Concerns about 3/4 star transition

Warbringa

Ok so this post is mainly for devs but I would like to get other players feedback. It is about my concern for what I see coming from the game. Here is a summary of where I am at in the game -

Rewards progression around day 280 or so. I have most 3* characters (only ones I don't have are Dr. Oct, Beast, Rags, and Vision- all by choice not worth roster slots imo), many of them mostly covered, several optimally a couple I am just waiting to get the optimal coverage for. I have 7 4* characters but only 16 covers between all of them (3 of those covers have come from standard token btw). I play DDQ every day and will go on stints from playing PvE to PvP etc, sometimes both at once. I play for around 2 hours or so every day is my guess. Seeing today what the new "legendary" token option in DDQ scares me. Here is why:

Right now I have most of my roster at 110 lvl with about 26 3* characters at this level and a bunch of iso stored up. I am just waiting for a few more covers on a handful of 3* to create a couple of optimal teams. I could usually easily place in top 50, and many times top 25 in PvE however with the rash of 4* being introduced I am lucky to reach top 100 anymore. Most of time my goal is to clear out nodes at least three times. The new Hulk event is worrisome because I have been in top 100 the whole time but it appears that there is no way I will reach 70000 for the legendary token unless I devote my life to the game with 2 days left. That is not going to happen. I understand inflating the needed points but I feel 70000 seems way to high for points given by the nodes. Perhaps since this is the first event there will be adjustments or perhaps the nodes will see quite a bit of point inflation in the last two days but it seems difficult that if someone is in the top 100 of an event that they should struggle to finish progression.

When I do PvP I usually finish in the top 25 however my score is never large enough to get any 4* tokens as I have never reached 1000. Several times I have finished top 5 and my scores are only in the 600-700 range. It will be more and more difficult to compete in PvP as players that have 4* rosters will begin to dominate. You may need to consider different PvP brackets based on rosters (2*/3*) and (4*/5*) etc. to keep it fair.

DDQ is my biggest worry about realistically providing a transition. DDQ originally was to help transition from 2* to 3* and it did that brilliantly. You could do the Big Enchilada with a 2* team and I still do in fact and can beat it first try 95% of time. The new event today had a Cyclops with 278 level and I could play him with my 4* Wolverine at 110 level (who if I spent ISO I could max out to lvl 131). There is no way I am even close to being able to complete this any time soon. I have been playing for quite a while and spent well over $100 (probably closer to $150) on this game and I have 16 4* covers. If you really want to make the 4* transition easier you need to make it closer to the original DDQ. Only someone who already has a highly covered 4* character has a decent chance at beating a lvl 278 4* character in a realistic number of attempts. This isn't transition but separation. Those already mostly covered will progress, those trying to transition can't come close. I think it should be player's 3* team vs. 4* computer myself as that would keep with the idea of original DDQ formula that worked.

There is always the chance you will make legendary tokens more available than they appear to be now, which could be a solution but I doubt you will since there are now 5* characters that will be available.

I believe you will need to fix this DDQ mechanism and since 4* are the new 3* as the saying goes on the forums, you will need to adjust rewards for PvE and PvP respectively to treat them so. Otherwise you will lose players like myself as I will not continue to grind for nearly a year to try and get enough 4* covers to continue to progress with the writing I currently see on the wall. Even if my 4* cover progression doubles the current rate, I will only get 32 covers (spread out over way more characters than there were in the past 9 months) over the next 9 months for example. If you lose new to mid level players over time, your game will die as established players will have hit critical mass where they don't have to spend as much because they can earn most of what they need due to their rosters (whales aside). New players will be daunted to continue to play unless you drastically speed up their progression as well. I hope you have other plans than currently shown.

Dayv

I was surprised by the level of the opponent as well. I had no problems, but my 4* Wolverine is maxed out. I'm definitely going to struggle when my 5/1/1 Carnage (level 156, capped) comes up to bat, and I'm sure my ten characters with less than 6 covers each are just out of the running.

I was surprised that they disallowed Team-Ups, but I guess they didn't want everyone converting Deadpool points into Legendary tokens.

DaveR4470

Well stated.

A couple of things to add:

1) What's most striking with MPQ right now is the vast, vast, VAST difference in terms of ease/time/commitment between the 2*-3* transition and the 3*-4* transition.

2*-3* is somewhat difficult at first, but as time goes by and the DDQ successes add up, it becomes significantly easier -- and eventually trivial -- to hit your DDQ nodes every day and obtain good covers with reasonable placements in PvE or PvP events.

