Defense and Retaliations
Spencer75
Posts: 232
The changes to the attack system (you now only have one attack, no more 3 try system) have gotten me thinking about defense and retaliations
I've always structured my team with an eye on how it's attacked. In the halcyon days of Ragnarok i leveled the hell out of him once i found that 5th red cover. My thinking was that the team, while not unbeatable, would be annoying enough with rag-spam and his massive hit bank that, all things being equal, many players wouldn't attack him. I think it served as a fine enough deterrent, but those were different days.
I love the new system because it places so much more emphasis on defense (and for better or worse, how the AI uses your team)
Right now in the no holds barred i mostly use the following team
The Hood lvl 132 5/5/3
Classic Magneto lvl 111 5/3/5
Punisher lvl 110 5/5/3
I'm trying to level Hulk to get him into the lineup for magneto for when i go on the defensive (i.e. put the phone down and stop playing)
I think the Hulk, while far less effective for ME on offense, is a way bigger headache for opponents when they attack, especially if they don't have spiderman
Magneto on the other hand is one of the most effective characters on offense, but very unimpressive on defense.
Anyways I like the makeup of my team because it has a high level Hood with a maxed blue, something that players don't often see. He can be a headache for opponents, especially if they don't know to get rid of him first. I pick up quite a few wins on defense. Especially after I've subbed in my Hulk or lvl 85 Ares, 4/4/5.
Retaliations - I used to have a blanket policy of not retaliating against lower ranked opponents except in very special circumstances (someone in my own bracket, minutes from the end of a tournament, or right before shielding)
Now, however, everything has changed.
Yesterday i was attacked 3 times by a player with a lower point total and a far weaker team. He lost twice and won once. I broke even on the points I believe but could still retaliate for 17 points or so. With the new system I don't have to worry about any team being able to beat mine, he was far outclassed and probably starting to burn through health packs. So I retaliated. I picked up 17 points and sure enough a few minutes later I got even more points because he had tried to retaliate, again. This system is way better than before. 2 weeks ago I would have lost 3 times (2 of them for lower point totals because he lost the first matchups) and retaliation would have been out of the question. I would have been down close to 100 points. Now i come out ahead by about 35.
MMR issues aside i think the new system rewards players with stronger rosters, allowing them to place in tournaments in spots that are more in line with the strength of their team
Because of the changes I've put even more emphasis on making my team less enticing to attack and, once attacked, less likely to be beaten
I've always structured my team with an eye on how it's attacked. In the halcyon days of Ragnarok i leveled the hell out of him once i found that 5th red cover. My thinking was that the team, while not unbeatable, would be annoying enough with rag-spam and his massive hit bank that, all things being equal, many players wouldn't attack him. I think it served as a fine enough deterrent, but those were different days.
I love the new system because it places so much more emphasis on defense (and for better or worse, how the AI uses your team)
Right now in the no holds barred i mostly use the following team
The Hood lvl 132 5/5/3
Classic Magneto lvl 111 5/3/5
Punisher lvl 110 5/5/3
I'm trying to level Hulk to get him into the lineup for magneto for when i go on the defensive (i.e. put the phone down and stop playing)
I think the Hulk, while far less effective for ME on offense, is a way bigger headache for opponents when they attack, especially if they don't have spiderman
Magneto on the other hand is one of the most effective characters on offense, but very unimpressive on defense.
Anyways I like the makeup of my team because it has a high level Hood with a maxed blue, something that players don't often see. He can be a headache for opponents, especially if they don't know to get rid of him first. I pick up quite a few wins on defense. Especially after I've subbed in my Hulk or lvl 85 Ares, 4/4/5.
Retaliations - I used to have a blanket policy of not retaliating against lower ranked opponents except in very special circumstances (someone in my own bracket, minutes from the end of a tournament, or right before shielding)
Now, however, everything has changed.
Yesterday i was attacked 3 times by a player with a lower point total and a far weaker team. He lost twice and won once. I broke even on the points I believe but could still retaliate for 17 points or so. With the new system I don't have to worry about any team being able to beat mine, he was far outclassed and probably starting to burn through health packs. So I retaliated. I picked up 17 points and sure enough a few minutes later I got even more points because he had tried to retaliate, again. This system is way better than before. 2 weeks ago I would have lost 3 times (2 of them for lower point totals because he lost the first matchups) and retaliation would have been out of the question. I would have been down close to 100 points. Now i come out ahead by about 35.
