Is it really hard to make new PVE's?

Unknown · July 2015

Note: I'm not trying to be sarcastic or snarky here. I'm actually asking a legit question....

Why are we so limited in PVE stories? Why does it take several months just to issue a new one? Looking at it from the outside, it's just a dozen nodes, some still frame dialogue, and prize structure. Why can't these be churned out like one a week? Why are we caught in the loop of repeating the same 3 or 4 storylines?

Again, I'm not trying to be a jerk with that question, it just strikes me as something that would be super easy to whip together compared to new characters or animations for moves.

fmftint · July 2015

It's not necessarily hard, all story elements and dialogue have to be approved by Marvel, but the biggest reason they've given is, it doesn't make them any $

GuntherBlobel · July 2015

My guess, and this is only my guess, is that it is harder because Marvel is protective of their property.

Every line of dialogue and "plot point" might undergo a level of scrutiny and approval that makes Demiurge more interested in developing other content.

Linkster79 · July 2015

Must be extremely hard, what with Marvels very limited history and various back stories /sarcasm

How PvE doesn't earn money is beyond me. New characters are released during story events and once a whale sees a new character they buy health packs to ensure top finish, a roster slot to place it and then the covers once the event is finished so they can level it. Surely it is in their best interest to lavish a bit more time on story events.

Linkster79 · July 2015

GuntherBlobel wrote:

My guess, and this is only my guess, is that it is harder because Marvel is protective of their property.

Every line of dialogue and "plot point" might undergo a level of scrutiny and approval that makes Demiurge more interested in developing other content.

A quick story board faxed to their contact at Marvel HQ should suffice. Would take an artist a couple of days at most to knock up.

Unknown · July 2015

fmftint wrote:

It's not necessarily hard, all story elements and dialogue have to be approved by Marvel, but the biggest reason they've given is, it doesn't make them any $

This.

At this point, I'd just do like the Lego games and take dialogue/voice clips from movies and call it a day.

But League of Legends Business model will league of legends business model.

Pinko_McFly · July 2015

Their argument that it doesn't make money seems very short-sighted to me. Putting out new storylines and modes works to keep players interested and invested in the game. I'm sure plenty of players have quit due to the boredom and repetition that takes place an average of every 3 out of 4 weeks. New players are going to start to see content repeating in their first 2 months, wouldn't a longer time frame keep these players from looking at the game and realizing that's it.
I think enemy of the state was the last new storyline and that came out in December. Ddq and ultron were great additions but have no storyline at all. And of they are going to tote ant man as adding their new content within the past 3 months, that's just pathetic.
There are so many stories out there to choose from and I doubt marvel is as over bearing as they would like you to believe. Sure, upcoming movie plots may be off limits, but old story lines or current comic events like Secret Wars should fit right into the game and be great cross promotion.

Unknown · July 2015

GuntherBlobel wrote:

My guess, and this is only my guess, is that it is harder because Marvel is protective of their property.

Every line of dialogue and "plot point" might undergo a level of scrutiny and approval that makes Demiurge more interested in developing other content.

*cough*

No line of dialogue undergoes any level of scrutiny. They recorded a seven-year-old playing with action figures, and they published the transcript.

notamutant · July 2015

Vertigozooropa wrote:

GuntherBlobel wrote:

My guess, and this is only my guess, is that it is harder because Marvel is protective of their property.

Every line of dialogue and "plot point" might undergo a level of scrutiny and approval that makes Demiurge more interested in developing other content.

*cough*

No line of dialogue undergoes any level of scrutiny. They recorded a seven-year-old playing with action figures, and they published the transcript.

As someone who tried to act out the stories for youtube, I can confirm I felt like a 7 year old.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahibjvS ... 8NPbr7jB1D

Unknown · July 2015

notamutant wrote:

Vertigozooropa wrote:

GuntherBlobel wrote:

My guess, and this is only my guess, is that it is harder because Marvel is protective of their property.

Every line of dialogue and "plot point" might undergo a level of scrutiny and approval that makes Demiurge more interested in developing other content.

*cough*

No line of dialogue undergoes any level of scrutiny. They recorded a seven-year-old playing with action figures, and they published the transcript.

