Balance the Characters

OneLastGambit

I nearly entitled this thread re-balancing characters but then I realised it was never balanced to begin with.

Who? IM40 - Never looked at him before, until I recently acquired him and jeez...you guys screwed him over royally.

So his blue costs 20AP to use...which drains 2AP from every colour making him a massive albatross for any team possessing him. He's almost a double agent for the opposition. Don't get me wrong, I'm complaining about the drain. The cost of the skill is outrageous for what it is, even at Max level it does not justify the cost at all. For reference... Cosmic wrath (a skill which eliminates everyone instantly) cost 25AP (someone correct me if I'm wrong). I suggest lowering the AP cost of this skill to 15/16 (bringing it more in line with CoTS).

OR ... make the skill more powerful. If you're paying 20AP and then draining 2AP of every other colour for a skill then it should really be one of the most powerful moves in the game.

Who? Hulk - Recently it has been suggested that hulk gets a change so I'm adding him in here as well. His red would be far more popular and useful if you simply make it destroy a diagonal line of tiles across the board which does not damage but does collect AP. Hulk fixed.

That's all I've got but if anyone else has anything to add - feel free.

Malcrof

Psylocke - With 2* chars like torch doing more damage for 8 ap.. she could definitely use a damage bump on black and red, put the damage at 2k or so, and she is viable for daily use!

Sentry, 1/4 the team self damage, and he is a monster.

Doc Oc - add an active portion to his passive, so if against a team that has no tile makers, then for 10ap, he can select any 2 black tiles and make attacks.

3BE, allow his purple to target any colored tile, so still useful if against non-special tile makers.

ArcanaMoon

Sentry, 1/4 the team self damage, and he is a monster.

(at least for me) is a calculated risk, you usually want to focus on using one of his abilitys, most of the time, thats what you need.

it NEED to damage the enemy team if there are enough green in the board, not only your team, it simply make sense how it works right now

need a second effect, one if you allready have a trap, i like the skill, the biggest attack title in the game, but is just does not make the cut, it need a little more, a small extra.

Now, what about nerfing some characters?

passive is plain op, be able to fully negate normal attacks because he is in the team is plain stupid, it should have a trigger to set up that defense tittle, if he is attacked or something, because that passive is just stupid

PuceMoose

These threads are always fun. ^.^
I would like to see some love for The Punisher, as he was my first-maxed three star and thus holds a special place in my heart.

Top-to-bottom changes, just for fun:
Molotov Cocktail - Black 7
The Punisher lobs a bottle of liquid mayhem. Damages the enemy team for 82 and converts a chosen basic Red tile to a Red 3-turn Countdown tile that deals 82 damage to the enemy team when it resolves. If this countdown tile is destroyed, The Punisher becomes enraged that his plan has been foiled; one basic black tile is converted to a strength 40 attack tile.
Level 2: Increases team damage to 114
Level 3: Increases team damage to 160. Strength 60 attack tile.
Level 4: Increases team damage to 180.
Level 5: Reduces Countdown to 2. Strength 80 attack tile.
Max Level: 1100 damage, Strength 460 attack tile.

If your countdown gets matched away, you're (almost) guaranteed at least one attack tile. If it's not, you basically get to deal minor team damage every 2/3 turns. 40% damage boost over standard Molotov damage.

Judgement - Green 8
The Punisher weighs his options, then unloads his arsenal in a pinpoint strike. Destroys a selected 2x2 group of tiles, doing damage but not generating AP. If any non-basic tiles are destroyed in the initial targeting, The Punisher pulls back to gather intel, ending the turn. If only basic tiles are destroyed, converts a basic color tile to a strength 16 strike tile.
Level 2: Increases Strike tile strength to 20.
Level 3: Creates 2 Strike tiles.
Level 4: Increases Strike tile strength to 24.
Level 5: Creates 3 Strike tiles.
Max Level: Increases Strike tile strength to 170.

Limited, targeted enemy tile control with turn-ending drawback (since targeted board control is so costly - look at Hex Bolt!), or strike tiles - your choice. 40% boost to strike tile damage.

