1 man's view of pvp - how NOT to fix the shield system

atomzed
atomzed Posts: 1,753 Chairperson of the Boards
edited August 2015 in MPQ General Discussion
One man's view of pvp

Edit: To clarify, the Icex posts which prompted me to write this thread is found here.
viewtopic.php?style=1&f=7&t=32022&start=20

TL:DR - The current pvp system artificially forces the elite with the typical players. No matter how you tweak the current system, as long as the elite players are playing with the typical players, the typical players will be crushed mercilessly. Changing the shield system will not help in curbing the high scores, because the elite players will find a way to beat the system. The best solution will be to separate the elite from the typical players, by having a league system. Note: I want to keep the current system as it is, but if d3 wants to change things, they should only look at changing the competition structure.

Disclaimer: I don't consider myself an elite player even though I can hit 1300 when I want to. I have 3 max 4*, and about 15 max 3*. I belong to the "legendary" LINE battle chat group, but I think it's impact is overestimated.

Definition: Elite players, in my definition, are players who regularly go beyond the top progression rewards, simply for the thrill of it. Majority of the elite players already have max out characters. They don't need the covers, but they want the thrill and prestige of being the top in the PVP. And more importantly, they want their alliance to be top. They would spend hundreds of HP on shield hopping for this prestige.

Typical players are players who play with a rational approach in minimising their HP expenses and maximizing their rewards. These may include players who are F2P, or those who have purchased some covers.

Introduction

Icex has recently posted that D3 is reviewing the shield mechanics, possibly in response to the score inflation. When D3 introduce the shield cool downs, the scores reached as high as 1500 points. Scores reached back to a "normal", but after a few more seasons, elite players (from top alliances) once again reach a new high. Just see the top scores of the crewsaders in pool party,  with their top players reaching 3K points.

This new high is likely to prompt D3 to once again tweak the shield system.

My worry is that when they tweak the shield system, it will have an adverse impact on the typical average players. Hence I want to encourage a constructive open discussion about the shield system and the pvp system.

Evolution of Shield System

In the old, old days of PVP, there was no shields. The pvp is like a Battle Royale, where everyone attack and kill each other. Even if you are very strong, as long as you have enough points, the zombie horde will attack you and take you down. In those days, the winner of the pvp is determined solely by the last hour action. It doesn't matter how high you reach in the 2 days of pvp, the deciding factor of your placement and progression is determine solely by the last hour grinding. This is much like our current lightning rounds and pve.

Shields were originally designed by D3 to "protect" your scores. The players can push as much as possible, shield up to "rest up" or attend to RL tasks, then break shield to push again. It was a great hit and it achieve it's intention of allowing players to play when they can.

Soon after the introduction of shield, an elite player found a way to uss the shield reach high scores.Shield hopping was discovered. In shield hopping, the players make use of the facts that 1) when shielded, players cannot be queued up in new nodes, 2) when you unshield, you have a few minutes of lead time to complete your match. As long as you finish your match quickly, you are unlikely to be hit. It works best when you have a high hp team, because it takes your opponent more time to take you out, giving you more time during your hop.

This shield hop technique quickly catch on, and soon after, it evolved into the well coordinated battle chats.  More and more players started using it.

While shield hop was first discovered by an elite player, it is not limited to an elite player. A typical player can also use it. A 3* player can also use shield hop. My first shield hop team was actually 3* Hulk and 3* Lcap. That was my best team that I could use against those stronger teams, and I limit myself to 1-2 games hop. It worked mostly as I go in with full boost. Speed is relative, and the benefit of shield hops is that it allows you to try to go beyond your current tier.

D3 noticed the shield hop technique, and clamped it down by introducing shield cooldowns. The premise is that you only have limited shields you can use per pvp, and will reduce the number of available hops. It worked, and reduced the scoring... For a while.

Since the shield cooldowns were introduced, the frequency of hops were reduced. But the coordination of the battle chats became better. Truces were maintained between different alliances, such that you hit a player only after he is shielded, which is a win win situation for everyone. Enforcers were created, such that the player who broke the truce, are punished repeatedly. Both serves as a carrot and stick, carrot as if you follow the truce, it is easier to get top progression reward; and the stick because if you don't follow the truce, you will get sniped repeatedly.

Such well oiled coordination (along with the max point increase to 75 pts) give rise to the new score record of 3000+ pts.

