Matchmaking needs a tune up

elwhiteninja

When I look at match making it is extremely lopsided especially with the way it does it based on average level of your top 5. For the cover girl event I am facing almost exclusively four star 350-270 rosters. I have 4 four star characters in usable range and sadly a silver surfer that is wrecking the curve. Giving me an average lvl of 206. I know the new 5 stars are already a hot button issue when it comes to matchmaking but I find it a bit ridiculous that I am considered in the same league as people who have 250 ish 4 star covers and I might have 60. I work really hard to make it to 1000 to earn that next cover but it's extremely frustrating and grindy to have to wade through these opponents that are way out of my league.

A few solutions that make sense to me:

-Match make based on number of covers owned in each category plus average top lvl.
-Give us something akin to leagues. Cause these hardcore alliances are screwing the bell curve. If you already have all the rewards possible and all the four stars you are just taking from the people who really want to earn em.
-Give 2 point scales 1 for progression that never goes down and one for rank that fluctuates.
-make something similar to clash of clans where you can't be attacked for x number of minutes while active or maybe winning a round provides a 5 minute shield.
-As much as I hate to say it maybe a variation of an elo system

It is very much anti-fun to get that screen at the end of a fight that says you have been attacked and then see that you have lost more than you won. I get it 1000 people per block are all pushing to be top. And it should be an accomplishment to be #1 but some people don't want to be number one they just want to move forward. Personally I don't shield after getting 1k because I don't need the three stars someone else might need. And I think we can all agree that there is a different group in this game that wants bragging rights more than anything, I'm talking to you people who get 1400+ in pvp.

Defense is a joke as it is. We have no way to impact it and you know when you win it's probably because of favorable cascades.

I guess what I am saying is either the playing field needs to be more lvl or the penalty of losing on def (especially when active) needs to be negated. As it stands many times it is like driving uphill in neutral. And the crazies that get these huge scores need to be put in thier own events so they can see who really is number 1, I hope to enter one day

EDIT: take today for example I was 970 in cover squirrel did an attack for 38 and during the short match i lost 133 points. During the next match trying to get to 900 lost 200. NOT FUN

Unknown

All great suggestions, and I'll just keep saying it, constructive criticism is not complaining, whining, or ranting. It just isn't. Not that that usually stops the trolls, but it's the forum we currently have, so there's that. It's a bit frustrating to see suggestions repeatedly caveated with, "I'm not trying to complain," but I get it.

Anyhoo, on topic, I especially like your suggestions for cover/level-based matchmaking, possibly leagues, shields during fights, and for God's sake, not tying progression to rank. I mean, I would have thought that last one to be common sense. Not sure how one can go backwards with regard to progression…

As someone among what I would guess to be many on this forum alone, I was recently bit pretty hard by the "losing more than you win during a fight" phenomenon, I agree wholeheartedly. On the tail of what ended up being a pretty deflating "anniversary celebration," I managed to claw my way to 804 and a progression card for the first time ever (I actually got the victory screen showing 804 points, but no reward screen, because, well, you know), only to discover that I never in fact made it because I got hit THREE times while fighting, and by players I stood absolutely ZERO chance of retaliating against. If players far more powerful want to beat up on me for rank, awesome, I'm a fairly easy target. But seriously, let me at least keep the points I earned toward progression.

It does often feel like "driving uphill in neutral…" It feels like every time I find a way around some of the more onerous parts of MPQ (a game I also love at its core), it finds some new way to steal the joy of actually playing the game.

I honestly couldn't care less about anything above T25, T50, or even usually T100, and it would be awesome to not be one of the targets for folks 100+ hero levels above me trying to get there…

DBC

squirrel1120

The biggest issue with most of the suggestions is that making changes that making keeping points easier is going to help the top even more. They've already got the rocket bike that can speed through matches in 2-3 minutes, while I feel like I'm trying to pedal on my rusty old bike to catch up. Even using the buffed 3*, most of my matches are 6-8 minutes if they team doesn't have good synergy, which is about as long as you ever want to be out on a hop. Add a timer that you can only ever be hit once in 5 minutes? Those top end players shield hops would just be a run as far as they could on their healthpacks each time instead of doing 2-3 matches, because they could easily beat matches faster than they would get hit. Points are already pretty inflated as it is.

