Suggestion for changes to PVP AI

Unknown

Firstly apologies - I'm pretty new here and would be amazed if someone (indeed some ones) hadn't already suggested what I'm about to, but as I've missed those topics and am genuinely interested in what others think, (and the speculation as to likely reasons why this can't/won't happen), here goes.

Problem: We all know that for the most part AI teams in PVP don't play the way we would and can't be trusted to employ the same strategies we use when we're in control. This can, and I have a hunch often does, lead to teams that are fairly strong in the players' hands becoming relatively attractive targets for other players when controlled by the AI. It also means we face off against the same characters again and again, because they are proven the most effective in the hands of the AI.

Solution: Could the devs implement AI scripts for each character that players could set to make our AI controlled teams more formidable? I'm thinking of the type of scripts you see in RPGs like Dragon Age, Baldur's Gate and some of the Final Fantasy games. For example 'protect ally A', 'priority target colour B' 'if health reaches x, cast y' and also allow us to set our own priorities for abilities where colours are shared rather than leaving it to the current default system to determine who gets to use their ability.

I think it would actually add another layer of fun allowing the player to tinker and experiment with these scripts which could be freely changed depending on the particular team set up. I also think it would lead to more diversity in the teams we face off against in PVP.

I'm no programmer though, so have no idea as to the feasibility of this suggestion, but for me at least, I think it would really improve the game.

Infrared

Some players are against any change that could make matches harder for humans to win. They have a point, seeing how often people complain about the AI cheating. Not to mention the disastrously difficult Galactus 1.0, though that's really a separate issue since Galactus didn't actually make any moves. I still think there can be a place for it in the game if it was optional. There used to be a hard mode for some events, but "hard" simply meant the enemy levels were scaled higher and the AI was just as dumb. If there was an optional smart AI mode, with rewards that match the difficulty, that might be more well received by players.

The developers have always preferred to add new things using the existing system, rather than make changes to the system itself. It probably costs them a lot more in resources to change the system, with no guarantee that it will result in increased revenue. So despite overwhelming demand for an improved UI, we still have to swipe sideways to see the AP levels during a match.

I personally like the idea of players being able to program the AI for their defensive teams. It will add more variety to PVP for sure, and an added layer of strategy. More puzzles, less grinding. If the devs can figure out a good way to implement it, that will give them more game "content" generated by their players.

Lee T

You may find this blog post by a Demiurge dev about tweaking the AI interesting :

http://www.demiurgestudios.com/engineer ... -opponent/

Unknown

Lee T wrote:

You may find this blog post by a Demiurge dev about tweaking the AI interesting :

http://www.demiurgestudios.com/engineer ... -opponent/

Interesting read, thanks.

For me there's an aspect with AI in PVP beyond how it behaves generally, in so much as the max 13 of 15 cover limit means we get to build our characters in slightly different ways. Being then able to influence how those characters are played by the AI gives our individual build choices more meaning. Let's face it, in the three day cycle of a PVP event we only control our teams for a handful of hours. The rest of the time they're entirely in the hands of the AI.

simonsez

Puck wrote:

Could the devs implement AI scripts for each character that players could set to make our AI controlled teams more formidable?

And why does this help us? We get negligible points for defensive wins, so all you're doing is advocating more offensive losses, eg making it harder to score and making us use up health packs faster. How does any of that benefit the player? Are a lot of people complaining that PvP is too easy?

Unknown

simonsez wrote:

Puck wrote:

Could the devs implement AI scripts for each character that players could set to make our AI controlled teams more formidable?

And why does this help us? We get negligible points for defensive wins, so all you're doing is advocating more offensive losses, eg making it harder to score and making us use up health packs faster. How does any of that benefit the player? Are a lot of people complaining that PvP is too easy?

Negligible points for defensive wins, yes, but what about the massive losses suffered as you climb the ranks when your AI controlled team gets beaten?

simonsez

Puck wrote:

Negligible points for defensive wins, yes, but what about the massive losses suffered as you climb the ranks when your AI controlled team gets beaten?