Proposed Solutions - the cure is worse than the disease

Some players who are not on LINE chat are upset with such situation (even though the LINE chats are not exclusive, and if anyone ask, they can be invited). They proposed many "solutions" that they think could "fix" the situation.

While their intention may be good, I will argue that none of the solutions will work. The logic is that 1) elite players will continue to find ways to beat the system, be it through better coordination through out of game comms, or through ingenious way of playing the game. 2) typical players, esp players who don't whale, will lose a current set of tool, to help them punch beyond their weight. 3) elite players will work together through outside coordination, and there is no way to stop it 4) as long as elite players are put together with typical players, typical players will generally be rank below them, as the elite players will spend more HP than the the typical players. The elite players will always get greater scores for their own pride and alliance pride.

Let me run through some of the proposed solutions, and see how it will affect typical players, and how the elite players can beat it.

1) Breaking shields remove all queues/ unable to queue players while shielding. This proposal assumed that if the elite players cannot keep their queue, then they can shield hop over each other.

This will work in reducing shield hops. However, this only affects the typical players, and would barely stop the elite players.

Possible elite player counter: both players unshield at the same time. 1st player will hit any 2 random queues, while the 2nd player queue up the 1st player. After the 1st player is shielded, he will notify it on the BC, and the 2nd player will then be able to hit the 1st player, without causing the first player to lose points.

Typical player experience: they break shield, and then find themselves only having single digit point targets. They try to search for good queues, but alas all the top scorers are already shielded, so no luck. If they linger too long, they fall prey to the zombie horde.

2) Unable to queue own alliance members. This works under the assumption that the shield hop players hop with members of the same alliance. So if they can't hop with the same members, shield hop won't work.

This proposal is too simple minded and will not stop shield hopping. There are already multiple alliances BC, in which players hop with members of other alliances. Even for small alliances, they can hop within themselves, by jumping to another alliance. Then they shield hop off each other, and get back to the same alliance in the last minute.

3) Unable to see points or name of the queue. This proposal assumes that if you can't see who the target is, then they can't shield hop effectively.

Again, this is a naive solution. It won't work.

Possible elite player counter: elite players can make their queues "more recognisable", by inserting unique combinations of team. Example if I put in a bagman in the team, you will immediately know it's me when you queue me up. (Don't laugh, it has been done before in the past in the old days of sentry bombing).

There are also other solutions of identifying the team. I can put in 2 characters of level 253... I can put in 3 characters of level 253, 254 and 255. Or 257, 265, 270. There are simply many many ways of making my team more recognisable than the average team.

Typical player experience: as they can't see the points of their nodes, it become a jackpot of whether they get a good queue or bad queue. This ruins the gaming experience, just see the numbers of threads they complain that they get less points. If this proposal is implemented, they will complain about why the system give them single digit nodes.

In short, none of the proposed solutions will seriously hamper the elite players in shield hopping. However, it will definitely make the typical players experience worse. Also, it make it more difficult for players to find a way to punch above their weight.

So what will really help?

My view is that the only solution is to separate the elite from the typical players. Give them a play ground to prove their worth, maybe a platinum league. Move the alliance scoring board over there, and let them menace with each other over there.

Make the pvp all about hitting progression rewards for the typical players.

What should the platinum league be like? I don't know what it should have, but I know that the elite players don't play for covers nor HP.  The typical players care about about the 4* covers availability, but not the elite players. They play for the thrill and the pride.

I know this is my own view of pvp. I just hope that this generate some discussion of how we want the "new" shield system to be like.
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Comments

  • Linkster79
    Linkster79 Posts: 1,037 Chairperson of the Boards
    I agree with you in that the top players will always find a way to ensure they remain top players. Be it through gaming the system, communicating amongst themselves better or finding and exploiting glitches. It is the way in every competitive online game. As for separating the top end players from the unwashed masses I would disagree with purely for a selfish reason that as somebody who normally scores about 800-900 points in PvP I need those players to make my own score better.

    Let's think back as to why shields were introduced. There weren't any separate time shards, for the majority of the world every other PvP finished at a very unreasonable time, either very early morning (for me 5am) or mid afternoon when most were at work or on the way home from work. Due to those end times we had no chance of a good placement unless we were to really dedicate our lives to MPQ. Now we have a choice of end times how about shields were ditched and we go back to the final hour feeding frenzy? I use shields maybe 1 PvP event in a hundred so am used to it. I either start early to get my progression then play as much as possible the last 80 minutes, or join and hope for a generous bracket.

