Theory on 4*'s

Merrick

My theory for why they have been releasing so many 4* characters recently.

Deadpool daily has been a hit. This feature has been the greatest thing the game designer has done. But it has probably also reduced HP spent on 3* characters. Reduced income is bad. Removing DPD would cause a huge uproar. So, most new characters are being made 4* characters regardless of their actual relative strength.

JVReal

Community uproar has never stopped them from doing what they feel is in the best interest of the game. If they feel DDQ is ruining the game, they will remove it (but it isn't, it's improving the game paving a way for people to be able to feel comfortable with the 4* transition now that the 3* transition is clearly marked and available).

4* is inevitable and was their plan that they announced a long time ago. I have no doubt that we will maybe see 5* next year and a half or so, and hopefully they think through the process so that each level is still relevant and has it's place in the game.

*'s indicate rarity, not power, so I think they should be difficult to achieve.

Enoc99

My main worry is that, since they haven't released a new 3* in a while, it might be a while before we see more 3* characters...

Vhailorx

Ddq is the solution, not the symptom. By last December, the best had maxed out 3*land. More new characters didn't help because they weren't materially better than the existing top dogs (lazy thor, hood, cmags, bp etc). Or rather, if they were better, then it meant power creep which the devs also want to avoid.

The solution is a new tier of play. I remember making posts in Nov. And dec. Speculating that 4* land was coming soon and 5*s would be introduced in 2015. 4*s have been an obvious necessity for months.

But if top tier play is 4*s, then the devs can't ask new players to grind for months just to make a 3* roster. So increasing the speed of 3* transition became necessary. Enter ddq. . .

simonsez

Merrick wrote:

My theory for why they have been releasing so many 4* characters recently.

My theory is too many damn movie tie-ins.

optimus2861

Vhailorx wrote:

Ddq is the solution, not the symptom. By last December, the best had maxed out 3*land. More new characters didn't help because they weren't materially better than the existing top dogs (lazy thor, hood, cmags, bp etc). Or rather, if they were better, then it meant power creep which the devs also want to avoid.

The solution is a new tier of play. I remember making posts in Nov. And dec. Speculating that 4* land was coming soon and 5*s would be introduced in 2015.

I think those bolded statements are contradictory. If the devs don't want power creep, they dare not tread into 5* land. Any 5* tier would effectively have to curb-stomp the 3* tier, or else the current 4* players would grumble that the 5* aren't worth the effort. And if the 3* tier becomes 5* cannon fodder ... game over. 3* players start leaving in droves, and that's still the bulk of the player base, I imagine.

If D3 ever does create a 5* character, it would probably be quitting time for me. It's a long enough process to get to 3*. Then an even longer & harder one to contemplate moving to 4*. But 5*? No way. No freaking way unless those players who want to chase & use them can have their own brackets.

hex706f726368

I keep seeing this 5* speculation and I just don't get it.

Even with the recent increase in availability of 4* covers, there is still a significant length of time to collect 13 covers outside of just spending pure $$$. How rare would a 5* cover be? And how expensive? And how much ISO to level?

At some point, progression in this game (in the form of cover collection) reaches an unfeasible amount of dedication from the player base. Based on how much is required for 4*'s, 5* would seem to exceed that limit for me personally. I guess that's why I'm having a hard time imagining the existence of such a mythical creature outside boss battles like Ultron Prime.

GrimSkald

simonsez wrote:

Merrick wrote:

My theory for why they have been releasing so many 4* characters recently.

My theory is too many damn movie tie-ins.

This. They've shown in the past that they really don't alter their release schedule when they have "necessary" characters to introduce. That is to say they have a planned release schedule, and if circumstances arise that they need to introduce a differerent character they add them to the schedule, not change it.

I think Carnage was introduced so they could roll out the new Venom: Heroic. I think the Thing was the scheduled 4*, and I think that they introduced Ant-Man to tie in to the new movie. I don't read anything more into it than bad timing.