Tiers sound great on paper until I realize I'd still be lumped into a 4* bracket if such a thing existed. xf and fury are covered and leveled, finally drew an OML, and carnage was leveled to his soft cap of 250 hoping he'd be a bit of a deterrent when floating (he isn't, not anymore... ppl will hit me for 20 when he's out just like he's not even there). Unfortunately none of these 4* help very much at all unless its their buffed week, which is intermittent at best.

Without a complete overhaul on how pvp works, its pretty much always going to be an uphill fight for everyone except those at the top. I've also just gotten used to the fact that the goal post is always going to be moved away as I approach the finish line, and I need to take at least one season a bit more casually, because my frustration level with fighting the 4* tier constantly with mainly 3* has really burned out my want to be forced to shield hop to 1k even for covers I dont need due to the alliance structure.

elwhiteninja

squirrel1120 wrote:

because my frustration level with fighting the 4* tier constantly with mainly 3* has really burned out my want to be forced to shield hop to 1k even for covers I dont need due to the alliance structure.

Well that is true and a big problem for the game. When new 3 stars were coming out there was something to work for for PVP now if you dont get top 2 or 1000+ points there is nothing to do but get some ISO for selling covers. I understand the need for 3 stars in PVP for newer people. But the old dogs are getting board. In my alliance we have 5 people who have completed their 3 star rosters and most who are almost done. All the ones that are finished are getting board and talking about quitting. It is too difficult to move forward because of the way match making works. It is not winning fights so much as being paired with a very lopsided block and losing hundreds of points on defense.

elwhiteninja

Drummerboycroy wrote:

I got hit THREE times while fighting, and by players I stood absolutely ZERO chance of retaliating against. If players far more powerful want to beat up on me for rank,

Retaliation is typically a joke anyways. You lose 50-60 points and sometimes can earn 1-25 back.

Unknown

Need real info on who is in the pool. The ones you want to hit aren't going to have a point level preferred. If they do, they won't be visible because they hid behind a shield.

WelcomeDeath

I get the frustration, I've been there. I only just recently mastered the art of 1k, but it's doable. I have no characters at all above 166 and in today's hop I beat 2 fistbusters, a Jeanbuster and a Sexpool, using just Lcap, SG and Switch. Keep at it, you'll get there. Big key is having multiple 166 characters so you can, at least sometimes, run 240/290/240 teams, makes it much easier. It isn't easy, it's not supposed to be...that's why it's top rewards.

elwhiteninja

Welcome Death wrote:

I get the frustration, I've been there. I only just recently mastered the art of 1k, but it's doable. I have no characters at all above 166 and in today's hop I beat 2 fistbusters, a Jeanbuster and a Sexpool, using just Lcap, SG and Switch. Keep at it, you'll get there. Big key is having multiple 166 characters so you can, at least sometimes, run 240/290/240 teams, makes it much easier. It isn't easy, it's not supposed to be...that's why it's top rewards.

But its not the matches you initiate that are the difficult part. It's the passive defense against people who have no business being in the same bracket that is the issue. Fist buster is hard but not impossible.

Unknown

elwhiteninja wrote:

Welcome Death wrote:

I get the frustration, I've been there. I only just recently mastered the art of 1k, but it's doable. I have no characters at all above 166 and in today's hop I beat 2 fistbusters, a Jeanbuster and a Sexpool, using just Lcap, SG and Switch. Keep at it, you'll get there. Big key is having multiple 166 characters so you can, at least sometimes, run 240/290/240 teams, makes it much easier. It isn't easy, it's not supposed to be...that's why it's top rewards.

But its not the matches you initiate that are the difficult part. It's the passive defense against people who have no business being in the same bracket that is the issue. Fist buster is hard but not impossible.

As much as I'd like segregation of levels, there isn't enough participation to get that done.

