Pay to Win...What exactly?

GrumpySmurf1002

In light of the infinity number of Legendary threads, I see a lot of "Legendaries made/are making the game pay to win." Going beyond the point that the game was pay to win long before that (shields aren't free), what exactly is anyone 'winning' in this game?

There are progression rewards to 'win,' but those aren't P2W in PvE and not really in PvP either (though you do need to spend HP to shield, one can be self-sustaining to do so), so that can't be what anyone means.

PvP is a giant blob of alliance nepotism and coordination with very little in the way of actual competition. 'Winning' amounts to being attacked the least and coordinating the most. Without true competition, 1st place means virtually nothing. The reward of 1 cover out of soon to be 312 in the tier is hardly consequential to anything.

PvE is considerably less P2W as a mechanic, but again the reward is roughly the same for first as it is 10th, with one extra cover in a sea of covers.

In both cases, effort and resources exerted are thwarted by a bracket/reward system that can you give you the same thing whether you score 300 or 3000, assuming you're lucky enough.

I'm not saying that this is Thermonuclear War, but if you're hung up on 'winning' in this game, you're chasing a unicorn.

Nightglider1

It's "pay to feel better than the other 999 (or whatever) people in your bracket."

XandorXerxes

Your definition of "pay to win" is far too narrow.

I could drop a few hundred dollars and max jean-buster and hit 1,000 without trying. If I was a 2* player and had some cover-luck (or just bought a bunch of 40-packs) I could do the same thing, skipping the middle 3* tier entirely. That's paying to win.

GrumpySmurf1002

XandorXerxes wrote:

Your definition of "pay to win" is far too narrow.

I could drop a few hundred dollars and max jean-buster and hit 1,000 without trying. If I was a 2* player and had some cover-luck (or just bought a bunch of 40-packs) I could do the same thing, skipping the middle 3* tier entirely. That's paying to win.

So 'winning' is being able to hit a personal progression reward? You could've done that before Legendaries existed, and/or the game has always been P2W.

Which ok, if it is and that's the definition, but there seems to be a lot of screaming about something that doesn't change the P2W definition. If anything, with 5* being completely luck driven, then it's like the opposite of P2W, you can't just buy your way into the tier (well with CP you can now, but still need the initial covers)

udonomefoo

Ironically, to me, winning is spending less time playing the game.

Let that sink in.

The better your characters are, the faster you can burn through pvp. Winfinite cuts your pve time down considerably. Paying lets you still "win" without "losing" as much of your life.

TxMoose

the paying I've done was mainly to strategically speed the progression progress. from 2 -> 3 I picked a couple of key characters and took them up. that's when I started hitting t100 consistently. more recently I spent the same amt of hp on jean and hb and am hitting 1300 more often than not recently. haven't ever won a bracket but being able to land in a t15 alliance and getting some scattered t10 and consistent t50 finishes is winning for me. starting the game a year after release and not willing to go megawhale, spending a little helped speed the process along. have never and probably will never win a bracket, but I'm winning for me. I just had my 1 year anniversary (started playing last thanksgiving) and I have and am enjoying the game, faults and all. for reference, total spend so far is $260. much of that was wasted when I was learning to hop. much trial and error there. could have been a little more efficient with things but not bad overall. enough hp to last into next year. $20/month is not outrageous for something I get so many hours of enjoyment from. heck, that is one trip to the movies with popcorn and a coke - and that doesn't include kids or wife. i'll take $20 into mpq almost every time over a trip to the movies (almost) and wait till it comes out on tv or ppv.

regarding the megawhale P2W complaints. the rng can be overwhelmed by pure dollar volume and some have chosen to do that. I for one don't care because I'm not striving for first place. I just want to be solid towards the top. if only first made me happy, it'd be a pretty miserable life.

XandorXerxes

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

XandorXerxes wrote:

Your definition of "pay to win" is far too narrow.

I could drop a few hundred dollars and max jean-buster and hit 1,000 without trying. If I was a 2* player and had some cover-luck (or just bought a bunch of 40-packs) I could do the same thing, skipping the middle 3* tier entirely. That's paying to win.

So 'winning' is being able to hit a personal progression reward? You could've done that before Legendaries existed, and/or the game has always been P2W.

Which ok, if it is and that's the definition, but there seems to be a lot of screaming about something that doesn't change the P2W definition. If anything, with 5* being completely luck driven, then it's like the opposite of P2W, you can't just buy your way into the tier (well with CP you can now, but still need the initial covers)

It's like any other game. People in microtransaction RPGs can "pay to win" by buying all the latest and greatest gear, or buying levels, experience, etc. The "winning" isn't hitting in-game progression rewards, it's hitting the meta-game progression rewards.