FierceKiwi

GrimSkald wrote:

simonsez wrote:

Merrick wrote:

My theory for why they have been releasing so many 4* characters recently.

My theory is too many damn movie tie-ins.

This. They've shown in the past that they really don't alter their release schedule when they have "necessary" characters to introduce. That is to say they have a planned release schedule, and if circumstances arise that they need to introduce a differerent character they add them to the schedule, not change it.

I think Carnage was introduced so they could roll out the new Venom: Heroic. I think the Thing was the scheduled 4*, and I think that they introduced Ant-Man to tie in to the new movie. I don't read anything more into it than bad timing.

Based on the characters I can see not released yet you probably shouldn't expect 4* to slow down soon.

Vhailorx

optimus2861 wrote:

Vhailorx wrote:

Ddq is the solution, not the symptom. By last December, the best had maxed out 3*land. More new characters didn't help because they weren't materially better than the existing top dogs (lazy thor, hood, cmags, bp etc). Or rather, if they were better, then it meant power creep which the devs also want to avoid.

The solution is a new tier of play. I remember making posts in Nov. And dec. Speculating that 4* land was coming soon and 5*s would be introduced in 2015.

I think those bolded statements are contradictory. If the devs don't want power creep, they dare not tread into 5* land. Any 5* tier would effectively have to curb-stomp the 3* tier, or else the current 4* players would grumble that the 5* aren't worth the effort. And if the 3* tier becomes 5* cannon fodder ... game over. 3* players start leaving in droves, and that's still the bulk of the player base, I imagine.

If D3 ever does create a 5* character, it would probably be quitting time for me. It's a long enough process to get to 3*. Then an even longer & harder one to contemplate moving to 4*. But 5*? No way. No freaking way unless those players who want to chase & use them can have their own brackets.

I disagree. Power creep is a problem within tiers, but not nearly so much between tiers. Just look at punisher and pyslocke. They aren't bad characters per se, but they just a bit outclassed by the better 3*s. Why ever use psylocke and punisher when many other 3*s are just as easy to acquire, cover the same colors, and are much, much better? It's not nearly so much of a problem when a 4* outclasses a 3* because you can't acquire a 4* the same way you get 3*s. higher tier characters do obsolete the lower tier characters, but they are also harder to acquire, which helps keep the game balanced, and also keeps players invested.

So the problem facing Demiurge around the new year was the that the 3* tier was basically full. There were more than enough good 3*s to deal with just about any situation or color combination. Accordingly, veterans with full 3* rosters didn't feel terribly pressed to chase after most new 3*s (who really cared much about mystique or squirrel girl?). The only exception were 3*s that sort of broke the 3* meta. cage, cyclops, and iron fist are all awesome, but they are actually a bit too awesome. no one would ever use mostorm or pyslocke when they could go with cage or cyclops instead (That's part of why demiurge did the health shift, but that that's a different story). The bottom line is that the only way to keep veterans interested was to release better characters. And the only way to do that without breaking the meta and ending roster diversity was to make the better characters a different tier of play. That's why demiurge decided to turn 4*s from cute trophy characters into an actual final tier of play (the game had 3 4* characters on its one year anniversary, with a 4th just introduced. Now, at 20ish months, there are what, 12 4*s, 15?).

But at the same time, you can't ask new players to grind for months just to get a second-class 3* roster, so the 3* transition needed to sped up significantly (and that's why ddq was introduced).

So many veterans who are bored with the 3* grind are reinvesting in the game for 4*s. That's great, it extends the life of the game. But for super whales like colog, 4* land is probably going to start getting crowded quite soon. And once a substantial portion of the veteran population has deep 4* rosters, demiurge will have the same problem in 4* land that existed in 3* land at the end of 2014.

The solution then will be the same as last time: a new tier of play! so I would still expect a few 5* trophy characters to be released sometime in 2015 (to be honest, I kinda thought it would be a tie-in with Avengers 2, so they are behind my schedule), and then a full-on transition to 5* play in 2016.

