Is the PvE fair for everybody?

D4Ni13

First of all, I want to make a thing clear: I'm making this topic because I like this game so much, and I want it to become better and better. And I'm making it because I don't think the PvE (or this PvE type) is fair for everybody right now.

I can't say I'm a PvE player. Sure I made all of The Gauntlet's simulations, I participated in Galactus events, I played some Enemy of the State, and now the Hearts of Darkness, but there are many PvE events that I just skipped. In other words, I play PvE for certain rewards in general: characters, tokens and maybe some ISO.

Until now I thought that the difference between a top player and an average one in PvE it reduces to "if you have the requested characters" for the event nodes or not. For instance in the Gauntlet, despite ending all the simulations, I wasn't able to take the last ladder rewards because I didn't have Daken (tough luck).

So I find myself now, playing Hearts of Darkness, completing all the nodes in Unholy Alliance, and earning somewhere at 5200 points, only to see myself in top 150. I went checking the overall points, and saw that first place has 12000+ points with 12 hours left to go. I replayed some missions and reached 8300 points. I was rank 49. Sidenote: Invested 2 hours (played on Steam). I left the game, was late, went to sleep.
5 hours later, I'm again in rank 150 and the first place has 15000+ points, with 5 hours to go.

Now I knew that replaying missions gave you extra points, but I didn't realize by now the unfairness of this system of PvE.
I had all the required characters needed, I completed all the nodes, and I'm not near top 100, where the actual good stuff is, because I only played once in the event, while other played 3 or 4 times. And there is still time left to fall even lower. What about players who don't have all the required characters.
If a player with all required characters and all nodes completed have no chance for the top 100 rewards, then what chance does the other players have?

How is the system now?
You get max points if you play as much as you can in certain intervals of time. For this 24h mission you score max points if you play 4 times, at the right start of the event, 8h marks, 16h mark and at the end of the event.

So lets do a breakdown.
1. Play at the start of the event.
This is the time the event starts. You have to do all the nodes once and earn all the points. Then wait 8 hours to refresh the full points.

2. 8th hour mark
Play again repeating all the missions. (You shoud have double the points?)

3. 16h hour mark
Play yet again repeating all the missions.

4. 1-2h or so before the end of the event
Play all the missions you can more than once, until you have nothing to play.

Conclusion:
Requirements to do max points: All needed characters + lots of TIME.


So my question is: how is this fair to everybody? What king of people have the necessary time to play like this for max points?
I, for instance, can play only once a day. And I'm sure as hell (pun intended) that others are in the same situation as myself.
Is a guy who played 4 times in 24h better than one who played only once ?

Well in PvP he should be. But in PvE he shouldn't. PvE is mission type content, in which everybody has a fair change of getting what they need as long as they complete the mission. PvE should not be about who played most the same missions over and over again.
In my opinion the only fair PvE event was the kind of the last Gauntlet. You have a certain time to complete the missions, and you get the rewards regardless of the fact that you played a mission only once, and others played it 5 times.

That is the reason why many players only play PvE in online games. Because they are sure of the rewards they get and are not competing with players who have a lot more time invested in the game. You have to understand the frustration of playing and completing an entire event and not earning one single cover of the main character for which the event is in the first place.

Am I saying something wrong here? What do you guys think?



And because it's not nice, nor valuable, to criticize something without giving a solution, you can find my solution for the PvE problem below.

I like the ideea of side events and rewards. It's nice to have a chance to earn a couple of tokens beside what the ladder gives you. And I think that the solution has to be here somehow.

My solution looks like this:
The main event rewards should not be ranked based, but ladder based. You complete all the mission you get the rewards. Period.
If you want more, then compete with others in side events, where you can earn extra tokens, and extra covers, and whatever other rewards you want, based on rank in that specific side event.

In this way, everybody who completes a PvE event would at least have a piece of the reward. If they got the time and motivation to earn more, then even better.