MMR issues aside i think the new system rewards players with stronger rosters, allowing them to place in tournaments in spots that are more in line with the strength of their team
Because of the changes I've put even more emphasis on making my team less enticing to attack and, once attacked, less likely to be beaten
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Comments
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Oh it was you needlessly attacking my way lower-leveled team. 3 times to boot, I think. I remember your name quite well. No heroes of mine above level 60 and your team of 3x 3*** above level 100. Well played, sir. (Not really). I'm gonna hunt you down just for fun, once my heroes hit higher levels, even 115-141 whatever will be of no problem. I'm still max at 69 though. Pity.0
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locked wrote:Oh it was you needlessly attacking my way lower-leveled team. 3 times to boot, I think. I remember your name quite well. No heroes of mine above level 60 and your team of 3x 3*** above level 100. Well played, sir. (Not really). I'm gonna hunt you down just for fun, once my heroes hit higher levels, even 115-141 whatever will be of no problem. I'm still max at 69 though. Pity.
I don't remember you but be my guest!0 -
Spencer75 wrote:locked wrote:Oh it was you needlessly attacking my way lower-leveled team. 3 times to boot, I think. I remember your name quite well. No heroes of mine above level 60 and your team of 3x 3*** above level 100. Well played, sir. (Not really). I'm gonna hunt you down just for fun, once my heroes hit higher levels, even 115-141 whatever will be of no problem. I'm still max at 69 though. Pity.
I don't remember you but be my guest!
Sure you don't remember nameless mooks you step on. Still, even I consider it below my dignity to strike the same weaker opponent 2, 3 times in a row.0 -
You're acting like a child. Do you know how difficult it is to find a match that is both 1) not time consuming or hard and 2) worth enough points to make it worth it?
If you don't want to be attack by a high levelled team, here's some advice: don't accrue enough points total to be a juicy target. Everyone wins!0 -
locked wrote:Spencer75 wrote:locked wrote:Oh it was you needlessly attacking my way lower-leveled team. 3 times to boot, I think. I remember your name quite well. No heroes of mine above level 60 and your team of 3x 3*** above level 100. Well played, sir. (Not really). I'm gonna hunt you down just for fun, once my heroes hit higher levels, even 115-141 whatever will be of no problem. I'm still max at 69 though. Pity.
I don't remember you but be my guest!
Sure you don't remember nameless mooks you step on. Still, even I consider it below my dignity to strike the same weaker opponent 2, 3 times in a row.
To be fair, if his account is corrent, you DID farm him 3x before he retaliated on you. In any case, I agree with OP. I'm loving the one-shot for PvP now. In conjunction with the increased cost of boosts (which I actually think was for the better), and somewhat improved AI (i.e. waiting for the right target to move to the front before executing an ability), we are definitely forced to be more strategic about who we can and cannot beat. I don't know if I'd want to go as far as a skip-tax given how much of a pain it is to farm ISO, but still great PvP changes overall.0 -
jozier wrote:You're acting like a child. Do you know how difficult it is to find a match that is both 1) not time consuming or hard and 2) worth enough points to make it worth it?
If you don't want to be attack by a high levelled team, here's some advice: don't accrue enough points total to be a juicy target. Everyone wins!
I didn't expect another answer from the likes of you. What do you even mean by 'not time consuming', having leveled 3*** heroes?? Oh I'm too lazy and chicken to fight my own 3*** pool, better grab a 1-2 star opponent for quick points. Thrice. You, sir, are not a worthy opponent. I will be finding you anyway later.0 -
Is this guy serious right now?
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locked wrote:jozier wrote:You're acting like a child. Do you know how difficult it is to find a match that is both 1) not time consuming or hard and 2) worth enough points to make it worth it?
If you don't want to be attack by a high levelled team, here's some advice: don't accrue enough points total to be a juicy target. Everyone wins!
I didn't expect another answer from the likes of you. What do you even mean by 'not time consuming', having leveled 3*** heroes?? Oh I'm too lazy and chicken to fight my own 3*** pool, better grab a 1-2 star opponent for quick points. Thrice. You, sir, are not a worthy opponent. I will be finding you anyway later.