Retribution - Red 8
The Punisher draws his sidearm and finishes what he started. Damages the target for 118. If they are below 20% of their max health, he downs them. If the target is not downed, The Punisher becomes enraged - converts a basic color tile to a strength 20 strike tile.
Level 2: Increases base damage to 177.
Level 3: Downs target if their health is below 30% of max. (or Max 1304). Strength 40 strike tile.
Level 4: Increases base damage to 236.
Level 5: Downs target if their health is below 40% of max. Strength 60 strike tile.
Max Level: 1482 damage, strength 240 strike tile.

Kill, or get a reasonably hefty strike tile? Strategy! Player agency!

elwhiteninja

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=34801

there is a topic for this in the suggestions sub-forum head over there and add your voice

Blahahah

Hulk seems fine to me, maybe make green scale a little better would be my only personal suggestion. Otherwise he is as his character should be... Not just some mindless brute, but beneath it one of the brightest minds Marvel has to offer. You could just slam about, clapping and throwing around smashes while counting on your anger to fuel your rage... But as is seen in most of Hulk's battles, brute strength often isn't enough. Its not about using your anger, its about controlling it.

Also Doc Oct seems fine too because he is a character you pick specifically to beat a certain team. He isn't made to be an all-rounder. Not every character should be.
If your enemy is using a non-tile generating team and you use Doc Oct, you're doing something exceptionally wrong.
If your enemy is using a tile generating team and you use Doc Oct, you're doing something exceptionally right.
I personally like that aspect to him. If I see a mohawk or a falcon, even a patch or a daken... I know I can run to the Doctor and he'll prescribe some pain.

Characters I would redesign...
Quicksilver. Probably should be a bit faster than he is. His black ability is amazing and I actually think its the perfect fit for him, but the other two... The fastest mortal man in the marvel universe shouldn;'t have to wait 3 turns to trigger a move called "supersonic".

Psylocke. She is a psychic capable of ripping her team out of the timeline to prevent their deaths. I don't really get that powerful psychic vibe when I see her poking at me for 300 damage, slapping me with a wet noodle, or trying to yell at me but taking 3 turns to do it.

Iron Man. The man designs suits and overcame alcoholism, you'd think he would be smart enough to not drain the power so much. It should be like Mystique where you can level up the skill to remove the bonus drains, or at the very least make the abilities worthwhile. 4k for a 25 cost ability and 3k to the whole team for a 31 cost while providing a meager stun... Laughable. Cyclops can do 5k-8k and only has to sometimes tank a stun for what... 13 black?

Daredevil. The guy has such a rich history and lore, and yet his abilities... Ambush, yeah fine whatever. Billy Club is an interesting ability but the fact that it doesn't do damage despite slamming into someone hard enough to stun them for 2 turns is a bit of a bother. Radar sense is just ugh. I just think it could be done better.

cyineedsn

Blahahah wrote:

Daredevil. The guy has such a rich history and lore, and yet his abilities... Ambush, yeah fine whatever. Billy Club is an interesting ability but the fact that it doesn't do damage despite slamming into someone hard enough to stun them for 2 turns is a bit of a bother. Radar sense is just ugh. I just think it could be done better.

I've complained a million times about how an ability called Radar Sense cannot sense trap tiles...

20three

That's too much effort, it's easier to give these characters idiotic comic book covers instead...

OneLastGambit

OJSP wrote:

I'd like to provide a counter argument, one that has been mentioned before by other people in the past.

It is times like this, that i wish we stop talking about balancing more 3* characters..

I appreciate we want the characters to be better, so we can use them more often or even consider rostering them.

However, some of the characters mentioned in this thread would be our opponent in Prodigal Sun. Let's think about facing level 250 of your versions (or any over levelled value your scaling have).

What about facing them in the Simulator (Story mode, not SHIELD Simulator), the Gauntlet or any other Story mode for that matter?

As a balance, we need these worse characters to exist as they are now, so we can beat them when they become our opponent. Most of them would be paired with goons or have AP acceleration team-ups. Their nodes could be health packs sinks now even without any changes.

If they are going to balance these characters, they have to be really careful about not making them too powerful, otherwise we'll have another situation similar to X-Force.