As for an ending on this matter, I take myself as an example when I say that if I see no chance on getting the reward I want from an event, I won't be motivated to play in that event at all. And if I think I have a chance to win something and I don't, then it's even worse, because I invested time in it. I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking this.

So let the debate begin. Do you find the current PvE described fair to everybody? Or would you like a change also?

Unknown

what you stated is completely true. But the largest disadvantage comes from the fact that you play on steam. Other players play from tablet and mobile and can just play nodes in a 10 minute lunchbreak. In top alliances people even set their alarm clock in the middle of the night so they dont miss their clear (i am not joking ...). So there is no point trying to compete with them, since you will never beat them.

Additionally it also depends on the bracket you are in, since you only compete with these other 999 players.
The amount of total points to just enter top100 in 1 bracket can be enough to enter top10 in another bracket. That is the so called "veteran and noob" brackets. But in order to get in a noob bracket, you need to completely skip 1 or 2 PvE events, you will then be placed in a much easier bracket for the next PvE event, where you can easily achieve a high ranking.
(that is what i am doing too, if i am not interested in the covers, completely skip it or clear it only once in 3 days)

(also if i remember correctly, a long time ago the nodes used to only takes 4 hours to fill up, so they reduced it to 8, which was very nice)

D4Ni13

BlackBoltRocks wrote:

To me I've never bought into the whole competitive aspect of the game. Not just in PvE, but also in PvP. Where's the logic of me being hit for 200 points, but I can only retaliate someone for 2 points?

I might not be exactly answering your question, but recently I've approached the game the way I feel it should be: competing against no one but myself. Or in other words, I only care about progression rewards. The last time I really bothered to get top 10 in a PvE was the Jean Grey and Mr Fantastic introductions, so I could get all three of their covers. Once you stop bothering about other players and just focus on yourself, the game will become so much more fun and enjoyable.

By extension, that includes not bothering about those who can clear each node in each sub down to 1 point. I don't know if you're a F2P player like me, but if you are, you have to accept this cold hard fact: if you don't wanna spend money, you're either gonna have to grind like crazy (and that includes finding a top 100 alliance), or you can be like me: I'm the personification of supremely casual. Case in point: I've only earned 3 Legendary tokens from PvE so far (I've earned 9 in total since it was implemented).

To answer the question in your topic: no, it's not fair for everyone, because there will always be that bunch of whales. Just treat this game for what it is: a free mobile game. Don't invest or expect too much out of it, or you will inevitably be disappointed. The code I live by is: if I'm not having fun, I won't play it. The moment you feel you're not having fun, that you want to throw your phone or whatever device across the room, switch the game off and do something more worthwhile. Games are supposed to give you enjoyment; once they stop doing that, it's not worth your time and effort. It won't be fair, so make it fair for yourself.

Very nice said. I'm a F2P player, yes. Kind of thinking this days if It worthwhile for me to become more competitive. Your post made me think a little more on this aspect. I think you're right, though. Probably is better to just play for fun and let is be, if I win, I win, if not, not...

D4Ni13

Frasaria wrote:

Additionally it also depends on the bracket you are in, since you only compete with these other 999 players.
The amount of total points to just enter top100 in 1 bracket can be enough to enter top10 in another bracket. That is the so called "veteran and noob" brackets. But in order to get in a noob bracket, you need to completely skip 1 or 2 PvE events, you will then be placed in a much easier bracket for the next PvE event, where you can easily achieve a high ranking.
(that is what i am doing too, if i am not interested in the covers, completely skip it or clear it only once in 3 days)

You are correct with the brackets, though, I don't know if the difference between finding yourself in one or another is anyway influenced by the fact that you played or not in the last events. I think it's more of a choosing the time interval thing. If you have the luck to choose the time interval which have"weaker" players overall than others, you will have a bigger change of advancing higher and faster.

Unknown

Rewards of nodes, should be receive three rewards offered and then only receive 20 Iso.