WelcomeDeath

elwhiteninja wrote:

Welcome Death wrote:

I get the frustration, I've been there. I only just recently mastered the art of 1k, but it's doable. I have no characters at all above 166 and in today's hop I beat 2 fistbusters, a Jeanbuster and a Sexpool, using just Lcap, SG and Switch. Keep at it, you'll get there. Big key is having multiple 166 characters so you can, at least sometimes, run 240/290/240 teams, makes it much easier. It isn't easy, it's not supposed to be...that's why it's top rewards.

But its not the matches you initiate that are the difficult part. It's the passive defense against people who have no business being in the same bracket that is the issue. Fist buster is hard but not impossible.

OK...a couple of things. First, have you ever skipped a match worth good progression points to a team because it was too low level for you? Has anybody? MMR isn't perfect, nothing is, but I don't think it is as bad as some people make it to be. Does anyone that's been playing a while still see 20/60/20 teams anymore? If you do, I want in your bracket every time. Yes, there are people higher rank than you because MMR allows for a range of levels around the level of your highest characters (boosts included). Also, it filters out scores much much higher than yours as well as much much lower, so when you're approaching 1000, the high level players near you can see you. You can beat them, they should have a chance to beat you. People with more developed rosters have a better chance, yes, but they've most likely been playing longer, playing more and spending more money...just like the guy that's worked somewhere for a long time makes more money than newer people that work just as hard.
In the end, your roster determines where you can place in progression, the high end rewards are for people with full rosters (I can't make anywhere near 1.3k) and it goes down from there. If you're all covered for 3*, level up some more, when you're fielding max teams it's easier to hit 1k (though not necessary, level 140 buffed gets you 200, that's enough).

elwhiteninja

Welcome Death wrote:

elwhiteninja wrote:

Welcome Death wrote:

I get the frustration, I've been there. I only just recently mastered the art of 1k, but it's doable. I have no characters at all above 166 and in today's hop I beat 2 fistbusters, a Jeanbuster and a Sexpool, using just Lcap, SG and Switch. Keep at it, you'll get there. Big key is having multiple 166 characters so you can, at least sometimes, run 240/290/240 teams, makes it much easier. It isn't easy, it's not supposed to be...that's why it's top rewards.

But its not the matches you initiate that are the difficult part. It's the passive defense against people who have no business being in the same bracket that is the issue. Fist buster is hard but not impossible.

OK...a couple of things. First, have you ever skipped a match worth good progression points to a team because it was too low level for you? Has anybody? MMR isn't perfect, nothing is, but I don't think it is as bad as some people make it to be. Does anyone that's been playing a while still see 20/60/20 teams anymore? If you do, I want in your bracket every time. Yes, there are people higher rank than you because MMR allows for a range of levels around the level of your highest characters (boosts included). Also, it filters out scores much much higher than yours as well as much much lower, so when you're approaching 1000, the high level players near you can see you. You can beat them, they should have a chance to beat you. People with more developed rosters have a better chance, yes, but they've most likely been playing longer, playing more and spending more money...just like the guy that's worked somewhere for a long time makes more money than newer people that work just as hard.
In the end, your roster determines where you can place in progression, the high end rewards are for people with full rosters (I can't make anywhere near 1.3k) and it goes down from there. If you're all covered for 3*, level up some more, when you're fielding max teams it's easier to hit 1k (though not necessary, level 140 buffed gets you 200, that's enough).

I get what you are saying and if you read my posts you will see that I have every 3 star (although i recently sold a few as they are not worth roster slots). Sure they are not all maxed cause I save my for the good ones. I also have useable and good four stars but the people who already have every earn-able reward in a pvp (other than the leg token) are ruining the curve. I am sure it is boring for them too grinding to 1300 just for a chance at a five star. The way that matchmaking is right now is putting everyone in limbo. Pretty much every player who has been here longer than 1 year no longer cares about three star rewards (with the exception of a few random covers I'm on day 698 and still need a blue hood) so it is a mad scramble to get to 1000 then unless they are in a top 100 alliance they just open themselves up for attack and let the vultures come as they are done. It is counter intuitive to make progression and rank the same score. They could even raise the progression scores up higher if they wanted (although then we could actually see how much we are losing each round)

I can definitely had have definitely gotten to 1000 and normally do at least every other pvp but it is very frustrating and tedious after about 800 points, and the design flaw of being able to end a fight in a victory having lost points is silly. We have an active and bright community that should be able to brainstorm a fair solution that does not feel so punishing to win

jackstar0

I could get behind progression points being separated from event points.

