Community Scaling is harming the game
Comments
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I'm not playing MPQ much anymore aside from DDQ, but it was nice to have CS turned off for a bit.
DBC0 -
I would have to disagree this is a game design flaw. People in different translation are all playing for the same rewards. New play prologue for mostly 1Arphaxad wrote:Dauthi wrote:Arphaxad wrote:What will it take to convince the developers to turn off community scaling for good? As a newer player, almost 5 months into the game, I get disheartened every time I play a series and see community scaling pushing nodes out of reach within minutes of opening them.
As a veteran 4* player, I can play those nodes. That means that I have a higher chance to get a 4* I need, vs a 5 month player who doesn't need it. This isn't the correct way to rewards players?
I get disheartened when new players take rewards I need, when they would be just as happy with a 3* or an older 4*...
This is why many veterans have quit PVE. It's not worth it not because of community scaling, but because they have to compete with every player despite having an enormous amount of time invested in this game.
This is the elitist attitude that kills many MMOs. First, none of us NEED any of the covers, we want them. Secondly, new players want 4* covers as much, if not more, than veteran players, and have as much right to earn them as anyone else.
How are new players supposed to progress and become veterans if not given the chance to earn the covers?
I have played many MMOs and have been on the elite side of the scale. I never backed the idea that allowing new players to catch up was a bad thing for the game. The devs know you need new players to grow the game, that is why they are looking at turning off community scaling. I only hope the majority opinion of those on this poll shows them they are on the right track and turn it off completely soon.
and some 2 . Once you get some 2 play Pve and some PvP to finish off 2 . Then start covering 3 s with help from DDQ. Then rinse and repeat until 3 are good enough to pass 1000 in PvP to cover 4 . The last 3 transition requires to play for the same thing. Instead of their own area to farm covers. 0 -
On/Off doesn't really matter, if you're a T10 player it's all pretty much the same. Competition is tight either way0
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From what i understand of this, whenever people beat a node, it increases in difficulty? So basically:
Take a walk --> Game punishes you by increasing your nodes by X lvls because people somewhere in the world beat it.
Sleep --> Game punishes you by increasing your nodes by X lvls because other people beat it.
Do anything outside of MPQ --> Game punishes you by increasing your nodes by X lvls because other people beat it.
Who thought of this system?0 -
fmftint wrote:On/Off doesn't really matter, if you're a T10 player it's all pretty much the same. Competition is tight either way
This is true for the top 20ish really. They either grind out easier nodes a lot, or hard nodes less than the easier ones. Perhaps easier nodes would be better for them since it would be less of a **** shoot if you wipe on the hard nodes. In any case, that is a very small percentage of players.Lanko8 wrote:From what i understand of this, whenever people beat a node, it increases in difficulty? So basically:
Take a walk --> Game punishes you by increasing your nodes by X lvls because people somewhere in the world beat it.
Sleep --> Game punishes you by increasing your nodes by X lvls because other people beat it.
Do anything outside of MPQ --> Game punishes you by increasing your nodes by X lvls because other people beat it.
Who thought of this system?
The system was created to make the difficulty of a node appropriate. So if the devs create a node that is too hard and lots of people die, it will actually lower the level to an average. If a node is too easy and everyone is beating it, it brings it up to an average. The first instance you would benefit by going to sleep and letting others slam their head into it, though this is rare. The second instance is what everyone worries about, because just the folks playing from the start get the advantage of the unscaled nodes.0 -
Community scaling is a pay-to-win aspect of the game. Levels get driven up to the point where the only way to win a sub is to spend a bunch of HP to buy health packs and boosts. I came in first in the Florida sub that ended yesterday, and the reason isn't that I'm immune to bad boards, or that my roster is that good, or that I'm a magically wonderful player who can beat 394s easily with my roster that tops out at 180. I won it because I spent about 1000 HP on it, and that gave me the ability to do five clears of every node (and more of some of them). I'd be lucky to have gotten top 10 without spending HP. And if it wasn't for The Thing, I wouldn't have done it, and while I'll be doing that again tonight for the Savage Land, I doubt I'll ever spend more than a tiny amount of HP on a PVE again. But spending HP was the only way for me to get a Thing Yellow cover out of this PVE.0
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I don't think Community Scaling should be turned off, but I do think it should be adjusted:
- There should be no community scaling on each player's first clear of a node.
Honestly, without community scaling PVE is... boring and even more grindy. It's too easy, particularly for someone who has a PVE roster, but you're forced to go harder for the same rank because everyone can pass the nodes just as easily. I prefer more skill vs time invested to determine the rank; that's also because I have less time available time than many of the grinders.0 -
Dauthi wrote:Arphaxad wrote:What will it take to convince the developers to turn off community scaling for good? As a newer player, almost 5 months into the game, I get disheartened every time I play a series and see community scaling pushing nodes out of reach within minutes of opening them.
As a veteran 4* player, I can play those nodes. That means that I have a higher chance to get a 4* I need, vs a 5 month player who doesn't need it. This isn't the correct way to rewards players?
I get disheartened when new players take rewards I need, when they would be just as happy with a 3* or an older 4*...
This is why many veterans have quit PVE. It's not worth it not because of community scaling, but because they have to compete with every player despite having an enormous amount of time invested in this game.
Who really cares how much time someone has "invested" in a game? Time in-game, as with a persons age, tends to lose relevance quickly. I have to say, it sounds like you really need these PvE covers when compared to the rest of the players.
I wonder how many 3 star covers you have won that you didn't need and sold for 500 ISO? Covers that are taken from players putting in just as much time (per day) that you do, working just as hard to earn them but can't because "veterans" need another 500 ISO. Not to mention the reward covers you win for being in a great alliance.