    I know this will be a very unpopular idea on these forums as it is populated by those who consider themselves elite.
  • JamesV
    JamesV Posts: 98 Match Maker
    I think you are right, atomzed, in that a lot of times the fixes at the top end have a way of having a trickle down/relatively harsher effect on the players not on the top end.

    That's the double-edged sword of the nerfs for instance. When Sentry was the go to, people with Sentry were using him to accumulate rewards. People without Sentry were playing catch up. Nerfing Sentry balances the play field moving forward, but many of the Sentry players were able to move to the next character (Thoress) because they had an engine. Basically once you get the engine, you can keep moving with the engine. (As it should be.)

    The problem is you constantly run the risk of creating defined castes (top tier, 2nd tier, 3rd tier, etc) which would be fine if everyone weren't fighting for the same rewards. It's one thing to say be in the 2nd group and always sort of one character behind, when you don't have to deal with that 1st tier, but when everyone's in the same cell block...

    I think any real change to shields alone create a situation where those without the scarecrows/hulkbusters/weekly buffed of the game to be in a feeding frenzy with each other and really hamper progression for a lot of people.

    Personally, I think Versus should use the same system as Story for scoring: Progression is what you control, placement is relative to those around you. Make progression be based on the points you earn, make placement be Points Earned - Points Lost.
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,510 Chairperson of the Boards
    atomzed wrote:
    One man's view of pvp


    Disclaimer: I don't consider myself an elite player even though I can hit 1300 when I want to. I have 3 max 4*, and about 15 max 3*. I belong to the "legendary" LINE battle chat group, but I think it's impact is overestimated.

    Definition: Elite players, in my definition, are players who regularly go beyond the top progression rewards, simply for the thrill of it. Majority of the elite players already have max out characters. They don't need the covers, but they want the thrill and prestige of being the top in the PVP. And more importantly, they want their alliance to be top. They would spend hundreds of HP on shield hopping for this prestige.


    My view is that the only solution is to separate the elite from the typical players. Give them a play ground to prove their worth, maybe a platinum league. Move the alliance scoring board over there, and let them menace with each other over there.

    I know this is my own view of pvp. I just hope that this generate some discussion of how we want the "new" shield system to be like.


    IMHO, you are actually an elite level player. Sure you may not awesome compared to the avg crewsader, but anyone with 3 max 4* is pretty much competitive to the avg top 25 alliance roster. And when compared to the avg roster of the 99th alliance, you probably look like a a pvp god.

    Edit: IN thinking about this a bit more, you don't differentiate between an elite level roster and elite level desire to compete. There are many elite level rosters, that don't really want to put the time, or hp to compete for a top placement. These players (including myself) are more than happy to take the 1K and or 1.3K progression on 1 or 2 shields and go home. On the other hand, many players with a merely avg top 25 roster have the desire and competitiveness to find the times to make their hops and the willingness to invest in shielding. Your proposal needs to differentiate between these two players.


    Who is supposed to decide that cutoff? I'm not here to criticize your proposal, but be realistic about your roster and who you are proposing to compete with.

    I'm sure the guys at the bottom of a top 150 alliance, would just think that your their version of the crewsaders.
  • atomzed
    atomzed Posts: 1,753 Chairperson of the Boards
    Phumade wrote:

    IMHO, you are actually an elite level player. Sure you may not awesome compared to the avg crewsader, but anyone with 3 max 4* is pretty much competitive to the avg top 25 alliance roster. And when compared to the avg roster of the 99th alliance, you probably look like a a pvp god.

    Edit: IN thinking about this a bit more, you don't differentiate between an elite level roster and elite level desire to compete. There are many elite level rosters, that don't really want to put the time, or hp to compete for a top placement. These players (including myself) are more than happy to take the 1K and or 1.3K progression on 1 or 2 shields and go home

    You know why I don't consider myself as elite? It is because once I reach 1300, I will pack up and go home. I don't spend more HP than necessary to get my rewards. So if the rewards are 4* that I already have, I will attempt to minimise my shield expenses.

    Elite players don't do that. Because they play for the thrill and pride, even if they already have the 4* covers, they will spend hundreds of HP shield hopping.

    You may call these elite players as "irrational consumers".
    Who is supposed to decide that cutoff? I'm not here to criticize your proposal, but be realistic about your roster and who you are proposing to compete with.
    .

