MPQ AI - A Worthy Opponent

IceIX

For all interested in how the AI makes its moves in the game and a peek at some of the lines of thought behind continued AI design for the game, check out Demiurge's Justin Libby and his blog post on delving into the world of the so-called cheating AI!

http://www.demiurgestudios.com/engineer ... -opponent/

Unknown

IceIX wrote:

For all interested in how the AI makes its moves in the game and a peek at some of the lines of thought behind continued AI design for the game, check out Demiurge's Justin Libby and his blog post on delving into the world of the so-called cheating AI!

http://www.demiurgestudios.com/engineer ... -opponent/

Beat ya to it. Oh well. official thread is better thread.

IceIX

****! Sorry to the three people that posted in that other thread. I just managed to merge the threads backwards and wiped out the three posts.

fmftint

The decision is common in established software: changes have a cost; don't make big modifications unless you understand the cost and the effect.

Heavy handed character nerfs imply they don't exactly follow this principle

Unknown

IceIX wrote:

****! Sorry to the three people that posted in that other thread. I just managed to merge the threads backwards and wiped out the three posts.

Haha, at least it was only a small set of us. No foul.

yogi_

IceIX wrote:

****! Sorry to the three people that posted in that other thread. I just managed to merge the threads backwards and wiped out the three posts.

Tis ok, forum stuff happens.

I had a reasonably long response but the summary was, this might align with the occaisional suggestion of running the same event for two different audiences - regular AI for regular prizes and tougher AI for slightly better prizes. Players pick one or the other. I am sure a lot of people with high level rosters would be interested in this. Out of season could be a good trial.

Simiarly, as a broad testing and tasting, you could run a sample PvE from across Dark Reign - from low levels to higher, but all with the harder AI.

lukewin

Ok, that explains why the AI matches it's own special tiles. Because it's trying to charge it's powers, it will not discriminate that one of the tiles in the match has a special tile. Knowing this, I might not match the enemy special tiles, if there are other matches for me, since the AI might match it itself. So when playing the AI, you might want to go with the same color users as the AI, so you can fight for the same colors.

Vhailorx

It's a great blog post! On point, thoughtful, informative, communicative! Yay for demiurge Justin! Boo for confirmation bias!

As for the final question: more difficulty would be a double edged sword.

I have no doubt that many people (myself included) would say they want a better ai, but get incredibly frustrated by the experience of actually playing against a better ai.

I think there are probably a few things could be changed universally, like letting the ai see L and T match 5s. That wouldn't be too game changing, and there are already counter abilities in the game. It would be nice to feel like I wasn't playing against a brick all the time (not that I want to play against HAL either. . .)

I would also like to see an infrequent appearance of the full-on, really good ai, either in a sandbox for fun, or in an opt-in tourney with really good rewards.

Unknown

yogi_ wrote:

IceIX wrote:

****! Sorry to the three people that posted in that other thread. I just managed to merge the threads backwards and wiped out the three posts.

Tis ok, forum stuff happens.

I had a reasonably long response but the summary was, this might align with the occaisional suggestion of running the same event for two different audiences - regular AI for regular prizes and tougher AI for slightly better prizes. Players pick one or the other. I am sure a lot of people with high level rosters would be interested in this. Out of season could be a good trial.

Simiarly, as a broad testing and tasting, you could run a sample PvE from across Dark Reign - from low levels to higher, but all with the harder AI.

Need to fine-tune your statement a 'lil:

"as a broad testing and tasting, you could run a sample PvE from across Dark Reign - from low levels to higher, but with the lower-scaled nodes having the harder AI."

The seemingly unfair cascading in-the-AI's favour coupled with insanely boosted levels and smarter AI would be the death and destruction of all of us as we know it. The machines have already started gaining sentience. Let's not hasten our own doomsday.



P.S. Also, pleasepleaseplease DON'T do it for new toon rewards PVE's. Especially if they're 4*.

fmftint

Vhailorx wrote:

It's a great blog post! On point, thoughtful, informative, communicative! Yay for demiurge Justin! Boo for confirmation bias!

As for the final question: more difficulty would be a double edged sword.

I have no doubt that many people (myself included) would say they want a better ai, but get incredibly frustrated by the experience of actually playing against a better ai.

I think there are probably a few things could be changed universally, like letting the ai see L and T match 5s. That wouldn't be too game changing, and there are already counter abilities in the game. It would be nice to feel like I wasn't playing against a brick all the time (not that I want to play against HAL either. . .)

I would also like to see an infrequent appearance of the full-on, really good ai, either in a sandbox for fun, or in an opt-in tourney with really good rewards.

Smarter AI would be a fair trade only if they got rid of ap feeders

TLCstormz

MORE difficulty???

The game is already ridiculous as is, with it's wretched 4 and 5 critical matches in a row PER TURN.

No thx.

morph3us

Vhailorx wrote:

I would also like to see an infrequent appearance of the full-on, really good ai, either in a sandbox for fun, or in an opt-in tourney with really good rewards.

It would be actually kinda fun to have a boss battle in a non-competitive PvE with the Faster, Better, Stronger AI.

tanis3303

The day the Ai sees T and L match 5s will be my last day playing. C'mon man, Lvl 400 enemies with comically over scaled damage abilities is difficult enough. If you make it even harder, who can we send the bills for our broken windows and phones/tablets to?

GuntherBlobel

A better AI would make MPQ a better game. Too many (interesting) characters in this game are undervalued because of how badly the AI plays them. And so, MPQ is less puzzle-y than it should be because the AI can't solve even the most simple puzzles.