I understand that but I'd still like to have characters which are balanced. Why give a character 3 abilities one of which is close to useless? It's just poor design. I'm not too bothered about when AI uses them because unless the character is very simple (like Juggs, Daken) then they can't use them properly anyway.

EDIT: IM40 in particular is by far the most broken character in the game, 2 abilities which nobody uses and another which is not as good as Hood or Mystique? I'm surprised anybody has ever rostered him. The only reason I did was it was a 'lucky' pull from the Taco vault on a week when I needed him to earn CP from DDQ. I'd love to keep him but not while he is simply wasting a roster slot.

bobbyfish

I actually find IM40 paired with cap particularly useful in board control during goon fights. Not that I'm gonna pump any more ISO into him, but the blue/red generation is handy and at lvl120 he can pack a punch to finish the match as well.

GiantKiller2p

Character balance is this game's major failing. Balance has been an issue since I started playing nearly 2 years ago.

I agree wholeheartedly that more time and effort needs to go into balancing the characters. I recognize that there's only so much "time and effort" to go around, but the solution is quite simple: stop flooding the game with new characters, and spend some of that time and effort balancing the characters you've already released.

And, when you do tune characters, be it up or down in power level, do it in small increments and study the results, then make more small tweaks as needed. This way you avoid making characters overpowered (like the first xforce wolverine change) or completely worthless (like the sentry change).

IM40, Sentry, Invis.Woman, Psylocke, Bagman, Yelena, and Quicksilver all need immediate attention. These characters suffer from obvious and easily correctable flaws:

IM40: Reduce AP costs across the board, remove drawbacks altogether.
Sentry: Significantly reduce team/self damage with more covers.
Invis.Woman: Reduce AP cost of green, explode 4 locked tiles.
Psylocke: Increase damage on red and black, reduce countdown on blue.
Bagman: Copy 1* spiderman's kit with improved damage per ap on red.
Yelena: Significantly reduce AP costs.
Quicksilver: Reduce AP cost on green -or- make it produce 2 crit tiles.

I'd be more than willing, in fact I'd be thrilled, to go without new characters for a month or two so these issues could be addressed.

-GK

kalex716

Hulk is interesting.

I would still consider him as a highly underrated hero, and in the top 15 or so of useful 3 stars to have because of the dynamics on anger tiles, and the cascades that happen thereafter...

So many times there will be unique PVE events/circumstances that you can count on eating damage, and if you leverage hulk in those conditions you can often regain SOOOO much value off the hit to turn the game in your favor substantially.

Some of my favorite moments in MPQ history involve hulk cascades that went absolutely bonkers.

OneLastGambit

kalex716 wrote:

Hulk is interesting.

I would still consider him as a highly underrated hero, and in the top 15 or so of useful 3 stars to have because of the dynamics on anger tiles, and the cascades that happen thereafter...

So many times there will be unique PVE events/circumstances that you can count on eating damage, and if you leverage hulk in those conditions you can often regain SOOOO much value off the hit to turn the game in your favor substantially.

Some of my favorite moments in MPQ history involve hulk cascades that went absolutely bonkers.

I like hulk too but there is no denying that he is a 3* character with only two powers. The red is actually really good if you can clear the green off the board.. however it's hard to clear green when his third power floods the board with it all the time making his red a redundant power that nobody wants to use.

Unknown

What the. Why would anyone want less from a character and not more? Nerfing should be thrown out of everyone's thoughts. Just make everyone overpowered in their own ways and boom. I tire of those who can't handle getting rekt here and there.

OneLastGambit

BlackBoltRocks wrote:

I'll focus on the 2* and 3* I've intentionally not rostered

2* Cap - he scales horrendously. I mean, 2* Thor still does reasonable damage, especially when buffed and you don't have a max level or optimum Lazythor. 2* Cap should be the same in relation to 3* Cap. Maybe give his Peacemaker a weak protect tile as well.
2* Hawkeye - countdowns, countdowns everywhere. Give him a skill that can destroy a targeted tile or row, like Classiclops
2* Bagman - erm...

