from which we can assume timings aren't perfect, and 70 upon a 48 hour node.

If you would care to, you could apply these healthpacks to any close decisions upon efficency such as in the case of s2. from part 2.

PART V: NATURALS AND THE ARENA

This final part will cover two more aspects: Character healing rates naturally, and PvP.

First, character healing. Accordingly, the natural healing rates increase at standard rates per rank, starting at 12 health per minute for 1 and increasing by 6 per level, capping out at 30 health per minute for 4* characters, and assumably increasing by another unit of 6 in regards to 5 characters.

This is worth noting if you have back-up teams which can take over if the first team happens to be weakened, and can alleviate some pressure on health packs.

Next we will discuss the main point of this: Burst healing and True Healing. Burst healing is the common ideal behind healing, with popular characters such as Black Widow (original) and Kamila Khan supporting the team with temporary healing boosts that fall after battles. This helps curb health pack consumption, as it'll allow you to take less overall damage by creating a buffer. It is worth noting that burst healing is more readily available in most cases, and often carries some other effect that either enhances its own effect, or is enhanced by others, so while its temporary its still incredibly useful if you find yourself taking incremental damage over time.

True healing, while not as readily available, is the superior older brother to burst healing. True healing does not fall off after a battle, and often is the most efficent means by which you can progress and efficently harvest iso. This comes in many types, but most have some kind of a requirement about them: Wolverine and Daken require a certain amount of a certain tile, Rocket and Groot require to be at a lower health total, match a certain color, and for there to be team-up tiles, and others such as Ares and Deadpool (3*) require them to take damage. The one exception seems to be 4* Deadpool (disregarding Old Man Logan, whom isn't accessable for a majority of players), whom recieves decent healing and deals damage, but faces a somewhat steep red cost making it inconsistant. Because of these requirements, their power is curbed by how often you can reap the benefits. Mind you, teams can be formed that rely on true healing which are incredibly efficent, such as Mister Fantastic, Daken (classic) and Wolverine (patch), however these teams face certain issues of their own. Still, if you can have true healing, its very effective for taking care of nodes and retreating to the low-level prologue to lick their wounds.

Both of these must be considered in your compositions, as they innately increase your efficency when it comes to collecting that precious ISO.

As some recommendations:
Black Widow (original) - Easily the best support possible for transitioning players, her ability to stall enemy countdowns and mass-leech most colors while maintaining a very favorable colour combination makes her the best candidate for players who are just beginning and would like to be efficent in their progressions.

Beast (classic) - While one might wonder about why I'm not placing Kamila Khan here, she is a highly contested cover while Beast is not so sought after. He provides strong burst healing and creates a myriad of special tiles while providing a minor green AoE and board shake. The protect tiles he generates from his heals are sure to help any player keep that boosted health high, and he couples well with true healers who can use that boosted health to buffer their own healing rates.

Daken (classic) - His heal over time is valuable, and his strike tile generation allows for a steady progression of power. Matching Black Widow's color combination, he fits into plenty of teams for both beginners and veterans. His low health pool is deceptive, as he can heal up to 7% of it every single turn, meaning he can chew into prologue chapters and come out a fresh man.

Rocket/Groot (Most Wanted) - Their comic title says it all. You'll want these guys on your team. Hoisting an interesting combination of Blue, Green, and Yellow, they fit into the same spot Beast would whom shares the combination. A decent board shake, potentially huge damage from "I've got a plan", and an almost obscene amount of true self-healing from "I Am Groot", its not uncommon to see this character jump from 1000 health back to almost full health in an instant.



Finally, PvP and the "worth" of your battles. In this instance, there is no 20 iso reward, instead you are given a random chance at 70, 100, 140, 250, 500, and two cover choices which can provide 100 and 250. For these, generally you are going for placement so efficency wouldn't be as important, however in the case that you want to apply the calculation, [X - 240(z)] + Y = e, then you can exchange Y for the average iso amount which is around 220 iso, and Z will be how many packs you used more than your attempt amount. Your X will be the total sum of points.

For example, if I am at 400 and am playing someone who gives me 35 points, and the battle would (assumably) cost me 1 healthpack, then the calculation would be [435 - 240(1)] + 220 = 415, which is technically efficent in terms of iso, though any more than that amount in health packs would make it inefficent so such application isn't recommended. For these, its better to simply give consideration to health pack efficency in relation to point gain.

So thats the long and short of it. I hope if anyone has come looking to how they can figure if pushing for that last clear of the node is worth the risk of health packs, this can help them a little bit. Its the system I personally use and it works pretty well, I find myself clearing until the node makes itself inefficent and then moving on, preserving my health packs but still reaping maximum investments. Likewise, I hope this minor introduction to the concept of healing and its effects on the overall flow of progression may help some newer players who aren't used to the system. Thanks for reading!


(Spoiled for convenience, hopefully this makes navigation a bit easier and reduces page-stretch for you guys.)

Pongie

As good as these figures are, the whole purpose of repeating the node is only for the points for placement rewards. Command points and HP is pretty much the only exception.

Monged4life

Same as the above post really, I can't think why anyone would ever grind away all their health packs to try and get the 500iso reward. Just play a couple of games on the Shield Simulator or a Lightning Round and you'll have that with a lot less stress...

What has highlighted the 20iso recently as a problem is the inclusion of Command Points as node rewards, since people feel obligated to grind the node to dust until it gives up that one prize.