Yeah good luck you whiny brat. "Wah wah I'm too weak to compete, take it easy on me."
Start skipping the seed teams if you think you should only fight the hardest possible matches.0 -
jozier wrote:locked wrote:jozier wrote:You're acting like a child. Do you know how difficult it is to find a match that is both 1) not time consuming or hard and 2) worth enough points to make it worth it?
If you don't want to be attack by a high levelled team, here's some advice: don't accrue enough points total to be a juicy target. Everyone wins!
I didn't expect another answer from the likes of you. What do you even mean by 'not time consuming', having leveled 3*** heroes?? Oh I'm too lazy and chicken to fight my own 3*** pool, better grab a 1-2 star opponent for quick points. Thrice. You, sir, are not a worthy opponent. I will be finding you anyway later.
Yeah good luck you whiny brat. "Wah wah I'm too weak to compete, take it easy on me."
Start skipping the seed teams if you think you should only fight the hardest possible matches.
+1
No one attack locked! He's coming for all of us
But seriously, I don't remember this guy. I didn't really attack anyone for under 15 points in this no holds barred. I'm in mmr hell right now so if I saw a team with 3 sub 60 characters that was worth more than 15 points, yes sorry I'm gonna hit them.
Don't like it? Boost up and hit the bully back, that's what I do when I get hit by a higher ranked opponent. It's the ultimate deterrent0 -
Spencer75 wrote:jozier wrote:locked wrote:jozier wrote:You're acting like a child. Do you know how difficult it is to find a match that is both 1) not time consuming or hard and 2) worth enough points to make it worth it?
If you don't want to be attack by a high levelled team, here's some advice: don't accrue enough points total to be a juicy target. Everyone wins!
I didn't expect another answer from the likes of you. What do you even mean by 'not time consuming', having leveled 3*** heroes?? Oh I'm too lazy and chicken to fight my own 3*** pool, better grab a 1-2 star opponent for quick points. Thrice. You, sir, are not a worthy opponent. I will be finding you anyway later.
Yeah good luck you whiny brat. "Wah wah I'm too weak to compete, take it easy on me."
Start skipping the seed teams if you think you should only fight the hardest possible matches.
+1
No one attack locked! He's coming for all of us
But seriously, I don't remember this guy. I didn't really attack anyone for under 15 points in this no holds barred. I'm in mmr hell right now so if I saw a team with 3 sub 60 characters that was worth more than 15 points, yes sorry I'm gonna hit them.
Don't like it? Boost up and hit the bully back, that's what I do when I get hit by a higher ranked opponent. It's the ultimate deterrent
Exactly. I only retaliate if they are worth usually about 28+ points. Sometimes only 30+. Otherwise you just start to lose points, I think 25 points is about what you get for an even fight.0 -
jozier wrote:Yeah good luck you whiny brat. "Wah wah I'm too weak to compete, take it easy on me."
Start skipping the seed teams if you think you should only fight the hardest possible matches.
And don't you pervert my words, you perv.
I know I am whining needlessly; already tire of it myself; it doesn't change the fact that it's kinda shameful for 115+ guy to attack 1-2 stars (obviously not a seed team). Oh MMR hell? Pity for you; maybe you should start LOSING, not winning against weaker people? That can help I am told.0 -
No, seriously, if all 3stars dudes find the game too hard and time-consuming for them, how did they even get so high in the first place? p2w much?0
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I'm sorry; I just remembered that you guys had all the glory of pre-nerf characters, a whole gallery of them. Finding it hard now? Hilarious. I take my leave now though; thanks for the tips and a good laugh.0
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Obviously they stepped on 1-2* teams to get this high in the first place.
Seriously though. In a perfect world, your rating would be an accurate determination of your team's strength. If you get paired with a team that's similarly rated, but one team is much stronger than the other, then that points to the ratings being incorrect. The only way to correct the ratings is for the stronger team to beat the weaker team.