I also think this would encourage more PvP participation.

elwhiteninja

jackstar0 wrote:

I could get behind progression points being separated from event points.

I also think this would encourage more PvP participation.

I think this would alleviate a great deal of the frustration behind pvp. I personally could care less about my rank other than for the but the big thing for me is the progression rewards

HxiiiK

Maybe for pvp, make progression points not drop would be fine
If, say, I am 100 points away from that sweet 1k reward and I forget to shield, then I get hit for -200 points, so on the ranking I am now 700 points, but perhaps on progression I still only need 100 more points to the 1k reward
What I'm saying it make the progression cumulative rather than parallel to the point ranking
Not sure if I got it in a way that is understandable, nor do I know how easy it might be to implement, but something to think about? People who fight for rank will go on as usual, and people going for progression won't be so frustrated when they get hit, they can just go ahead and play as usual

WelcomeDeath

Ok...but that means that all rewards would be available to everyone. There already IS a section of the game that you can grind and get a 4*, it's called pve. If they made pvp progression rewards with no reset, you could literally get a 4* with an hour and a half of play every 3 days. This is never going to happen unless someone already has a developed roster. The devs aren't interested in someone having the ability to build a 4* roster with 1* teams (remember, the MMR pits low level against low level, so someone with a roster 3 days in could net 1000 points in matches against low level teams with this model). I do think there should be more ways to get 4* the way they're flooding the game, I don't think this is the solution.

elwhiteninja

Welcome Death wrote:

Ok...but that means that all rewards would be available to everyone. There already IS a section of the game that you can grind and get a 4*, it's called pve. If they made pvp progression rewards with no reset, you could literally get a 4* with an hour and a half of play every 3 days. This is never going to happen unless someone already has a developed roster. The devs aren't interested in someone having the ability to build a 4* roster with 1* teams (remember, the MMR pits low level against low level, so someone with a roster 3 days in could net 1000 points in matches against low level teams with this model). I do think there should be more ways to get 4* the way they're flooding the game, I don't think this is the solution.

Well it is true that it would be easier it would be far from a sure thing. As you go up in points you face harder and harder opponents someone using 1 stars is not going to be able to win over and over against a maxed three star team. And as you say it may not be the solution or they could make it much higher in points what I want to do is take some of the frustration from PVP. As it stands there are three major problems from my viewpoint:

- Passive defense: necessary due to the way the game is designed but we are punished for the AI failing in def. We can help by using a team that is good on def but that is it. Boosts are going to win the day every-time with the exception of cascades. I see no solution for this and am very glad that I do not have to wait to play against a live person.

-Rank rewards: We have not had a new three star since May and d3 has said they do not plan on releasing new ones, so now there is no reason to fight for rank other than for top alliances, the top 2 position (usually 1500+ points), the small hp gain if you can do it without shielding.
I understand the reason 3 stars are offered as rewards as there needs to be something to help people transition from two star to three star. This is the reason I suggested something akin to leagues as they would give prizes that would be relevant its is obvious that our hidden ratings have a number and they could make it so that that number would have to be >x in order to join.

-The hyper-competitive: I get it this is Player VS. Player the whole point is to win. In reality the goal should not be to get X number of points it should be to be #1 however you are completing with 1000 other people and real life demands so it is typically better to set realistic goals. I personally aim for top 100 and 1000+ points. As I type this I can see 5 players in my bracket that are 1400+ points with 6 hours to go there is no reason to get that many points other than to be #1 and good for them however most rounds (this one doesn't count cause Redhulk is new) the people who win first do not need the #1 reward they are simply taking it from the person below them. I don't want them to stop being competitive but there should be a better way to do it so that everyone feels like they did good things rather than. "I worked super hard got like 30 points from the goal and then got attacked 7 times during a match and am now 300 points from my goal."