Unknown

oooor it could be because they expanded ways to get 4* and need to flesh out 4* land viewtopic.php?f=7&t=31292

Unknown

They should remove the level restrictions on characters. Then the stars would only mean how rare it is to get a character. Harder to get characters would have more powerful abilities, but at least you can level 1* jugs to 270 if you please.

Unknown

sagapo wrote:

They should remove the level restrictions on characters. Then the stars would only mean how rare it is to get a character. Harder to get characters would have more powerful abilities, but at least you can level 1* jugs to 270 if you please.

You want to fight a level 270 Jugg?

TxMoose

sagapo wrote:

They should remove the level restrictions on characters. Then the stars would only mean how rare it is to get a character. Harder to get characters would have more powerful abilities, but at least you can level 1* jugs to 270 if you please.

yeah - level 270 jugs and ares and obw - i'll pass on that one. hell fist too - ouch.

puppychow

JVReal wrote:

I have no doubt that we will maybe see 5* next year and a half or so, and hopefully they think through the process so that each level is still relevant and has it's place in the game.

I expect to see Galactus, Apocalypse and others as 5 releases next year or so as well.

optimus2861

Vhailorx wrote:

I disagree. Power creep is a problem within tiers, but not nearly so much between tiers.

Only because they nerfed Thor & XForce. Those two dominated PvP for a long time. And you didn't really address my point, that the 5* by definition will have to curb-stomp the 3* players in PVP. At that point, the 3* crowd may as well pack up & leave PVP for good.

PVE might be a different story due to scaling, but still, what would be the point in investing in the 'core' roster of the game if you can only reasonably compete in half of it?

So many veterans who are bored with the 3* grind are reinvesting in the game for 4*s. That's great, it extends the life of the game. But for super whales like colog, 4* land is probably going to start getting crowded quite soon. And once a substantial portion of the veteran population has deep 4* rosters, demiurge will have the same problem in 4* land that existed in 3* land at the end of 2014.

The solution then will be the same as last time: a new tier of play!

The 5* tier, if it ever comes to pass, will effectively be the signal to new players to not even bother to start playing. The veterans will utterly 'lap the field' at that point. It'll be outright impossible for new players to compete without whaling up, big-time, and you'd have to think many at that point just wouldn't bother. They'd go find other games where they wouldn't be starting so hopelessly behind.

That's why I said 'separate brackets'. If you want 5* in the game, fine. Don't throw the 2* / 3* players into the same PVP or even PVE brackets as those players. They'll simply get crushed and discouraged. Let the 4* -> 5* players have their own veteran brackets where they compete with each other, and the new / transitioning players stay in the 'classic' brackets where they can continue to compete for the prizes that they need with players at their level.

Xenoberyll

What makes people think the number of stars have anything to do with the power level of the characters in the comic books?

JVReal

Xenoberyll wrote:

What makes people think the number of stars have anything to do with the power level of the characters in the comic books?

It shouldn't, but in games like this, people expect it... even when it doesn't make sense. In the game I played before this... Transformers Legends... they had Human characters that could wipe the floor with actual Transformers... because they decided to make a level 7 or 8 card of the character. In what universe would a human blow away Unicron? In Transformers Power Creep... and that's why they don't exist anymore.

Devil Dino is a perfect example of rarity... what 4* or 5* is, rare. You only get it once a year and it isn't part of your normal drops. You have to work at it, and save up for a while. It's not rare when everyone has them.

wingX

If they going to release only 4* in the future and not releseing any more 3* or decrease the freqency of releasing of 3*, I think it will be great if they at least release the 2 groups of colour combination that doesn't exisitng in 3*, which are and -

Vhailorx

optimus2861 wrote:

Vhailorx wrote:

I disagree. Power creep is a problem within tiers, but not nearly so much between tiers.