As someone who tried to act out the stories for youtube, I can confirm I felt like a 7 year old.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahibjvS ... 8NPbr7jB1D

I'd be happy if a 7 year old did the writing if we got more writing....

Dev: "Why are iron man and hawkeye fighting?"

Kid: "Iron Man said arrows are dumb"

Lidolas · July 2015

notamutant wrote:

Vertigozooropa wrote:

GuntherBlobel wrote:

My guess, and this is only my guess, is that it is harder because Marvel is protective of their property.

Every line of dialogue and "plot point" might undergo a level of scrutiny and approval that makes Demiurge more interested in developing other content.

*cough*

No line of dialogue undergoes any level of scrutiny. They recorded a seven-year-old playing with action figures, and they published the transcript.

As someone who tried to act out the stories for youtube, I can confirm I felt like a 7 year old.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahibjvS ... 8NPbr7jB1D

Mind sharing some of that

?

GothicKratos · July 2015

If it were me balancing resources to the following things;

* Spending resources (time, money, etc) to code "new" PvE content, that is for all intent-and-purposes is not new at all, it's just some pictures and some node layouts. Spending resources (time, money etc) create art for said "new" PvE content.

* Fixing bugs, creating actual new types of PvP/PvE, creating new characters, balancing characters and mechanics, etc.

Personally, I'm going to pick number two 99.9% of the time.

El Satanno · July 2015

GothicKratos wrote:

If it were me balancing resources to the following things;

* Spending resources (time, money, etc) to code "new" PvE content, that is for all intent-and-purposes is not new at all, it's just some pictures and some node layouts. Spending resources (time, money etc) create art for said "new" PvE content.

* Fixing bugs, creating actual new types of PvP/PvE, creating new characters, balancing characters and mechanics, etc.

Personally, I'm going to pick number two 99.9% of the time.

Okay, except that for what we've seen, it's only the third part of Number Two there that gets any regular attention.

Bugs? Once a month, at most.
New types of PvP? Umm...never?
New types of PvE? Isn't that what the OP is about to begin with?
Creating new characters, check!
Balancing characters and mechanics? Again, once a month at most...and being very generous besides. And while I'm banging on, let's not forget that the last time anyone but the devs were happy about these "balance passes" was Magneto.

So I guess your choice of Number Two boils down to mostly Creating New Characters and...etc. I'm thinking about a different "number two" here...

Unknown · July 2015

this post is spam plz ignore it I will add it to my other post

GothicKratos · July 2015

El Satanno wrote:

GothicKratos wrote:

If it were me balancing resources to the following things;

* Spending resources (time, money, etc) to code "new" PvE content, that is for all intent-and-purposes is not new at all, it's just some pictures and some node layouts. Spending resources (time, money etc) create art for said "new" PvE content.

* Fixing bugs, creating actual new types of PvP/PvE, creating new characters, balancing characters and mechanics, etc.

Personally, I'm going to pick number two 99.9% of the time.

Okay, except that for what we've seen, it's only the third part of Number Two there that gets any regular attention.

Bugs? Once a month, at most.
New types of PvP? Umm...never?
New types of PvE? Isn't that what the OP is about to begin with?
Creating new characters, check!
Balancing characters and mechanics? Again, once a month at most...and being very generous besides. And while I'm banging on, let's not forget that the last time anyone but the devs were happy about these "balance passes" was Magneto.

So I guess your choice of Number Two boils down to mostly Creating New Characters and...etc. I'm thinking about a different "number two" here...

Have you ever tried to debug complex code? It's not as easy as checking a box and unchecking it. It takes manhours. You have to fix the bug, then you have to make sure your fix doesn't break other things, then you need to make sure you've removed all occurrences of the bug, and if you haven't, have fun doing that all again! You better pray your next fix doesn't unravel your previous work too!

Now, let's add in that you need to debug for Android and Apple, and the literal hundreds of forks in those platforms.

Now, then, you have to pass the information to the publisher, to Marvel, to Apple, to Google for approval.

Dismiss them all you want, but there's a reason they've maintained Marvel Puzzle Quest for almost two years now, despite dozens of Apocalypse Now rumbling chants, and not programming the next Here for a Month and Then Gone Again Quest.