LegendReborn

Just because you can buy something for x, doesn't mean that you assign it x value. For example, we know that any reasonable person who isn't looking to throw away thousands and thousands of dollars would view the iso to dollar ratio as a massive joke. The value of a health pack is largely determined by your demand for it rather than a static ratio. Most of the time, health packs are hardly worth 40 hp a pop but in a bind, like during the end of an event or when you are very limited for the day for play time, they may be worth that, if not worth more to you.

PeterGibbons316

I appreciate the effort you put in to this, but hardly anyone will find this useful. Most people are playing for points - either to hit a progression, or a placement. So those are their priorities. Once those have been met they typically grind for CP or HP before ISO. The number of people playing primarily to acquire ISO is low.

The biggest point you are missing is that this only applies if there is some other mechanism available to spend your health packs more efficiently. Say I followed your method and was able to grind all nodes down to an "inefficient" level, and still have health packs remaining, where do I spend them?

ISO is a resource limited more by the amount of time you have available to play than the number of health packs you have. If I've gotten all the "efficient" rewards, but still have health packs, it makes more sense for me to spend those health packs earning smaller rewards before they disappear.

TxMoose

as others have said. I don't farm nodes for iso, especially the harder ones. I will farm for cp or hp and will burn thru a health pack here or there for those. if I replay a node its for points - for either progression or placement (or occasionally both). if I'm completely spent on health packs I'm definitely not farming for iso - means I'm grinding sub end or just finished a pvp push to first shield. I'm fairly liberal with iso boosts (so I don't gain that much iso from harder nodes anyway) and if I leave a 100 iso on a node after grinding it down, it really doesn't bother me at all. farming iso happens in LRs, not pve except for those special 1K iso nodes, but those are usually 1 and done.

Blahahah

Jeez...
The topic is looking at the current system in regards to the common complaint (which existed before command points) that the 20 iSo reward was awful because other prizes should all come first.

This is looking at the stance from a specifically iso-lated viewpoint. I am aware people clear nodes for placement, but all too often I see the argument that "I'm burning health packs and not getting enough iso!" In regards to character progression and leveling, thus I made the topic to point out that if you are making inefficient decisions with your health packs and gambling on picking up the 500 iso reward, then it can't be helped that bad draws happen.

Like I personally play PvP for my Iso fix, but Im also tired of listening to the same complaint every time. Consider it more a countenance to the problem of 20 iso, as the first paragraph would lead to.

Likewise if it were a solely placement focus for clearing nodes, such a complaint wouldn't exist because the iso values would be irrelevant, yes?

simonsez

Blahahah wrote:

Likewise if it were a solely placement focus for clearing nodes, such a complaint wouldn't exist because the iso values would be irrelevant, yes?

Did your boss just call you into a meeting and say, "Since you all are working here in order to earn a weekly salary, the size of your holiday bonus is irrelevant, yes?"

PeterGibbons316

Blahahah wrote:

"I'm burning health packs and not getting enough iso!"

Found the problem. This is not what people are saying at all.

People are burning health packs repeating the hardest PvE node over and over to try and get the command point reward. Instead of earning that reward they are given a 20 ISO reward, which is a paltry reward for such an effort.

Blahahah

PeterGibbons316 wrote:

Blahahah wrote:

"I'm burning health packs and not getting enough iso!"

Found the problem. This is not what people are saying at all.

People are burning health packs repeating the hardest PvE node over and over to try and get the command point reward. Instead of earning that reward they are given a 20 ISO reward, which is a paltry reward for such an effort.

The complaint predates command point inclusion, soooo...

Blahahah

simonsez wrote:

Blahahah wrote:

Likewise if it were a solely placement focus for clearing nodes, such a complaint wouldn't exist because the iso values would be irrelevant, yes?

Did your boss just call you into a meeting and say, "Since you all are working here in order to earn a weekly salary, the size of your holiday bonus is irrelevant, yes?"

it wouldn't surprise me

TxMoose

Blahahah wrote:

Likewise if it were a solely placement focus for clearing nodes, such a complaint wouldn't exist because the iso values would be irrelevant, yes?

I never really hated the 20 iso issue until the first antman event when they put hp in the nodes. hard nodes that took health packs to clear, but I was chasing hp, not iso. 20 iso vs. 100/200/250/500 iso, for me, was meh, whatever. it sucked to take down a hard node and just get 20 iso, but compared to 250 iso, whatever - not gonna get my panties in a bunch over 230 iso. when it was 20 iso for the 6th and 8th time and only 1/4 awards were given and one of those was hp (and now cp). that was a whole different animal and really highlighted the mechanic they have chosen to apply. I really think the introduction of cp into pve nodes has brought the issue to the forefront.

edit:

Blahahah wrote:

The complaint predates command point inclusion, soooo...

true there was complaining about it before, but not nearly as much as after cp introduction. I remember a spike after the first antman event as well that had hp in the nodes. I posted this a month ago shortly after cp were intro'ed in a thread about critical boosts:

TxMoose wrote:

I bet there's a lot more threads about getting 20 iso 5 and 6 times when the cp is still in there in a few days.

Blahahah

The problem gets a lot more complex when you include the chance to get 20 being some weird 32% odds from the first reward.

I think my original equation and post (I rewrote this twice) included those percentages and all, got too messy.

IMO they should make command points like tokens: clear a survival node and get it automatically. That's my one grievance, but I mean that's it.