3* She-Hulk - hmm I'm not sold on either her blue or green. Perhaps give her a skill that reflects on her lawyering? Something like creating attack and/or strike tiles to chip away at the opponent's defense
3* Daredevil - give him a skill that can target any and all invisible tiles, like IW/PX and caltrops
3* Sentry - i honestly feel this guy should be 5*, level with Surfer and Phoenix. Give him skills to match. Or even something to turn him into The Void
3* Ragnarok - give him back his original green and red abilities, and make his blue similar to Thorrina's Power Surge (ie stun)

Good ideas. Especially like your void idea, perhaps they could do something similar to OML whereby when a certain amount of AP in black is achieved he becomes the void and his moveset changes.

Unknown

20three wrote:

That's too much effort, it's easier to give these characters idiotic comic book covers instead...

Well stated. I.E. it's easier to make new characters, change graphics, covers, or press out new 12 star characters than it is to address real issues.

BlackBoltRocks wrote:

I'll focus on the 2* and 3* I've intentionally not rostered

2* Bagman - erm...
3* She-Hulk - hmm I'm not sold on either her blue or green. Perhaps give her a skill that reflects on her lawyering? Something like creating attack and/or strike tiles to chip away at the opponent's defense
3* Daredevil - give him a skill that can target any and all invisible tiles, like IW/PX and caltrops
3* Sentry - i honestly feel this guy should be 5*, level with Surfer and Phoenix. Give him skills to match. Or even something to turn him into The Void
3* Ragnarok - give him back his original green and red abilities, and make his blue similar to Thorrina's Power Surge (ie stun)

2*Bagman is a turd, period.
3*She-hulk came about during what I call the dark ages of characters ( beast, doc oc, colossus ). She's already been changed once, and her power which robs AP is arguably well powered and maybe even overpowered. However, she is only good as a third wheel.
3*Daredevil. I chalk him up to characters like the hood. They can be excessively annoying as a 3rd wheel if things go properly. He's inherently a defensive character so I've only ever focused on him in a limited manner, only after getting a bunch of free covers. He's the 3 star Nick Fury.
3*Sentry. If you didn't know, he used to be one of the baddest characters around, but was nerfed into a decent character with great hair. It's not like them to admit a mistake and modify a character they just modified.
3*Ragnarok. Arguably their biggest fail in recent memory to me. Before his change, ragnarok was useful as a 2 power guy whose powers required low AP and he came in handy alot, in addition to being fairly annoying to fight. As we recall, they modified doc doom, and loki, keeping the general integrity of their original powers, then adding a new one. This worked well. But they totally reinvented ragnarok. I dumped my formerly 140 ragnarok in fact. Instead of adding on to what he was, they reinvented him, making him as a team member, marginal, yet as an opponent, still totally annoying. Your suggestion is exactly what should have happened.

Others?

Iron Man 40. He's from the stone age of the game, and it really shows. Take down the AP needed to use his powers, even if you need to dilute them. In his best form he is useful as an AP mining 3rd wheel, which is not cool.

Hulk. IMO hulk 3 star is fine. I have a fully loaded 5-3-5 hulk. His smash is only OK, but his thunderous clap is great, and his passive black power can easily prove to be a showstopper.

Psylocke. I have a 166 psylocke, and she's decent in my view. Her black power is cheap, her red is decently cheap. He blue is OK, but not a priority. I maxed her out since I figured she'd be focused on by d3 since she'll be due in a movie soon, therefore pushed by marvel.

Punisher. Poor frank. He's an original character who isn't currently being pushed in movies or comics, so players should avoid focusing on him.

Honestly if you have the means ( either by luck, skill, alliance, or money ), you're best off upgrading the panoply of new characters offered by D3, since they almost always feature the characters marvel intends to push. As a guy with 20, 3 star characters at 166, I can tell you, the likes of luke cage, kamala kahn, cyclops, iron fist, captain marvel, deadpool - the newer characters, generally offer an advantage in upgrading than the many other older 3 stars. I have them and many others upgraded and I can tell you they are used more, and were easier to upgrade ( covers ) than the older ones.