    Who decides? I don't know. There are possible variations of such an elite league.

    1) Players who make a buy in will get to compete in this league. Players who don't buy in will compete in the typical pvp.

    2) The cut off is determined by prior performance.

    3) The cut off is determined by roster strength.

    All the above has its pros and cons. I don't deny that there are more thinking that needs to be done..

    The main purpose of the post is to highlight the fact that the PVP problem is NOT due to the shield system. It is a natural outcome of lumping elite (Or economically irrational) players with typical (or economically rational) players.
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,510 Chairperson of the Boards
    atomzed wrote:

    You know why I don't consider myself as elite? It is because once I reach 1300, I will pack up and go home. I don't spend more HP than necessary to get my rewards. So if the rewards are 4* that I already have, I will attempt to minimise my shield expenses.

    Elite players don't do that. Because they play for the thrill and pride, even if they already have the 4* covers, they will spend hundreds of HP shield hopping.

    Objectively speaking, anyone who can score 1300 is an elite level player. Just because you don't self identify that way doesn't mean that the rest of the community wouldn't view you in that fashion.

    Your proposal really sounds like a gripe about the top 5 pvp families. In reality, those guys are really the 1% of the 1% and are just outliers to the whole system. But even if you took out the top 250 alliances, there will always be a group of "elite" and non "elite" players.

    I think the fundamental problem is in your definition of "elite". They are only "elite" because they either a: work harder and play more diligently than others or that they are willing to spend money for an in game advantage. Non of the people in X-men, Crews, or Villains is any better or more talented at making match-3 decisions than you or I.

    The discussion of shields or shards only confuses the issue in the sense that those mechanics were designed to allow players to engage the game at their convenience vs playing according to the "one true timezone" (PST).

    People often want to vilify shield hopping or line etc.... That's really code for " I don't think I should have to put in the same work as those players to achieve X rewards". In the pre shield days, people only competitively played in that last 2 hours, the rest of the time was a soft climb for position and or playing out of boredom. In the current era, people are actually playing competitively throughout the entire pvp. As evidence, I would point out that fact that "elite" players are actually scoring 1K at the 1/2 way point. I would not be surprised if "elite" players were logging significantly more in game time than you or I. Is that statistic really related to shields? Probably not unless you want to argue that shields allows people to effectively convert their spare time into points.

    Maybe your solution is actually: You only get X number of moves per day. To me that would immediately negate the effects of shield hopping and still be timezone neutral.

    or perhaps

    We all have to ante $100 dollars to all get the same resources or perhaps
    No one can spend money on this game to procure an advantage.

    This also has the net effect of ensuring people are competing with the same resources (Time or Money).

    Overall,
    I think any proposal that allow the player base to split themselves into competitive categories will only result in very high level players sandbagging themselves so that they don't have to compete hard for 1st place.
  • atomzed
    atomzed Posts: 1,753 Chairperson of the Boards
    You mis read my intention of the post.

    My post is written in anticipation of a possible shield change. I am writing for them to be careful of any changes to the shield system.

    Quite simply I think they should keep the system as it is. There is no need to change the shield system.

    If they want to change, they should change either the reward structure of the competition structure.

    I have no quarrels with those x-men, crews, villains... In fact I am so glad they are around because it makes progression rewards so much easier to get.
  • atomzed wrote:
    You mis read my intention of the post.

    My post is written in anticipation of a possible shield change. I am writing for them to be careful of any changes to the shield system.

    Quite simply I think they should keep the system as it is. There is no need to change the shield system.

    If they want to change, they should change either the reward structure of the competition structure.

    I have no quarrels with those x-men, crews, villains... In fact I am so glad they are around because it makes progression rewards so much easier to get.

    For non-"elite" players, you need to be in the same pool with the elite in order to hit 1300. Without them, you gonna need "elite" shield hopping to get 1300. Separating everyone according to X, will be bad for progression climbing and make 4* transition backward. Imagine fighting 10 to 30 point per match once you reach 1000 ... But I think the elite might like being separate, because they are not longer the hunted. Appreciated the write up, but the system is fine. Changing one thing will lead into another problem, thus it never ending.
  • atomzed
    atomzed Posts: 1,753 Chairperson of the Boards
    To clarify, the Icex posts which prompted me to write this thread is found here.
    viewtopic.php?style=1&f=7&t=32022&start=20
  • Malcrof
    Malcrof Posts: 5,971 Chairperson of the Boards
    The 1 thing that will fix the entire PVP structure all by itself is a simple one. Add rewards all the way up to 2k and above.