What massive losses are these?? Everyone has an equilibrium score based on what formation they're leaving up. This isn't going to change what that score is. It'll just take you longer to get there because climbs will be way slower.

If you think this is somehow the solution to "I tried a 3 battle hop in the last 15 minutes with my 3* team, and lost 154 points", you're very mistaken.

Unknown

simonsez wrote:

Puck wrote:

Negligible points for defensive wins, yes, but what about the massive losses suffered as you climb the ranks when your AI controlled team gets beaten?

What massive losses are these?? Everyone has an equilibrium score based on what formation they're leaving up. This isn't going to change what that score is. It'll just take you longer to get there because climbs will be way slower.

If you think this is somehow the solution to "I tried a 3 battle hop in the last 15 minutes with my 3* team, and lost 154 points", you're very mistaken.

I seem to have upset you. Sorry about that. I was merely speculating on an idea that might make the game even more fun and, for me anyway, the idea remains interesting.

I'm day 716 BTW, so while new to the forum, I'm a pretty old hand as far as MPQ is concerned.

simonsez

Puck wrote:

I seem to have upset you. Sorry about that. I was merely speculating on an idea that might make the game even more fun and, for me anyway, the idea remains interesting.

I'm day 716 BTW, so while new to the forum, I'm a pretty old hand as far as MPQ is concerned.

Yeah, I totally get that you're just trying to shake things up in a good way, but yeah, floating bad ideas does upset me because I don't trust these nimrods not to go ahead and implement them. Unless and until they radically change the way events are scored, making battles more damaging and harder to win is very, very player-unfriendly.

Unknown

It's true, perhaps I haven't considered potential consequences to the offense side of PVP, but rather than try and consider all aspects myself I offer the idea up to discussion.

And you know, while the offense side may be made harder as a consequence, having an AI team better able to defend those hard won points as well as potentially more diverse teams to battle and an extra play mechanic adding depth to strategy, is still an intriguing idea.

ammenell

i cant think of a reason why the ai should be changed - from a devs point of view.

i really understand where you are going with this idea. the ai implementing character specific strategies would make for some fun matches, another level of variety and a new game experience in general.

but somewhere you have to draw a line.
how complex do you want the ai to be? right now a muscle or thug would drop a cd tile only to be matched by a teammate in the same turn.
obviously, this behaviour has to be addressed first. that and ignoring own favorable matches for match-4s in unuseable colors. or ignoring match-5s for match-4s.

this changes alone are no joke to implement - starting from the top left corner, every single tile not only has to be checked if it will be matched, but after every single move it also has to check if there is a possible match-5 in ANY of form (L, T, X) OR if there is a possible match-3/-4 which could cascade in a match-5

so you need a truckload of hours/devs to just increase the ais efficiency from its current state to "stop ignoring them match-5s"
and we are not even talking about strategies.
sure, characters should prioritize their own colors, perhaps even the teammates colors if he is stunned.
tile placement would also be a big deal to implement. and somewhere at that point starts the synergy with the teammembers.

quick example:
2* team of mags, storm, hawkeye.
every turn purple should be collected for mags to make match-5s for hawkeyes purple passive.
which color should be targeted if there are no purple matches?
which has priority if there are no blue matches either?
when does storm fire her blue?
where does mags place his red cd tile to a) prevent it from being matched and b) maximize ap generation?
and who knows how many questions like this have to be answered/implemented

now multiply that with the characters in question.
now multiply again because of countless synergy possibilities.

but from the devs pov, hours and devs are not limitless resources.
you have a game with a big playerbase, and you are constantly looking to implement new content to keep it that way or get new players - anything to keep the interest up. so if you have to choose (because budget), what would you rather do? new content or time- and money-consuming changes which will be a pain to test?
its not really a surprise that a higher difficulty means lvl 200 juggs + muscle. its cheap and efficient, it represents (kind of) a challenge even for higher rosters and that saved time/money can go into new content

Unknown

Good points and yeah, this is the real world so from a business point of view I understand the bottom line dictates all.

It's a shame however that new content is restricted exclusively to introducing new characters with seemingly little in the way of new and interesting ways to play with them.