Now, if you consider it unsporting or unkind or whatever to beat teams that are clearly no match for you, hey, who am I to tell you how to play the game. But remember that a) someone else IS going to do it, because the ratings are incorrect, and b) this is actually how most open competitions work. For instance, when the #1 ranked tennis player goes to the US Open, and gets paired with some journeyman dude in the first round, he doesn't say "well, I'm clearly better than this guy, so I'll just leave him alone". He hands him a beating and moves on. Eventually the better players are left playing each other.
Also worth mentioning that there are members of the forums who, as a courtesy, avoid hitting fellow forum members. Not sure how many people still practice this (I know I do, but I also get hit plenty by names I recognize), but worth keeping in mind when you interact with folks who might have the opportunity to hit you a bunch of times in the future.0 -
locked wrote:jozier wrote:Yeah good luck you whiny brat. "Wah wah I'm too weak to compete, take it easy on me."
Start skipping the seed teams if you think you should only fight the hardest possible matches.
And don't you pervert my words, you perv.
I know I am whining needlessly; already tire of it myself; it doesn't change the fact that it's kinda shameful for 115+ guy to attack 1-2 stars (obviously not a seed team). Oh MMR hell? Pity for you; maybe you should start LOSING, not winning against weaker people? That can help I am told.
If I see a couple different teams that are all worth 20 points to me I'm gonna hit the lowest rated one 10 times out of 10 (unless it's a forum goer that I recognize).
Don't like it? Get better, make yourself a less attractive target.
When I was starting out I grinded pretty high in some tournaments and got beat down by monster teams, I looked at it as the cost of doing business and didn't think twice about it.
You, on the other hand, take it to the forums and whine about it.0 -
mischiefmaker wrote:Obviously they stepped on 1-2* teams to get this high in the first place.
Seriously though. In a perfect world, your rating would be an accurate determination of your team's strength. If you get paired with a team that's similarly rated, but one team is much stronger than the other, then that points to the ratings being incorrect. The only way to correct the ratings is for the stronger team to beat the weaker team.
Now, if you consider it unsporting or unkind or whatever to beat teams that are clearly no match for you, hey, who am I to tell you how to play the game. But remember that a) someone else IS going to do it, because the ratings are incorrect, and b) this is actually how most open competitions work. For instance, when the #1 ranked tennis player goes to the US Open, and gets paired with some journeyman dude in the first round, he doesn't say "well, I'm clearly better than this guy, so I'll just leave him alone". He hands him a beating and moves on. Eventually the better players are left playing each other.
This is fine and dandy and I like your point actually. But does this take into account that there is no actual PvP? Only versus AI. So, I refuse to let the AI beat me offscreen even if my team is somewhat weaker and doesn't 'deserve' higher ratings, in your opinion. This is a match 3 game, not a mindless grinding-leveling game, at least that was my guess? Lol. You can still lose to a weaker team (offscreen, sure), and thank pasta for that. Now that I think about it.
I am a good enough player to beat AI-controlled teams a bit stronger than mine, say 1,5x stronger; and since I see most people being the same, adequate players, why can't I expect the same behavior from a lazy major with 100+ heroes? Every time I see such behavior as mentioned here (and it does NOT happen regularly, so obviously my own MMR is pretty adequate), it makes me cringe in disgust. There is a worthy opponent, always. I imagine even all 141 teams have enticing opposition in their own range.
You mentioned professional sports; well no heavy weight boxer fights a lightweight boxer; it would be extremely shameful for them to do so when 'gaining points'.
I actually have a suggestion to devs that no teams should ever be matched up if their cumulative levels differ, say, more than 25 levels for 1stars, more than 50 levels for 2stars, more than 75 levels for 3stars. The figures are just an example. Not sure about mixed teams, but I'm sure something could be worked out.0 -
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Spencer75 wrote:If I see a couple different teams that are all worth 20 points to me I'm gonna hit the lowest rated one 10 times out of 10 (unless it's a forum goer that I recognize).
Don't like it? Get better, make yourself a less attractive target.
Where's the logic in hitting the lowest rated team 10 times out of 10? Unless by lowest rated you mean the weakest?
Yeah yeah your logic for justifying your behavior is extremely boring; like I said I don't expect anything better from you. You obviously suppose there's a cycle of pain and injustice which you can't help but continue. Boring. You should lose matches to your equals to adjust your MMR, not that stupid twerking you are engaged in.0
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