    I am seeing way more scores breaking 2k in every pvp. If the elite players and those who are on the verge have a higher target to aim for, then many will start earlier and those with 3* and transitional rosters have less worry about being hit. Take the shield sim as an example.. i hit my 2k and even without shielding, i sat untouched at 1500 for weeks. This will put more points into the shard, and allow those still working on their rosters to play PVP, get decent rewards, and be able to reach 1k without worrying about the elite barraging them, because there will be many more higher point battles out there to be won.
  • Deilinvega
    Deilinvega Posts: 55 Match Maker
    But then they will make a 1000 point reward a 3* at best, and and your desired 4* will be moved up to 1800 icon_razz.gif
  • mjh
    mjh Posts: 708 Critical Contributor
    atomzed wrote:
    The best solution will be to separate the elite from the typical players, by having a league system
    While this may be true this solution has an even greater problem. The same rewards being given for lower tier play which some will argue is more unfair than the current system. Why level your roster when you can stay in the low-mid tier range and get the same rewards?
  • hurcules
    hurcules Posts: 519
    mjh wrote:
    atomzed wrote:
    The best solution will be to separate the elite from the typical players, by having a league system
    While this may be true this solution has an even greater problem. The same rewards being given for lower tier play which some will argue is more unfair than the current system. Why level your roster when you can stay in the low-mid tier range and get the same rewards?
    I think atomzed forgot to put in the part where different leagues would have different rewards and rewards structure.
  • ViralCore
    ViralCore Posts: 169 Tile Toppler
    The Crewsaders honor me by allowing me to be part of the alliance, I do not speak on the alliance's behalf but please note... any changes to the shield system affects non-top 10 alliances more than it affects us. Top 10 alliance players are passionate about the game and spend a LOT of time and money on it. I would say we spend more on shields, per pvp, than it would to just buy the covers and packs. We love the game so much that we will continue to thrive and any changes to the shield system will merely prevent the trickle down effect. Say good-bye to your progressions if that happens.
  • xellessanova
    xellessanova Posts: 183 Tile Toppler
    I agree with the OP that the proposed changes to shielding are going to be worse, BUT I don't think that forking off a separate elite league will help -- how else are the rest of us rational actors supposed to get the points if they're not in the system? What happens now is that I take my 1 or 2 4* from progression and go home with whatever placement 1350 gets nowadays and that's cool, because I don't even need more 3*s anyway.

    People tutile.png aren't complaining because other people are beating them, they're complaining because they can't get the prizes to move forward, and this is frustrating.

    The problem, as I see it, with the existing point inflation is that transitioners who need those 3*s can't get to the placement awards, and a top 100 alliance can't support several 2*>3* transitioners to help them get the alliance rewards because we need to have an 800+ average.

    In my experience it takes 850+ to get top 100 now, 1000+ for top 50, 1050+ for top 25, and 1350+ for top 10 (depending on slice and luck).

    icon_idea.gif I think the solution might be just to have a checkbox set up for PVP entrance, so when you choose your endtime, you can also choose "3x ISO (+1500 ISO per cover-equivalent), I understand that I will not get 3*s" or "Standard 3* rewards". This could 1. split off people who need ISO from people who need 3* covers into separate brackets or 2. just set it so that unused covers flow down to people until 100 people per bracket get 3* covers. This keeps everyone still in the same pool to fight per time slice and makes it a little easier in the standard bracket, but it gets a lot harder in the iso-bracket of doom so it's more of a challenge for the elite.

    tutile.png Not me, I'm fine with the existing system
  • wymtime
    wymtime Posts: 3,762 Chairperson of the Boards
    I will say this the shield cool downs hurt more free to play players than the players who were spending HP to score huge scores in PVP. Any changes to the shield system is about trying to let layers who are FTP stay closer in scores to players who are willing to Pay to win. The crusaders has so many players over 3000 points it was crazy impressive. I bow down to you crusaders because you pushed the envelope. You spent more HP in one event then I would in a season on shields.

