If YOU were to make a game, would YOU care about difficulty?

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  • Unknown
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    it's kind of more of a rat wheel to provide some sort of feeling of accomplishment when your luck does beat the odds
  • Unknown
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    I'll apologize beforehand if this wasn't what you were implying, but....
    raisinbman wrote:
    Any game I design would be accessible so kids/old people/disabled folks could play it with ease.

    What the what? It's not accessible to those folks? How? I mean, maybe Evelyn is gifted by the MPQ Gods, but she plays perfectly fine and she's four, just as well as she plays My Talking Angela or Tap Titans or Stick Hero or any of the other mobile games she plays on her tablet/our phones.

    ====

    As for the topic at hand, if you mean 'If you were designing MPQ, would you care [...]', then I would lean toward no. I wouldn't concentrate on evolving difficulty, I would create sets of milestones and obstacles to overcome (harder nodes, different node types, different tiers of characters, etc etc etc).

    If we're genuinely talking about creating games in an overall sense, I'd say it depends on the game's genre. An FPS? No, probably not, I'd focus on having functional multiplayer content (both online and offline), over functional difficulty. If I'm making a traditional RPG, well, in that case, there's a pretty specific difficulty curve to follow, so I'd do that. Am I trying to make the next Dark Souls? Shooter Hell/Bullet Storm? Difficulty can mean a lot of things. Fire Emblem? Baroque? Lunar? Final Fantasy II?

    Point being, if you want to talk about difficulty, we have to talk about the different types of difficulty and why they fall into each type of game and why different types work and don't work. There are very few games that are difficult because of reasons other than what are called "artificial difficulty" (think Final Fantasy mega-bosses - it makes you feel like it's an accomplishment by slapping big numbers on a big dragon) or "manufactured difficultly" (think Fire Emblem stacking the deck from the get go with 10:1 battlefields - they pit you in situations that you are not in the odds of winning to begin with), and a lot of people even argue that games like Dark Souls are not "truly" difficult because the obstacle is simply learning mechanics and patterns, then the game is no longer difficult, but a matter of enacting that knowledge (and then there's the argument of whether or not that is "skill" or simply a battle of knowledge and/or reflexes - and applying that same argument to games like Street Fighter and Call of Duty).
    title is: If YOU were to make a game, would YOU care about difficulty?
  • firethorne
    firethorne Posts: 1,505 Chairperson of the Boards
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    I would only focus on difficulty as a consideration in PvE. For PvP, difficulty shouldn't be a focus. But, that does come with the caveat the PvP I'm talking about is a match against another player, like Hearthstone. Unfortunately for MPQ, neither "pure" PvP nor "pure" PvE truly exist. They are hybrids, often resulting in the worst of both worlds.

    In MPQ PvP, you will never fight a human. You fight an AI controlled team selected by a human. This is the biggest problem as it makes the most difficult things not actually playing, but timing when you play and when you buy shields so the computer won't lose your points. In my ideal PvP, the only time you would lose would be if you played a match and lost (to another human).

    For PvE, MQP has other problems. There, difficulty placing is completely dependent on other players. You can clear every node flawlessly, and still not place anywhere near the top if someone else is grinding. In my ideal pve, your result is in no way influenced by the actions of other players. To be fair, MPQ has a bit more of this these days, like ddq and gauntlet. But, I'd still like to see it become the majority of PvE.
  • Unknown
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    firethorne wrote:
    I would only focus on difficulty as a consideration in PvE. For PvP, difficulty shouldn't be a focus. But, that does come with the caveat the PvP I'm talking about is a match against another player, like Hearthstone. Unfortunately for MPQ, neither "pure" PvP nor "pure" PvE truly exist. They are hybrids, often resulting in the worst of both worlds.

    In MPQ PvP, you will never fight a human. You fight an AI controlled team selected by a human. This is the biggest problem as it makes the most difficult things not actually playing, but timing when you play and when you buy shields so the computer won't lose your points. In my ideal PvP, the only time you would lose would be if you played a match and lost (to another human).

    For PvE, MQP has other problems. There, difficulty placing is completely dependent on other players. You can clear every node flawlessly, and still not place anywhere near the top if someone else is grinding. In my ideal pve, your result is in no way influenced by the actions of other players. To be fair, MPQ has a bit more of this these days, like ddq and gauntlet. But, I'd still like to see it become the majority of PvE.

    This. So this.
    They absolutely got things right with making the Gauntlet more challenging with better rewards, and DDQ is an excellent example of how it should be for mid-level players. The Ultron events were also a good move in this vein, as well as the most recent Ant-Man introduction.
    So they're making some excellent choices now, but these are all limited/one-shot events. The problem remains that the primary events that are present every day and are the mainstay of play/rewards are still using the flawed system. Outside of these special events the 3* to 4* transitioner is at a disadvantage when they're pitted directly up against 2* to 3* transitioners who are fighting lower level opponents.
  • TLCstormz
    TLCstormz Posts: 1,668
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    Update :

    Losing my team of 94 Ares / Astonishing Wolverine / 2* Daken to 70 DocOck / 71 Rags / 74 Panther in DDQ........

    As usual, on the computers FIRST TURN, they got a whopping THREE back to back Match 5s. Well, actually, that's not really "whopping", since Moonstone / Rocket Launcher / Rocket Launcher got 4 on me back to back, last night. But, I digress.

    Panther ended up doing Battle Plan into DocOck Green strengthening the strikes into Rage Of The Panther. Then a Match 4 blue.