3*-4* requires heavy, heavy grinding or serious expenditure on HP to fund constant shielding, and as time goes by, the continuing rich-get-richer incentives (e.g. SuperDDQ and high-tier alliance rewards) makes the situation worse and worse.

So it's like you're golfing, and you go from miniature golf to pitch-n-putt to the US Open. Um.... aren't there some steps in the middle missing?

2) The underlying issue is that there's no 4* gameplay. Create a second tier of 4*-focused PvP and PvE, and most of these issues go away. (Until they start repeating at the 4*-5* transition due to lack of 5* gameplay, etc. etc. ad infinitum ad astra ad nauseum.)

Warbringa

DaveR4470 wrote:

Well stated.

A couple of things to add:

1) What's most striking with MPQ right now is the vast, vast, VAST difference in terms of ease/time/commitment between the 2*-3* transition and the 3*-4* transition.

2*-3* is somewhat difficult at first, but as time goes by and the DDQ successes add up, it becomes significantly easier -- and eventually trivial -- to hit your DDQ nodes every day and obtain good covers with reasonable placements in PvE or PvP events.

3*-4* requires heavy, heavy grinding or serious expenditure on HP to fund constant shielding, and as time goes by, the continuing rich-get-richer incentives (e.g. SuperDDQ and high-tier alliance rewards) makes the situation worse and worse.

So it's like you're golfing, and you go from miniature golf to pitch-n-putt to the US Open. Um.... aren't there some steps in the middle missing?

2) The underlying issue is that there's no 4* gameplay. Create a second tier of 4*-focused PvP and PvE, and most of these issues go away. (Until they start repeating at the 4*-5* transition due to lack of 5* gameplay, etc. etc. ad infinitum ad astra ad nauseum.)

Dave, you summarized my concerns correctly and in a more concise way, thank you. Sorry to everyone for the long explanation on my OP but I want the developers to understand where someone like myself in the mid-tier currently sees the game as I am approaching the 3* to 4* transition.

LegendReborn

It's not even like the two to three star progression is straight forward at all either. I've hit 1k and hit 800 in my last handful of pvps and I haven't hit top hundred in most of those. Show me any two to three star transition player that is making top hundred in those brackets.

Warbringa

LegendReborn wrote:

It's not even like the two to three star progression is straight forward at all either. I've hit 1k and hit 800 in my last handful of pvps and I haven't hit top hundred in most of those. Show me any two to three star transition player that is making top hundred in those brackets.

Agreed. I use to see two star players in PvP towards the top and all the time in PvE near the top but no more.

DaveR4470

LegendReborn wrote:

It's not even like the two to three star progression is straight forward at all either. I've hit 1k and hit 800 in my last handful of pvps and I haven't hit top hundred in most of those. Show me any two to three star transition player that is making top hundred in those brackets.

But if you're hitting 800 and 1000 in PvP, you're still getting quality covers from the progression awards even if your overall placement isn't super. And you've got DDQ. So your 2*-3* progress is steady, as there are multiple ways in which you can obtain the necessary covers, and you should be getting a good flow of usable 3* covers.

To get 4* covers, you HAVE to hit 1000-1300 -- every single PvP -- and you HAVE to finish in the top 100. (Or you have to be in a top-100 alliance... which means you have to be hitting those numbers anyhow.) And as part of doing that, you've got to compete with teams that have mature, fully-covered and leveled 4*s. Or you have to grind (if Hulk is the paradigm) every single node refresh in full for every event, for one 4* cover a week (or, if you hit the 5% jackpot, one 5* cover).

I'm not arguing for a DDQ-like system that hands out 4*s like candy. (Well, not yet at least. When we're into 6* land, maybe.) What I do want is a reasonable path to acquisition of 4* covers with a mid- to high-level 3* roster without disproportionate outlays of time/money or unfair, self-reinforcing competitive disadvantages.

LegendReborn

I'm not talking about myself. I can hit 1k because I have a bunch of strong 166 3* but what about the 2->3 players who that top hundred placement reward is for? I'm getting edged out of top 100 with a score of 1k+ in PVP which means there's tons of people who actually need the covers not getting them but D3 is to cheap to expand the brackets despite it literally not accelerating progression beyond where it was previously.

I agree that the 3->4 progression is a total joke but the 2->3 progression is an even larger joke.