This brings us to the apparently exploding 4 star pantheon and beyond. Point blank.. focus on any new character. Elektra is marginal. Invisible woman is.. I don't even know.. She's ****. Nick Fury is OK. Like a 4 star daredevil. XFW.. he's decent, but post nerf he's less good, and arguably deserves more health. Star Lord is ****. Charles Xavier can be annoying if upgraded otherwise, no. Antman? OK. Carnage? Good, but weird. Red Hulk? Nasty. Jean Grey? Nasty. X-23? Nasty. Kingpin? Nasty. Thorette? Even post nerf, NASTY given her health. Hulkbuster? In upgraded form, absolutely nasty. I'll ignore the new 5 star characters and say that it would be good for d3 to say what their goals are for the game longterm. Average dudes with average 3 star teams are growing sick of getting tuned by teams with loaded 4 and 5 star characters, not to mention "needing" these characters for PVE and PVP events is ridiculous ( as is having a 1 cover 4 star character being leveled at 100 with 1 power in a pvp, while someone who doesn't have the character has a level 100 with all 3 powers. Come on.

Unknown

This game is a lot like Ultimate Marvel Vs Capcom 3 (UMvC3). Its easy to balance something like Street Fighter - 1v1, but something that is 3v3 creates a whole SLEW of other problems that makes 'balancing' a super time consuming task. Every new character has to be vetted against every existing character and combination.

For instance - SWitch. By herself? She's annoying, a self-powered battery, but mix in mediocre health, horrible luck on her part, and she would be mincemeat for a large portion of the cast. Take Ironfist, his purple can hit hard, but he has mediocre health, and that's the only thing he does that does any heavy dmg - and he has to get 12 black AP before he can reap the rewards of his purple. Take XFW, by himself he is slow to kill with a now **** green, a middling heal (high HP, long countdown), and one good attack that requires a decent amount of black and certain colors on the board.

Now put them together...board shake-up, feed yourself black, if the colors you want aren't on the board, IF is fed so many purples that he can KO 4* in like 3 cast.

Are ANY of those three characters stupidly strong by themselves? Not really. But together, the various elements can steam roll.

There are simply too many variables in general to make balancing such a large roster some quick and easy thing to do. One small adjustment here can create a HUGE shift somewhere else. I'm NOT saying the game shouldn't be balanced better, but in terms of priorities
1. Grow the 4* options
2. Grow access to 4*
3. Worry about 3* stuff

It's just not important to the overall game. The top of the top needs to be looked at, you want at least 25% of the available characters to be usable - and boost fixes that, and I wouldn't be upset with adjustments for the bottom - the aforementioned IM40 for instance, when your best build is 5/5/1 - you do need adjustments, but marinate on it.

What would happen if IM40s battery abilities grew to cover his AP cost? He'd become a battery for someone else. XFDP's biggest issue, IMO is the difficulty of getting 14 red. IM40 with a usable blue, and an improved yellow, and his already high health? IT would be ridiculous.

The devs know where they are, its evident as the newer the character (outside of a couple outliers) are typically better than the characters that came before them (Cage/IF/SWitch/Blade/Cyclops/KK).
- Unreall

TLCstormz

Blahahah wrote:

Psylocke. She is a psychic capable of ripping her team out of the timeline to prevent their deaths.

.............wut?

Blahahah

TLCstormz wrote:

Blahahah wrote:

Psylocke. She is a psychic capable of ripping her team out of the timeline to prevent their deaths.

.............wut?

At one point, Psylocke forsees the death of the X-men and sends them through the Siege Perilous. Its a very long story, Savage lands are a hell of a place.
Its all explained later to have forced a seperate timeline in which the x-men didn't die, existing alongside the reality in which they did.

TLCstormz

My point was that she did not / is not "a psychic so powerful that she can rip her teammates out of a timeline."

Blahahah

TLCstormz wrote:

My point was that she did not / is not "a psychic so powerful that she can rip her teammates out of a timeline."

When did I say she was so powerful that she could do all of that?
I said she was capable of doing so, which she is and has done. Not once did I attribute it to her psychic powers specifically.

If I had said "This is a baseball player who can throw a great fastball and is capable of batting homeruns", it would be equivaent to you saying "his ball throwing has nothing to do with his batting ability."

Which, I mean you ARE right but no one was saying it did.