No wonder Jean Grey teams are everywhere in PvP. She punishes human players for making smart moves and then targets the entire team with every power, eliminating the need for any strategy concerning when are where to aim her powers. She's the perfect character for the AI to play, but I find her more boring than Thor to play.

The only reason Lvl 395 enemies are part of the game is because the AI can't win a match with Lvl 166 characters. Since MPQ is 99% competitive, a smarter AI wouldn't make progressing through the game any tougher, unless you're really bad at matching gems compared to everyone else.

War of Gems has a smarter AI, and trust me, you adapt quickly. But whatever, I totally understand why a smarter AI will never happen. See TLCStormz's reaction above.

Still, I firmly believe Devs made a big mistake early on with this AI. It must be disappointing for them to release interesting new characters just to hear "Vision sucks! Quicksilver sucks! Starlord sucks! GSBW sucks!" when it's really the AI that sucks.

danae

I wonder how the meta (with regards to defensive teams) would change with smarter AI. I've heard people saying several times that using particular teams suck because although they could do well offensively, the AI would just be useless in defense with that team.

I would be in favor of a worthy opponent. Of course, scaling would need to be looked at.

Bowgentle

aesthetocyst wrote:

The game leveling to increase difficulty because there's nothing else. Presumably, if more sophisticated AI were implemented, scaling (in the form of crazypants overleveling) would be dialed back ... or become a thing of the past.

I've heard this too often now.

"Scaling will get better when Spidey is nerfed."
"Scaling will get better when CMags is nerfed."
"Scaling will get better when Thorverine 2.0 is nerfed."

No, scaling never got better after a change. It's here to stay, and it's here to stay at exactly the level it is now, until they do a general reset for everyone, after which you get the scaling you deserve for the chars you use.

Until that general reset, the ones of us who are in the level 395 hole will never see the scaling light of day, no matter what changes.

turul

Copypasting what i asked in Monthly Q&A a while ago:

Are there plans to make the AI more intelligent / more humanlike?

Not-to-be-idiot level optimizations:
Not matching own special tiles, especially ones created just before.
Not casting sentry-sacrifice when this gives up the match.
Not casting a power which is already in effect (like Vision/Same density)
Using powers properly (Quicksilver Idle Hands = create a match)

Too smart AI = bad player experience type of optimizations:
Proper power casting orders, like Thoress blue->red, IW blue->green, Vision, etc
Using powers properly (GSBW/MnM purple)
Choosing the better powers.

Humans makes mistakes...
AI matchmaking in a more human manner:
can "properly" find possible match5s
can choose a better-color match3 than an off color match4
can miss a match5 or match4. (based on random and not on determinable tile-composition)

dider152

I hope they don't change the AI. It's already hard enough as it is. Oh, and **** the creator of the Heroic events.

Unknown

yogi_ wrote:

I had a reasonably long response but the summary was, this might align with the occaisional suggestion of running the same event for two different audiences - regular AI for regular prizes and tougher AI for slightly better prizes. Players pick one or the other.

I like this suggestion.

Could allow players to choose a difficulty at the beginning of an event which also determines their prizes.

Alternatively, could keep prizes the same and give a difficulty slider for each node, to allow players to gamble. Move the slider higher for a larger points haul, but also risk of defeat and time cost. Not going to happen this way as way too many things could go wrong, but a nice thought.

Unknown

Adding hard AI won't make scaling lower. It will just make so that playing perfectly with your best team on full health will have still big chance of failure. And that going with damaged characters or those that are not top tier one just suicide.

In theory it's all fair since all players will be failing more. In practice it will end up being same grind, with only way to get top awards is to purchase health packs by HP. Currently it's not needed (beside maybe trying for t2 on new 4*) as with roster deep enough and 10 packs and right grind plan you can get 95%+ points from system without resorting to that.

It will introduce same tinykitty as shield hopping in PvE - using $$$ to brute force system. Can't pay? Can't compete. And there is still thing of splitting player base way too much (if it's optional), going from 5 to 10 time slices. I don't actually think it can be optional, you just can't make it work with Alliances rewards.

I don't see it doing anything in PvP. If Jean is indeed as popular, how will making AI making match 5 maker her weaker? It will just boost her offence. And isn't main reason for her that Fistbuster is so good at quick matches? Which again will make it even stronger team on defense because Iron Fist will actually go for 5-match after cast if one is available.
Thing is, as long as shields can be used to infinitely add points into system without sucking them out, PvP diversity won't differ, it's always going to be the fastest team to do 2 preplanned matches and to shield again. No changes to AI will change that.

FOADakaSquirrelBoy

GuntherBlobel wrote:

A better AI would make MPQ a better game. Too many (interesting) characters in this game are undervalued because of how badly the AI plays them. And so, MPQ is less puzzle-y than it should be because the AI can't solve even the most simple puzzles.

No wonder Jean Grey teams are everywhere in PvP. She punishes human players for making smart moves and then targets the entire team with every power, eliminating the need for any strategy concerning when are where to aim her powers. She's the perfect character for the AI to play, but I find her more boring than Thor to play.

The only reason Lvl 395 enemies are part of the game is because the AI can't win a match with Lvl 166 characters. Since MPQ is 99% competitive, a smarter AI wouldn't make progressing through the game any tougher, unless you're really bad at matching gems compared to everyone else.

War of Gems has a smarter AI, and trust me, you adapt quickly. But whatever, I totally understand why a smarter AI will never happen. See TLCStormz's reaction above.

Still, I firmly believe Devs made a big mistake early on with this AI. It must be disappointing for them to release interesting new characters just to hear "Vision sucks! Quicksilver sucks! Starlord sucks! GSBW sucks!" when it's really the AI that sucks.

Changes to the matchmaking algorithm will do nothing to make any of those characters better on defense, though...