If you don't like the idea of permanent progression rewards perhaps there should be a bank method or what have you so that when you reach a certain point your rank can't drop below X points or make progression shields for instance:
500 points: 25 HP (1 hour shield)
750 Points: 500 ISO (1 hour shield)
900 Points: Recruit Token (3 hour shield)
1000 Points: four star (1 Hour Shield)
1300 Points: Leg Token (8 Hour Shield)

I am sure someone could figure out how to abuse this so the numbers would need to be adjusted but it would make playing much more interesting.

Crowl

Welcome Death wrote:

Ok...but that means that all rewards would be available to everyone. There already IS a section of the game that you can grind and get a 4*, it's called pve. If they made pvp progression rewards with no reset, you could literally get a 4* with an hour and a half of play every 3 days. This is never going to happen unless someone already has a developed roster. The devs aren't interested in someone having the ability to build a 4* roster with 1* teams (remember, the MMR pits low level against low level, so someone with a roster 3 days in could net 1000 points in matches against low level teams with this model). I do think there should be more ways to get 4* the way they're flooding the game, I don't think this is the solution.

If progression rewards were based on your cumulative total and excluded your losses they could easily adjust the point totals so that not everyone would be able to grind their way to the 4* cover without putting in a lot more time and if people do put in a lot more time then why shouldn't they get some of the rewards, they still wouldn't be getting placement rewards since those would still be impacted by losses.

Being rewarded for their own results and time rather than penalising them because the AI is inept on defence is one clear way of keeping people engaged with the game and would probably increase pvp participation more too since people with weaker rosters would see it was worthwhile to keep playing past the seed teams or first event token.

WelcomeDeath

Crowl wrote:

Welcome Death wrote:

Ok...but that means that all rewards would be available to everyone. There already IS a section of the game that you can grind and get a 4*, it's called pve. If they made pvp progression rewards with no reset, you could literally get a 4* with an hour and a half of play every 3 days. This is never going to happen unless someone already has a developed roster. The devs aren't interested in someone having the ability to build a 4* roster with 1* teams (remember, the MMR pits low level against low level, so someone with a roster 3 days in could net 1000 points in matches against low level teams with this model). I do think there should be more ways to get 4* the way they're flooding the game, I don't think this is the solution.

If progression rewards were based on your cumulative total and excluded your losses they could easily adjust the point totals so that not everyone would be able to grind their way to the 4* cover without putting in a lot more time and if people do put in a lot more time then why shouldn't they get some of the rewards, they still wouldn't be getting placement rewards since those would still be impacted by losses.

Being rewarded for their own results and time rather than penalising them because the AI is inept on defence is one clear way of keeping people engaged with the game and would probably increase pvp participation more too since people with weaker rosters would see it was worthwhile to keep playing past the seed teams or first event token.

I'm pretty sure this is an intentional game design, though. I'm less than a year in and I remember having a 1*,2* roster and a fledgling 3* roster. I remember finally getting to the point that I could hit 500, 700, 800 and more recently 1000. It's just the way the game progresses. I do think that maybe the 3* rewards could be pushed down a bit, especially because there are now brackets that 1000 pts will barely get you top 100, but I think the overall scoring / progression system makes sense. Build your roster, score more points. Pve is more of the training grounds where you can get 3* rewards and once you have one, ddq gives more. Not at a phenomenal pace but if you can rank decent in pvp or, more likely, pve, you can build up quicker. And, once you have a decent starting 3* roster, you can easily hit 800 pts in pvp to get more. I just made that transition 5 or so months ago. Of course people would like it if they could get all rewards right away, but then what's left? People would get bored with the game and leave which is not what the devs want. There are people on these forums constantly complaining (myself included, at times) but we still play because of the challenge.