The game has always been pay-to-win, but MPQ used to have a FTP model that allowed the end stages to be obtainable. That FTP model no longer reasonably exists. You can buy your way into the 5* tier by buying 40-packs, as was quickly revealed after Silver Surfer dropped. You just have to buy a lot more than you did before - and it certainly looks like people do / did. The lack of drops for the final tier is probably exactly why people are calling it pay to win. You have to spend an absurdly long time or pony up a large amount of cash to achieve it. Once the long time reaches a threshold subjective to each person, it becomes pay to win for them.

The 4* tier is now pay to win to me. Accounting for all methods of earning 4*s, if you had absolutely incredible luck it would still take you over 1.5 years starting from scratch to really be in the 4* tier starting from the 3* tier and earning perfect rewards every event (perfect for 3* - 1K PvP, LT PvE, even added in the eventual LT DDQ). Now there's another tier on top of that one that's even slower, and a lot more luck based. Half of the players will be on the bottom half of the curve, so they could be looking at 2-3 years depending on how low their luck is just to make it to 4*. How are they going to transition to 5* at a 10% clip?

Meanwhile, everyone who "whaled" (embraced PTW - their choice, not knocking it) has the 4* meta, some have all of the 5*s. At least one has several of a few 5*s. When new 5*s drop, these players are in prime position to acquire them, as they can effortlessly earn tokens. When new game modes drop like 4* DDQ - they're ready to go with their all-maxed team. The FTP players who aren't already in the top of the game will fall behind every character release (4* or 5*) as their chances of getting any particular (especially useful) cover drop, that's the design of the game. If they want to get ahead of that curve, the answer is simple - pony up cash.

Thus, pay to win.

orionpeace

In this kind of game "winning" is roughly defined as a state of being where a player is achieving the desired results at a rate/ratio that is perceived as above acceptable or the norm at a level of difficulty that is usually deemed comfortable.

So, it is more about perception and a feeling than any particular objective.

They are paying to remain in the state of "winning".

udonomefoo

aesthetocyst wrote:

udonomefoo wrote:

Ironically, to me, winning is spending less time playing the game...The better your characters are, the faster you can burn through pvp. Winfinite cuts your pve time down considerably. Paying lets you still "win" without "losing" as much of your life.

Wow, spoken like a true addict!

You don't know me. You don't know how much time I do or do not spend on this game and you completely missed the point.

Do you like strong characters? How about fast matches? Hate slow animations and falcon pvp's? Like getting 70 pts per match instead of 40? Like not getting hit a lot in pvp? Like not getting wiped in pve?

Wow! You must be an addict!

Omega Red

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

PvP is a giant blob of alliance nepotism and coordination with very little in the way of actual competition. 'Winning' amounts to being attacked the least and coordinating the most. Without true competition,

I just wanted to highlight this point which I consider to be absolutely true.

Malcrof

How about we not insult people and call them names for spending money on something they like? If you want something right now.. then there is a way.. if you want to grind it out, and take the standard road.. more power to ya.. but neither way is wrong.

Omega Red

For me, "winning" in this game is getting new covers, building my characters so I can get to actually play with them. Yes, I'm the kind of dork who actually plays with his Elektra or Invisible woman whenever possible and even dares to have fun doing it.

Unknown

op might need to change the title, i suggest 'Feel-to-Win, what do what not to do' to reflect content

Unknown

Friend of mine who plays this game with me started much later.
I always encouraged him to play more and keep his 3 / 4 star characters pulled.
He asked me whats the difference if he has all 4 star or all 2 stars?
At the end of the day what is he getting by transitioning his roster to the next level?
I said so he can get better and place higher.
So he asked and then what?

I had no real response to that other than it's fun...lol

Jarvind

On a related note I would happily pay to win an end to all the legendary token whine threads

ammenell

mango_sentinel wrote:

Friend of mine who plays this game with me started much later.
I always encouraged him to play more and keep his 3 / 4 star characters pulled.
He asked me whats the difference if he has all 4 star or all 2 stars?
At the end of the day what is he getting by transitioning his roster to the next level?
I said so he can get better and place higher.
So he asked and then what?

I had no real response to that other than it's fun...lol

and it shouldnt need another response, imo.

you play to get your rewards, in this case covers/iso/hp, so you can get better characters to get even more covers/iso/hp, so you can get even better....

i had the same with borderlands. diablo. castlevania. darksiders.
heck, thats the way beat em ups work for me, just replace covers/iso/hp with skill progression.
what more reason do i need to keep playing?