Also they should separate those who have a very low rooster in a different pve. I've played with guy who had all 2 * and 3 * to level 99. Do you think my grinding or his would be better? My level generally varies between 350 or 270 because of my characters. His should be around 130.

About your Comment: Since I started the pve game works in this way, began six months after its release. By way of distributing rewards at each node and the final award indicates that the goal is to make you play as long as possible MPQ and not go to rival games. Low rewards force you to spend money on and to progress. I doubt very much they change this way of progress.

I just game pve to and / or some new token. It could be for , but do not have time and patience to grind the same node multiple times. At the beginning you get too excited because it receives several new rewards. Over time they become more and more scarce.

Currently, I need one whole week of LR to win a LT, , and just see something new with 1k in pvp. Hardly comes something else. In addition, LT has many repeated and currently only getting many covers with low expression.

Unknown

D4Ni13 wrote:

BlackBoltRocks wrote:

To me I've never bought into the whole competitive aspect of the game. Not just in PvE, but also in PvP. Where's the logic of me being hit for 200 points, but I can only retaliate someone for 2 points?

I might not be exactly answering your question, but recently I've approached the game the way I feel it should be: competing against no one but myself. Or in other words, I only care about progression rewards. The last time I really bothered to get top 10 in a PvE was the Jean Grey and Mr Fantastic introductions, so I could get all three of their covers. Once you stop bothering about other players and just focus on yourself, the game will become so much more fun and enjoyable.

By extension, that includes not bothering about those who can clear each node in each sub down to 1 point. I don't know if you're a F2P player like me, but if you are, you have to accept this cold hard fact: if you don't wanna spend money, you're either gonna have to grind like crazy (and that includes finding a top 100 alliance), or you can be like me: I'm the personification of supremely casual. Case in point: I've only earned 3 Legendary tokens from PvE so far (I've earned 9 in total since it was implemented).

To answer the question in your topic: no, it's not fair for everyone, because there will always be that bunch of whales. Just treat this game for what it is: a free mobile game. Don't invest or expect too much out of it, or you will inevitably be disappointed. The code I live by is: if I'm not having fun, I won't play it. The moment you feel you're not having fun, that you want to throw your phone or whatever device across the room, switch the game off and do something more worthwhile. Games are supposed to give you enjoyment; once they stop doing that, it's not worth your time and effort. It won't be fair, so make it fair for yourself.

Very nice said. I'm a F2P player, yes. Kind of thinking this days if It worthwhile for me to become more competitive. Your post made me think a little more on this aspect. I think you're right, though. Probably is better to just play for fun and let is be, if I win, I win, if not, not...

Excellent comment.

Some caveats: I am in favor of whales. It is they who keeps active play. Without them we would not have a team implementing many new features constantly. It would be a game that you pay an initial value X and then don't pay more, but there is nothing new in the game after purchase, generally. If there is, you usually have to pay to get it.

As they pay to play, it is only fair that they get the top positions. Only you would be able to compete with them if he spent a lot of time. Here you have two not mutually exclusive choices: time and / or money.

The pvp is the way to make the game more competitive and force you to spend money and / or time. If you know you will be attacked and retaliation will provide a few points then you should put her shield. How to buy shield if I have to improve my characters and buy new slots? Or spend my time grinding pve or buy HP.It can also be both. They will not change this form of gameplay because it is very profitable.

Quebbster

Frasaria wrote:

(also if i remember correctly, a long time ago the nodes used to only takes 4 hours to fill up, so they reduced it to 8, which was very nice)

Your memory is incorrect. The refresh time was 2 hours and 24 minutes. If you wanted to be on top then, there was a whole lot of grinding needed.

Nick441234

I find the 8 hour refresh very comfortable to hit. You are looking at maybe 30 mins every 8 hours play time to finish with a pretty decent score at the end of the event. Sure, if you want a top 100 finish, you are going to have to grind at the end, but even thats not that time consuming.