    I have posted this before and will post it again now. If D3 really wants to limit scoring so players are not so much pay to win they would just need to limit the number of shields that a player can use. If you removed shield cool downs and just let players use 5 shields max then top spending players would have a cap to how muc h they could spend. FTP players who would normally use 1 shield would have closer scores but would still fall below the true elite. Also by removing the shield cool down players could use 2-3 three hour shields to make the 1300 progression instead of having to use the 3,8,3 or 8,3,8 system. Players could play more on their time which is good.
    Will players still score 1500 points? Sure will they score 2000+ points probably not.
    Will this frustrate top end players who are willing to spend the HP to win? Yes.
    Will it mean D3 loses some revenue? Yes
    Will it be better for the whole community? Yes
    This to me would be the easiest solution to the shield system if D3 is determined to lower scores.
  • Deilinvega
    Deilinvega Posts: 55 Match Maker
    wymtime wrote:
    Will it mean D3 loses some revenue? Yes

    Your point is invalid. Think of something else XD
  • atomzed wrote:
    I know this is my own view of pvp. I just hope that this generate some discussion of how we want the "new" shield system to be like.

    Your wall of text crits pretty hard, but I managed to read most of it. Apologies if I missed this point but...

    You didn't mention as one of the solution to allow the shielded target be discoverable. We call it PvP, but the game calls it Versus, either way, I think this game mode should be a dangerous environment, and players should always run the risk of being attacked. You already have a way to be protected at all times without exposing yourself by constantly using shields right as it expires. No changes to shield necessary. This would also allow all players to gain points from the high point targets, which is fair, and does not require out of game communication. The point inflation will still exist as long as there are hardcore players, but at least every player has the opportunity to be hardcore if they use the same amount of shields, which is available to all players.
  • wymtime
    wymtime Posts: 3,762 Chairperson of the Boards
    Deilinvega wrote:
    wymtime wrote:
    Will it mean D3 loses some revenue? Yes

    Your point is invalid. Think of something else XD
    Ant that idea would be what since you think it is all about revenue?
  • Deilinvega
    Deilinvega Posts: 55 Match Maker
    wymtime wrote:
    Deilinvega wrote:
    wymtime wrote:
    Will it mean D3 loses some revenue? Yes

    Your point is invalid. Think of something else XD
    Ant that idea would be what since you think it is all about revenue?


    And it isn't? Besides I was snarking. No need to drag this and derail thread.
  • mjh wrote:
    atomzed wrote:
    The best solution will be to separate the elite from the typical players, by having a league system
    While this may be true this solution has an even greater problem. The same rewards being given for lower tier play which some will argue is more unfair than the current system. Why level your roster when you can stay in the low-mid tier range and get the same rewards?

    A simple solution to this is to simply change the rewards, and remove the forced performance rankings (which would result if you didn't perform well enough to stay in your league).

    Let's think about an implementation of the league system that is VOLUNTARY. This removes the burden of casual players from having to constantly perform well to not get dropped down a league.

    PvP leagues for each event which help to separate the "elites" from the "casuals". A player cannot join more than one league per PvP event.

    Casual Leagues
    Rules: Current PvP shielding rules.
    Casual Bronze (free entry, max individual pt reward = 2*, no alliance rewards, cannot use 3* or 4* heroes). 1st place = 5 heroic packs (or something like that)
    Casual Silver (free entry, max individual pt reward = 3*, no alliance rewards, cannot use 4* heroes) 1st place = 5 heroic packs
    Casual Gold (free entry, max individual pt reward = 4*, no alliance rewards), 1st place = 5 heroic packs

    "Elite" Leagues
    Alliance PvP leagues would require the Alliance Leader to spend the required ISO before anyone in his alliance could compete in these events. Alliance members could donate ISO to the Alliance. No limit to what heroes can be used.
    Alliance Bronze (50k ISO (~1k per member), individual point and placement rewards, alliance point and placement rewards), top placing alliances get Bronze trophy
    Alliance Silver (250k ISO (~5k per member), individual point and placement rewards, alliance point and placement rewards), top placing alliances get Silver trophy
    Alliance Gold (1000k ISO (20k per member), individual point and placement rewards, alliance point and placement rewards), top placing alliances get Gold trophy

    Alliances could boast how many trophies they have (which could just be an icon on their alliance page, or have some other benefit, like faster damage regen on heroes, or whatever). It would give the Elite players bragging rights ("We have over 30 Gold PvP trophies!" etc), and would give them reason to play on the Alliance Leagues.

    This is just a very rough idea, but it shows how you can solve the PvP elite vs casual problem without having to reinvent the wheel.