    Guess what? Mostly PINK left on the board. Yay. I make a pink match, and low and behold a green match 4 sits in wait for them. Blah blah blah, my team dies a fiery death, even after using a team up. I am now sitting around waiting for 3+ hours to use some of my best characters for ANY other game mode, out a team up, frustrated and disappointed, etc etc etc.

    Again......in what universe is that "fun"? Or fair or sensible or realistic or what a customer wants to experience on a consistent basis, when they boot up this game?
  • Phaserhawk
    Phaserhawk Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
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    I like difficulty when it involves the AI getting smarter. FPS' are a perfect example of bad difficulty. I'm okay with making the player weaker, ie you only need to get hit a few times to die, etc, but when it also involves making the enemies nigh invulnerable, I have a problem. Not to date myself, but when I play Golden-Eye for N64 it was a great game, but how they did difficulty was, you die on one shot, enemy takes a million, this I dislike.

    D3 sort of does this, instead of making a smarter AI to play against, they just ramp up the dmg and power of the enemy, I would rather character levels never go past what they would for a player, so 166, 270 etc., but you could categorize it as now with green easy, silver medium, Red insane, and it's not about just facing off against full strength enemies, but an AI that blocks your AP, or double casts skills like Luke Cage, or makes those match 5's instead of 4. I would rather play against a smart AI then be given a hand hatchet to chop down a red wood.
  • TLCstormz
    TLCstormz Posts: 1,668
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    My 134 Psylocke / 129 Cage / 94 Storm gets Unstoppable Crashed to death by a 86 Juggs / 87 Venom / 87 2*Daken. All because of cascades, regardless of the fact that I am doing everything in my power to clear green (and red) from the board. I didn't even get off ONE ability.

    Fun?
  • Der_Lex
    Der_Lex Posts: 1,035 Chairperson of the Boards
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    No, but bad luck happens in any game where chance is a factor. It's not fun, but neither is losing a game of Tetris because you're just not getting that one long block that you need to clear your lines, or losing a game of Magic the Gathering because you either draw too many lands on your turns, or none at all. It's annoying, but it happens, and doesn't say anything about the actual difficulty of the game. I personally think MPQ is still pretty low-difficulty unless you're either punching way above your weight class in PvP, or facing a particularly difficult node in PvE, especially with high personal scaling (the Carnage nodes in Venom or the Ultron/Loki/She-Hulk node in the last Gauntlet come to mind).

    Personally I'd rather have a game where I lose sometimes, no matter how frustrating those losses, than a game where I never lose at all. The latter would become really boring really quick.
  • Pylgrim
    Pylgrim Posts: 2,313 Chairperson of the Boards
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    TLCstormz wrote:
    Update :

    Losing my team of 94 Ares / Astonishing Wolverine / 2* Daken to 70 DocOck / 71 Rags / 74 Panther in DDQ........

    As usual, on the computers FIRST TURN, they got a whopping THREE back to back Match 5s. Well, actually, that's not really "whopping", since Moonstone / Rocket Launcher / Rocket Launcher got 4 on me back to back, last night. But, I digress.

    Panther ended up doing Battle Plan into DocOck Green strengthening the strikes into Rage Of The Panther. Then a Match 4 blue.

    Guess what? Mostly PINK left on the board. Yay. I make a pink match, and low and behold a green match 4 sits in wait for them. Blah blah blah, my team dies a fiery death, even after using a team up. I am now sitting around waiting for 3+ hours to use some of my best characters for ANY other game mode, out a team up, frustrated and disappointed, etc etc etc.

    Again......in what universe is that "fun"? Or fair or sensible or realistic or what a customer wants to experience on a consistent basis, when they boot up this game?

    I dunno... losing is almost always unfun, regardless of the game. Fun comes primordially from winning, and more fun is had if you previously lost and you get to feel as though you bested the challenge. Sure, this one experience you're talking about seems huge and devastating and game breaking. What you don't notice is that in the meantime you surely won dozens of other matches and had a good time out of it.
  • MarvelDestiny
    MarvelDestiny Posts: 198 Tile Toppler
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    babinro wrote:
    Generally speaking, I think one of the MAJOR failings in game design these days comes from a fear of providing the player options to customize their game experience.

    I think just about every game should be like Don't Starve, Civilization 5, or any EA Sports game. These games give players options to customize the game play rules and have tons of sliders for players to make the game mindlessly easy to practically impossible.

    That's my comment in general....these rules obviously can't apply to COMPETITIVE PVP games like MPQ because of obvious unfair reasons.

    The way I'd apply this philosophy to MPQ would be to offer a wider array of events for all player types. For example I'd run multiple DDQ style non-competitive events with set difficulty level PvE's. Have one event with most nodes ranging from level 5-50 for the 1* players, have another ranging from 30-75 for the 2* transitioner, have another ranging from 50-100 for the 2* established player and so on. All events would run simultaneously and have rewards suitable for that progression part of the game. These rewards would naturally be less enticing than those in truly competitive events like traditional pvp and pve's but they'd still exist for those who just want to relax and use different characters.
    I understand where you are coming from babinro. I agree failing to provide players with the means to customize their experience is a line of thinking that has boxed in F2P game developers. It is possible to give players the option without breaking the model. For example, MPQ could provide a difficulty slider that adjusts not just the difficulty of the game but the reward structure as well. Because changing difficulty levels in-season could be problematic, just limit it to off season. D3 could even use it to generate income by costing any change in difficulty. Under this system players can stay in candyland as long as they want and when they want to grab better rewards/character tiers and be more competitive they increase the level or vice-versa if they find they've wandered into deeper waters than they are prepared for.

    This addresses the effort-reward structure but would unfortunately break the alliance system. So some tweaking would need to be made. But this system does not break (and may even enhance) the current game model.