I suppose it just comes down to whether you are hardcore with both PVE and PVP. My PVP play is minimal, so I'm able to cope with the PVE play without much stress. You'd have to be a nutter to be hardcore in both.

statnut

I've done three clears of each node and rank 317 in heart of darkness. What's the point of grinding when you're that far behind?

Nick441234

You'll move up. I've done 3 clears and now starting on grinding them as approaching the end. I've done the first 4 nodes so far and I'm up to 125th now. I too was around 300 after the 3rd clear.

PeterGibbons316

D4Ni13 wrote:

Well in PvP he should be. But in PvE he shouldn't. PvE is mission type content, in which everybody has a fair change of getting what they need as long as they complete the mission. PvE should not be about who played most the same missions over and over again.
In my opinion the only fair PvE event was the kind of the last Gauntlet. You have a certain time to complete the missions, and you get the rewards regardless of the fact that you played a mission only once, and others played it 5 times.

That is the reason why many players only play PvE in online games. Because they are sure of the rewards they get and are not competing with players who have a lot more time invested in the game. You have to understand the frustration of playing and completing an entire event and not earning one single cover of the main character for which the event is in the first place.

Am I saying something wrong here? What do you guys think?

I think PvP is a way for people to compete based on roster stregnth, and PvE is a way for people to compete based on their time commitment to the game. If you are new to the game, but love it and play all the time - you should be rewarded for that, and progress faster than a casual player that only plays once/day - that reward mechanism is PvE.

Omega Red

D4Ni13 wrote:

So my question is: how is this fair to everybody? What king of people have the necessary time to play like this for max points?

This is more an issue of lifestyle choices than game design.

D4Ni13 wrote:

I, for instance, can play only once a day. And I'm sure as hell (pun intended) that others are in the same situation as myself.

It's too bad that you can play only once a day, but this is not a problem caused by the game design. There's nothing the devs can do about your busy life and your limited time. Again, lifestyle choices.

D4Ni13 wrote:

Is a guy who played 4 times in 24h better than one who played only once ?

Well in PvP he should be. But in PvE he shouldn't. PvE is mission type content, in which everybody has a fair change of getting what they need as long as they complete the mission. PvE should not be about who played most the same missions over and over again.

This is a competition, not an evaluation. The best is the one who can gather the most points given the rules set. Do you think that having all the required characters and clearing a sub makes you good? special? Hundreds of guys are in your position. Just clearing a mission is not an accurate measure of one's ability to beat the game.

TheOncomingStorm

D4Ni13 wrote:

First of all, I want to make a thing clear: I'm making this topic because I like this game so much, and I want it to become better and better. And I'm making it because I don't think the PvE (or this PvE type) is fair for everybody right now.

I can't say I'm a PvE player. Sure I made all of The Gauntlet's simulations, I participated in Galactus events, I played some Enemy of the State, and now the Hearts of Darkness, but there are many PvE events that I just skipped. In other words, I play PvE for certain rewards in general: characters, tokens and maybe some ISO.

Until now I thought that the difference between a top player and an average one in PvE it reduces to "if you have the requested characters" for the event nodes or not. For instance in the Gauntlet, despite ending all the simulations, I wasn't able to take the last ladder rewards because I didn't have Daken (tough luck).

So I find myself now, playing Hearts of Darkness, completing all the nodes in Unholy Alliance, and earning somewhere at 5200 points, only to see myself in top 150. I went checking the overall points, and saw that first place has 12000+ points with 12 hours left to go. I replayed some missions and reached 8300 points. I was rank 49. Sidenote: Invested 2 hours (played on Steam). I left the game, was late, went to sleep.
5 hours later, I'm again in rank 150 and the first place has 15000+ points, with 5 hours to go.

Now I knew that replaying missions gave you extra points, but I didn't realize by now the unfairness of this system of PvE.
I had all the required characters needed, I completed all the nodes, and I'm not near top 100, where the actual good stuff is, because I only played once in the event, while other played 3 or 4 times. And there is still time left to fall even lower. What about players who don't have all the required characters.
If a player with all required characters and all nodes completed have no chance for the top 100 rewards, then what chance does the other players have?