Only because they nerfed Thor & XForce. Those two dominated PvP for a long time. And you didn't really address my point, that the 5* by definition will have to curb-stomp the 3* players in PVP. At that point, the 3* crowd may as well pack up & leave PVP for good.

PVE might be a different story due to scaling, but still, what would be the point in investing in the 'core' roster of the game if you can only reasonably compete in half of it?

So many veterans who are bored with the 3* grind are reinvesting in the game for 4*s. That's great, it extends the life of the game. But for super whales like colog, 4* land is probably going to start getting crowded quite soon. And once a substantial portion of the veteran population has deep 4* rosters, demiurge will have the same problem in 4* land that existed in 3* land at the end of 2014.

The solution then will be the same as last time: a new tier of play!

The 5* tier, if it ever comes to pass, will effectively be the signal to new players to not even bother to start playing. The veterans will utterly 'lap the field' at that point. It'll be outright impossible for new players to compete without whaling up, big-time, and you'd have to think many at that point just wouldn't bother. They'd go find other games where they wouldn't be starting so hopelessly behind.

That's why I said 'separate brackets'. If you want 5* in the game, fine. Don't throw the 2* / 3* players into the same PVP or even PVE brackets as those players. They'll simply get crushed and discouraged. Let the 4* -> 5* players have their own veteran brackets where they compete with each other, and the new / transitioning players stay in the 'classic' brackets where they can continue to compete for the prizes that they need with players at their level.

You assume that 5* land would arrive without any chm
Changes to 3* and 4* land. You are correct that introducing tons of new 5*s that dominate 3*s would invalidate 3* play. That's what happened with old thorverine.

But that's not a problem if 3*s become easier to get. For example, 3* play demolishes 2* play, but no one cares because 2* covers are pretty easy to get and the 3* transition is much much faster than it used to be. If/when 4* play becomes the endgame and 5*s are introduced as new trophies, 3* covers will become even easier to get, and the prologue will probably be tweaked to provide even more 2*s all to solve your problem.

And it's not so much that I want 5*s in the game, I just think that it is an inevitable problem with all mom-style games. There is a reason that the level cap in wow keeps going up. . .

optimus2861

Vhailorx wrote:

But that's not a problem if 3*s become easier to get. For example, 3* play demolishes 2* play, but no one cares because 2* covers are pretty easy to get and the 3* transition is much much faster than it used to be.

Don't mistake "much faster" with "fast". I'm on day 240. I still have zero 13-cover 3* characters, and that's in an environment where 4* players don't quite obliterate 3*.

Let's say in your hypothetical 5* world, you can cut that down to 180 days, where you can expect to have 3-6 13-cover 3* (it would still take a new event structure of some kind to do this). Congrats, the new player now has a tiny roster that can barely start to scratch the 4* surface, and still get obliterated by 5*, and it only took six months.

It's just not reasonable.

And it's not so much that I want 5*s in the game, I just think that it is an inevitable problem with all mom-style games. There is a reason that the level cap in wow keeps going up. . .

Someone mentioned Transformers: Legends upstream, so I'll relate one little anecdote. The only way that Mobage could keep whales interested in that game (which underneath the TF name, was a piece of garbage, really), was to keep turning card statistics up & up & up. Eventually they released a card with a defense stat so high (Metroplex, I think) that it broke their damage formulas. If you attacked the card, you did negative damage to it, meaning you actually healed it.

The structure of the game was never intended to have card stats go that high.

Mobage did fix that bug, then not long after threw all caution to the wind and obliterated their original 4* / 5* model. I think they were up to 8* or something ridiculous like that the last time I peeked at their wikia. They stopped developing new content for the game some months ago, I think. They just rerun old events all the time with new cards pumped into them (sound familiar?).

Much like TF:L with super-high card stats and finally 5+ stars, I feel the structure of MPQ is not and never has been intended to have a 5* tier. The game will start to utterly break down, and become very hostile to new players.

Anyway, it's all hypothetical at this point, so I'll stop ranting on this. For now