Also, as a final note, the OP did not ask about new PvE types (i.e. Ultron, Gauntlet), they were asking about PvE stories (i.e. Enemy of the State), and my post was simply stating that it's probably not "hard", in that it's not difficult, but simply there are better places to put that time and effort.

El Satanno · July 2015

GothicKratos wrote:

Have you ever tried to debug complex code? It's not as easy as checking a box and unchecking it. It takes manhours. You have to fix the bug, then you have to make sure your fix doesn't break other things, then you need to make sure you've removed all occurrences of the bug, and if you haven't, have fun doing that all again! You better pray your next fix doesn't unravel your previous work too!

Now, let's add in that you need to debug for Android and Apple, and the literal hundreds of forks in those platforms.

Now, then, you have to pass the information to the publisher, to Marvel, to Apple, to Google for approval.

Dismiss them all you want, but there's a reason they've maintained Marvel Puzzle Quest for almost two years now, despite dozens of Apocalypse Now rumbling chants, and not programming the next Here for a Month and Then Gone Again Quest.

Also, as a final note, the OP did not ask about new PvE types (i.e. Ultron, Gauntlet), they were asking about PvE stories (i.e. Enemy of the State), and my post was simply stating that it's probably not "hard", in that it's not difficult, but simply there are better places to put that time and effort.

I appreciate the angle you're coming from, but you've neatly side-stepped the thrust of my argument. I'm quite sure debugging is time-consuming work, and that's fine. But we don't need to go much further back than the recent Scarlet Witch debacle to see how timely some of these "bug fixes" are. (On a side note: I'm on your side, Phaserhawk!) But you know, it doesn't even matter! It's their job to do that. It's also their job to provide for their customers. At least, if they want to keep it being their job. In all the time I've played the game and visited this forum, one consistent thing that has been requested is new content. It's a common refrain as well to hear something to the tune of "I don't care if it's just 10 panels of dialogue and a map" as well.

But let's focus on this concept of time vs. energy. A while back, you actually asked us collectively if we wanted contests. I, along with several others, proposed a Build Your Own PvE. I daresay we could put the lie to the demands such an endeavor would entail, administrative tape notwithstanding. It's not like all the assets aren't already there. Hell, you don't even need new art! Most of the play areas we run through are just maps or blueprints or something else neutral.

Unknown · July 2015

I think enemy of the state was the last new storyline and that came out in December. Ddq and ultron were great additions but have no storyline at all. And of they are going to tote ant man as adding their new content within the past 3 months

Pinko_McFly · July 2015

My main issue with GK defense of the developers is that it does not require the programmers ( who should be doing the code debugging ) to do much at all. New cutscenes and dialog, new map art, that should all be designers. I am a programmer and I can write functionality for a website, but if the client wants it to look a certain way, I go to the designer. In this game, it seems that the designers are in charge of the art, matchups and most importantly to them, making new characters. They have shown that they do have a separation between the design and developer roles, so the issue of new pve storylines rests soley on the designers, not the developers. And yes code can be complex, but from a programming stand point a new pve node should consist of setting character a to this, b to that and c to the third option. If its more complex than that for the developers, then they need to reevaluate their code design.
As a programmer, I respect that code can be complex, and debugging is a pain, and I also no that 9 times out of 10 I have an idea of what part of my code could be causing the problem. In regards to the OP's complaint, I see it as directed at the design team and defending the development team is just a misdirection to the argument.

wymtime · July 2015

Kirestananderson01 wrote:

I think enemy of the state was the last new storyline and that came out in December. Ddq and ultron were great additions but have no storyline at all. And of they are going to tote ant man as adding their new content within the past 3 months

They will defiantly count Antman. This year new PVE content has to have been on the back burner. They have been more focused on new characters, movie tie ins, balancing characters (especially PVP). Marvel is looking to leverage existing games more for movie promotions so I would expect something for F4. After F4 and a couple more characters they will then get ready for anniversary week, and then hopefully have a new story out by the end of the year.