How is the system now?
You get max points if you play as much as you can in certain intervals of time. For this 24h mission you score max points if you play 4 times, at the right start of the event, 8h marks, 16h mark and at the end of the event.

So lets do a breakdown.
1. Play at the start of the event.
This is the time the event starts. You have to do all the nodes once and earn all the points. Then wait 8 hours to refresh the full points.

2. 8th hour mark
Play again repeating all the missions. (You shoud have double the points?)

3. 16h hour mark
Play yet again repeating all the missions.

4. 1-2h or so before the end of the event
Play all the missions you can more than once, until you have nothing to play.

Conclusion:
Requirements to do max points: All needed characters + lots of TIME.


So my question is: how is this fair to everybody? What king of people have the necessary time to play like this for max points?
I, for instance, can play only once a day. And I'm sure as hell (pun intended) that others are in the same situation as myself.
Is a guy who played 4 times in 24h better than one who played only once ?

Well in PvP he should be. But in PvE he shouldn't. PvE is mission type content, in which everybody has a fair change of getting what they need as long as they complete the mission. PvE should not be about who played most the same missions over and over again.
In my opinion the only fair PvE event was the kind of the last Gauntlet. You have a certain time to complete the missions, and you get the rewards regardless of the fact that you played a mission only once, and others played it 5 times.

That is the reason why many players only play PvE in online games. Because they are sure of the rewards they get and are not competing with players who have a lot more time invested in the game. You have to understand the frustration of playing and completing an entire event and not earning one single cover of the main character for which the event is in the first place.

Am I saying something wrong here? What do you guys think?



And because it's not nice, nor valuable, to criticize something without giving a solution, you can find my solution for the PvE problem below.

I like the ideea of side events and rewards. It's nice to have a chance to earn a couple of tokens beside what the ladder gives you. And I think that the solution has to be here somehow.

My solution looks like this:
The main event rewards should not be ranked based, but ladder based. You complete all the mission you get the rewards. Period.
If you want more, then compete with others in side events, where you can earn extra tokens, and extra covers, and whatever other rewards you want, based on rank in that specific side event.

In this way, everybody who completes a PvE event would at least have a piece of the reward. If they got the time and motivation to earn more, then even better.

As for an ending on this matter, I take myself as an example when I say that if I see no chance on getting the reward I want from an event, I won't be motivated to play in that event at all. And if I think I have a chance to win something and I don't, then it's even worse, because I invested time in it. I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking this.

So let the debate begin. Do you find the current PvE described fair to everybody? Or would you like a change also?

This has long been an issue. It is actually better than it used to be. Sadly, I have been even lazier than normal and still have not posted my suggestion to making pve more palatable. I guess can put an abbreviated version here.

1. Each sub has the same number of repeatable nodes with designations such as easy 1, easy 2, easy 3, hard 1, hard 2, hard 3, essential 1, etc.

2. The refresh timers don't refresh for nodes from sub to sub. In other words, if you grind easy 1 node to a 32 hour to max points at the end of the sub, the timer for easy 1 node for the next sub will still be 32 hours, not the automatic full we have now.

3. Sub rewards will be progressive, not placement like Ultron and Galactus.

What does this mean? Optimal play requires only playing 3 times per day with the final grind bring the only grind (and determining event placement.

Why? Pve burn out and it's time requirements are probably the top reasons players leave the game or make the game less enjoyable for current players.

My proposal may not be perfect, but I feel it would be a great quality if life improvement for the player base.

Bryan Lambert

The issue, which has been a constant for pretty much the entirety of MPQ, is that they take something that everyone wants (new character) and make it so that only one in ten players can get it.

I'm not sure why they make it so difficult. There are 87 characters in the game, and with the exception of the prologue characters, two of them were given to everyone as a PvE prize - Hulk and Sentry.