DaveR4470

LegendReborn wrote:

I'm not talking about myself. I can hit 1k because I have a bunch of strong 166 3* but what about the 2->3 players who that top hundred placement reward is for? I'm getting edged out of top 100 with a score of 1k+ in PVP which means there's tons of people who actually need the covers not getting them but D3 is to cheap to expand the brackets despite it literally not accelerating progression beyond where it was previously.

I agree that the 3->4 progression is a total joke but the 2->3 progression is an even larger joke.

Ah, sorry. Yep, agree with you -- the squeeze pushes downward, too. The 4* teams push the 3* teams out of the placements they need, and the 3* teams accordingly push the 2* teams out of the placements they need. Rinse, lather, repeat.

The difference, I guess, is that there are viable alternatives to PvP for the 2*-3* transition. PvE progression awards are slower, but available without having to grind and grind.

LegendReborn

You're forgetting the atrocious addition of a 4* requirement node in PVE. That essentially locks out anyone with that 4* from anything more than a lucky 2 cover individual reward with heavy heavy grinding.

Warbringa

Developers, another important resource you need to take into account is the players time. It is far more important resource to us, the players, than or for the game. You can add more stuff but the average player isn't going to spend more time than they already are playing the game. I probably average around 2 hours per day on the game. 30 minutes for DDQ (before new 4* challenge) and 90 minutes between PvE/Pvp (all of that for sure if I am clearing three nodes per day). Unless you make the game more time friendly for 4* transition, you will lose players. I have already considered that two hours is way more than I should spend on the game. This is a match 3 game, not an online MMO or a story rich game like Skyrim etc. This is why your original DDQ was so important, it gave the players progression with the need for limited time spent. PvE is generally a huge time sink and really not worth the rewards for the time spent. PvP is better but honestly getting 1000 consistently is difficult without significant expenditure and can be a unpredictable depending on the featured character and is the least fun game mode (no story what so ever/not directly playing vs. opponent just AI running his/her team in a manner a player would not, etc.).

For the last 9 months, I have just about played this game exclusively since starting it. What brought me to the game (other than Marvel mixed with Puzzle Quest) was that you could play bits at a time. 30 minutes here, 30 minutes there but I knew you would still have to devote time played to progress earning covers and Iso mainly. It was fun to go from 1* to 2* and even more fun filling out a 3* roster. Now though, things look bleak when I consider my next step would be to fill out a 4* roster. I will happily spend money to buy for roster spots, shields and sometimes even covers (f I just can't seem to get that one or two I need). I am not willing to grind more than I feel that I already am though and I will take my $10-$15/mo. I have averaged spending on MPQ and probably go spend that money buying/playing other games that will give me a sense of progression/fulfillment if MPQ stops doing so.

Don't get me wrong, I love the game and I want to see it succeed and you guys prosper from it but major transitions in a game like this can make or break a game. I want to make sure you hear from someone like myself who I consider a mid level player. You handled the 2* to 3* transitions well, I hope this one works itself out better than my initial impressions lead me to believe. I know it is early in this phase of the game and I think you guys will adjust appropriately if it is needed. I would love to be able to work on that 4* roster!

firethorne

And another added negative effect is that adding legendary tokens incentives taking rewards you don't need. For example, I just got my 70k Hulk progression. I am in the top 50. I have zero need for Hulk covers. By working for progression, I'm de facto working on making it extremely difficult for someone that actually wants the placement awards. And, if that is the case, they're probably already at a disadvantage, being less likely to also have the boosted/essentials.

It has existed in PvP with progression and season rankings. But in PvP, that can also translate to juicy high point targets. Not so for PvE.

Crowl

One way to improve things for me would be to add a token between heroic and legendary, using it as a reward instead of some of the random 3* covers in the progression/placement rewards and for more event tokens to be given out instead of the random 2* tokens.

Obviously there would be a need to balance the point totals required to account for the greater flexibility of the rewards, but if they are moving the game to a 4*/5* game then speeding progression through 2* and even 3* clearly needs to happen even if those who spent a lot longer getting to 4* took a lot longer in the past. If you look at other longterm games such as MMOs like WoW they all go through changes like this, if you are basically obsoleting chunks of content then you need to reduce the time people spend doing it.

The alternative approach would be that they decide not to invalidate the 2*/3* level and could run parallel pve/pvp content e.g. in pvp you would select your max (unboosted) level and would compete against teams of a similar level for rewards appropriate to that level and unappealing to somebody with a higher level of roster. Obviously, selecting a level-restricted event would lock you out of the unrestricted version of the same event so that those who need the higher rewards would not run in both for the easy iso of the lesser event.