Oh they have also rebalanced PVE with no community scaling sub length, and have remodeled some of the nodes. As much as I used to read the PVE story the reality is when I first playered enemy of the state I skipped so much of the dialogue because that is what I normally do. It is cheaper and easier to change the opponents in the nodes than it is to crest new PVE, and new characters as prizes have more retain able value. As a prize a new 3* (if good) can be run as a prize 3-4 times and players will be excited. New PVE loses major value after the first run. The rewards drive more engagement than the PVE content.
I am all for new for new content, I am just not holding my breath.

Unknown · July 2015

El Satanno wrote:

GothicKratos wrote:

If it were me balancing resources to the following things;

* Spending resources (time, money, etc) to code "new" PvE content, that is for all intent-and-purposes is not new at all, it's just some pictures and some node layouts. Spending resources (time, money etc) create art for said "new" PvE content.

* Fixing bugs, creating actual new types of PvP/PvE, creating new characters, balancing characters and mechanics, etc.

Personally, I'm going to pick number two 99.9% of the time.

Okay, except that for what we've seen, it's only the third part of Number Two there that gets any regular attention.

Bugs? Once a month, at most.
New types of PvP? Umm...never?
New types of PvE? Isn't that what the OP is about to begin with?
Creating new characters, check!
Balancing characters and mechanics? Again, once a month at most...and being very generous besides. And while I'm banging on, let's not forget that the last time anyone but the devs were happy about these "balance passes" was Magneto.

So I guess your choice of Number Two boils down to mostly Creating New Characters and...etc. I'm thinking about a different "number two" here...

preach!

Kirestananderson01 wrote:

I think enemy of the state was the last new storyline and that came out in December. Ddq and ultron were great additions but have no storyline at all. And of they are going to tote ant man as adding their new content within the past 3 months

growth industry was the last story content we got *kappa*

Pinko McFly wrote:

My main issue with GK defense of the developers is that it does not require the programmers ( who should be doing the code debugging ) to do much at all. New cutscenes and dialog, new map art, that should all be designers. I am a programmer and I can write functionality for a website, but if the client wants it to look a certain way, I go to the designer. In this game, it seems that the designers are in charge of the art, matchups and most importantly to them, making new characters. They have shown that they do have a separation between the design and developer roles, so the issue of new pve storylines rests soley on the designers, not the developers. And yes code can be complex, but from a programming stand point a new pve node should consist of setting character a to this, b to that and c to the third option. If its more complex than that for the developers, then they need to reevaluate their code design.
As a programmer, I respect that code can be complex, and debugging is a pain, and I also no that 9 times out of 10 I have an idea of what part of my code could be causing the problem. In regards to the OP's complaint, I see it as directed at the design team and defending the development team is just a misdirection to the argument.

preach!!!!

if anything, it's alot like my job where your plate is so full that silly things like story content get pushed back forever and ever until they become the elephant in the room

GothicKratos · July 2015

raisinbman wrote:

if anything, it's alot like my job where your plate is so full that silly things like story content get pushed back forever and ever until they become the elephant in the room

I hate to say it, but I agree, that's actually my entire point. They have x amount of manhours to assign to different topics and figure out what's most important - previously discussed as "awesomeness-per-person-per-day" - and like I originally said, if it were me, "Quality of Life" (bug fixes, balancing, etc) changes are always going to be the most important things to focus.

That's all I'm saying. Yes, designers do art props, but if my options are make actually new characters and make art props for those or make a new PvE skin and make art props for that....I'm going new characters most of the time. Yes, programmers debug code, but they also have to program new character abilities, fix existing bugs, etc etc etc. That's disregarding the size of the team, which I'm sure is tiny, and in so probably share a lot of responsibilities as it is.

I'm not saying that a new PvE story wouldn't be cool. It would. I'm saying, in my opinion, it's probably the last priority.

[EDIT]:

El Satanno wrote:

But we don't need to go much further back than the recent Scarlet Witch debacle to see how timely some of these "bug fixes" are.

Not all bugs are created equally. You can't compare something that was giving too much AP, which was probably a numbers problem and a half second fix, and fixing, say, that wonderful Ares Sunder bug.

Is it really hard to make new PVE's?

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