Imagine how nice it would be if they just gave out one cover of the new character at the end of the PvE as a one and done node reward. Let the Legendary grinders grind for the progression reward, the hardcore and whales compete for extra covers in top placement, and sell everyone else a roster slot for the new cover. It continues to seem insane for them to limit access to the first cover this way.

Also, let's not discout the effect putting CP's on node rewards has had on the overall grind level - people are grinding those nodes down to nubs whether they need the points or not.

XandorXerxes

BlackBoltRocks wrote:

To me I've never bought into the whole competitive aspect of the game. Not just in PvE, but also in PvP. Where's the logic of me being hit for 200 points, but I can only retaliate someone for 2 points?

I might not be exactly answering your question, but recently I've approached the game the way I feel it should be: competing against no one but myself. Or in other words, I only care about progression rewards.

This is true, but flawed - to really progress I need to be hitting 1K in PvP, and if I'm hitting 1K in PvP I have to be very aware of who is playing and when.

optimus2861

Bryan Lambert wrote:

The issue, which has been a constant for pretty much the entirety of MPQ, is that they take something that everyone wants (new character) and make it so that only one in ten players can get it.

I'm not sure why they make it so difficult.

Because they want us to click "Buy Now!" on those 10- and 42-packs to try to get the character that way. And if you still fail, "Oh, so sad. RNG, you know. Nothing we can do about it. Buy more tokens!"

Meanwhile, Future Fight once again introduced a new character, Jessica Jones, and gave her away at 2* level to everyone who logged in over a 7-day period. No muss, no fuss, no competition. "Here, everyone, we made a great new character, come try her out!"

On which game do you suppose I just spent some money?

nic13

Everyone says they want pve to be progression-only. I think that's a fair idea and support it entirely.

Now. For the sake of discussion only, if we say pve is us vs computer, then should pvp be placement only? It's player vs player, should there still be progression rewards?

And if a placement-only pvp is a tradeoff we must take in exchange for a progression only pve, are players willing to accept that?

snlf25

PvE is not fair to anyone because it isn't PvE but just another form of thinly disguised PvP.

timbopp

optimus2861 wrote:

Bryan Lambert wrote:

The issue, which has been a constant for pretty much the entirety of MPQ, is that they take something that everyone wants (new character) and make it so that only one in ten players can get it.

I'm not sure why they make it so difficult.

Because they want us to click "Buy Now!" on those 10- and 42-packs to try to get the character that way. And if you still fail, "Oh, so sad. RNG, you know. Nothing we can do about it. Buy more tokens!"

Meanwhile, Future Fight once again introduced a new character, Jessica Jones, and gave her away at 2* level to everyone who logged in over a 7-day period. No muss, no fuss, no competition. "Here, everyone, we made a great new character, come try her out!"

On which game do you suppose I just spent some money?

They've even said before that they get a lot of revenue from roster slots so why not just give away 1 cover of a new character? Pretty much everyone would then need to buy another slot to roster them. A single cover level 70 4* isn't going to break the game. It doesn't even have to be 'gifted', I like the reward for logging in idea or how about incorporate the hulk/sentry style reward node at the end of the pve (hopefully they've done this for Heart of Darkness, I'm still on 2nd sub).

They have taken good steps with legendary token and command points in increasing the flow of 4* but the reward structure of pve is really starting to show it's age,

BlackSheep101

If what you want are progression rewards, and you can get a ton of them in every pve event, what do you care if others go for placement rewards? Get your iso, hp, covers and tokens, take whatever placement bucket you happen to land in, and stop worrying about how everyone else plays the game.

Crowl

BlackSheep101 wrote:

If what you want are progression rewards, and you can get a ton of them in every pve event, what do you care if others go for placement rewards? Get your iso, hp, covers and tokens, take whatever placement bucket you happen to land in, and stop worrying about how everyone else plays the game.

The issue for them is presumably that they take a quite reasonable view that pve events should be giving the majority of their rewards based on progression since that is more dependent on personal performance rather than the more arbitrary placement rewards where there is the luck of what group you end up in.