A roster like yours should stick with PvP instead of feeling entitled to the right to farm lesser players. The covers are faster and if you can beat others with like equipped rosters, even more rewards. 1000 points is a 4 star, everytime. Players of your apparent strength can win everywhere else in the game. Turn off the scaling and you can still win in PvE, it will just take you the same amount of grinding that it takes for everyone else.
Wether my opinion is in line with the general community or not.... It seems that community scaling does a good job of angering most of us. I would rather grind than rage quit.0 -
I'm with the majority to turn Community Scaling OFF and keep it that way. First and foremost, I think I shouldn't be impacted by what others are doing on a particular event. That's what PVP is for. Second, I think an event should have an established difficulty and leave it at that. That makes it fair. If your a top tier player with an awesome roster, you are rewarded by a good finish. If you're a lower tier player, you'll have to continue to work at improving your roster to get there. Third, the scaling is ridiculous once it starts. AI players as high as 191 and above. Come on. Let's be real. How many people, veteran or otherwise, can beat that node? I just got owned by a node labeled EASY yesterday with a 94+ roster fighting against 79 level AI characters. Evenly matched nodes, fine. RIDICULOUS leveled nodes, not ok. Just my two cents.0
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If there IS going to be community scaling, then the 395 cap needs to go. No free rides.0
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Today I've learned that not only should newbies have the exact same chances or better to win a competitive game mode than established players with a solid roster, but also that having a advanced roster means that you shouldn't be allowed to play said game mode altogether, because heaven forbid that a veteran player who wants to expand his roster further with a freshly released character, which is the only real way to progress at all in the game at the top level, should do so at the expense of a poor little newbie who want to jump straight from 2* to 4* without putting the work in that vet players have.
Yet apparently it's veteran players that feel entitled.
If you'll excuse me, I'm going to check outside if I can see any cats chasing dogs, and possibly worry about hamburgers now eating people instead of the other way around.0 -
I'd happily opt out of 4* competition in their release events. Give me a bracket where only the 3* prizes are awarded and I'll play that instead. Then the vets can chase their 4*, and I can avoid the feeding frenzy to chase a 3* reward that I do need.BBTBob wrote:I wonder how many 3 star covers you have won that you didn't need and sold for 500 ISO? Covers that are taken from players putting in just as much time (per day) that you do, working just as hard to earn them but can't because "veterans" need another 500 ISO. Not to mention the reward covers you win for being in a great alliance.
A roster like yours should stick with PvP instead of feeling entitled to the right to farm lesser players. The covers are faster and if you can beat others with like equipped rosters, even more rewards. 1000 points is a 4 star, everytime. Players of your apparent strength can win everywhere else in the game. Turn off the scaling and you can still win in PvE, it will just take you the same amount of grinding that it takes for everyone else.
But that would make too much sense, or something. Better for D3's bottom line to pit the entire playerbase at each others' throats
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Yes, and it is sort of sad that this thread even need made... but it did need made!0
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I think everyone agrees that the difficulties aren't going down for anyone as the PVE progresses, so the nodes are just getting harder over time with community scaling on. Given that, from a gameplay perspective it just doesn't make sense to me that if I wipe out on a node and want to come back and try it again with a different roster or more boosts or whatever, it's incrementally harder for the next run. It's never possible to just get ahead of that curve and meet the challenge; the possibility of getting that sense of accomplishment of beating a tough node is replaced by the sinking feeling of watching the difficulty drift farther and farther into the ridiculous zone. I hear what people are saying about the reward structure, but to me that's separate from the fact that no other game I've ever played continues to get tougher when I walk away from it or go to sleep overnight.0
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Demiurge have been investigating the results and feedback relating to recent experiments with turning off Community Scaling. Further word on conclusions should be arriving in the near future. Please stay tuned for that.
Thanks!
P.S. Moving this to Suggestions & Feedback.0 -
It is great that you guys are looking into this but the main thing to focus on (imo) is what people are saying about one player's actions affecting another. Such is the case with players "rabbiting" or "double-tapping" nodes in hopes to get so far ahead that no other player can catch them since they drove up the scaling on a hard node. For people that have nothing to do but sit around in their underwear grinding out events from their mother's basement that might be fine but for people that have jobs, school, a life - it is very disheartening to put the game down for a bit (in a good position) and come back only to find that community scaling has driven the node (and your position) into an unworkable nightmare. With CS turned off you still get the scaling from your roster, the grind is still tough, but you get to go at your own pace as opposed to "this person must have started grinding early and now I have no chance to get the desired reward since the node is out of control". For example, my highest chars are lvl 130 which is nothing to sneeze at but when I am facing a level 290 Ares because the node has turned deadly, I have almost no shot of even competing.
So with that being said, a lot of players might just get fed up with the fact that CS will ultimately hinder their progress so why not find something else to do with their time, hence stop playing the game. Player retention is absolutely crucial with how many issues have come up over the last month or so. Not to mention that since people have seen the difference between community scaling on/off, the vote is in heavy favor of it being off...lengthy but it is my two cents.0 -
I would be inclined to agree with you except that the very next event after release requires all (even the newbies who don't "need" the 4*) to have the newly released 4* to play essentials, to win 3*'s which most Vet's don't need. The developer is implying that the newbie needs the 4* as much as the vet for nothing more than being able to win more 3*'s not for building up playable 4*'s. Flaw in the system. Not the vets fault or the newbie fault.Dauthi wrote:Arphaxad wrote:Dauthi wrote:Arphaxad wrote:What will it take to convince the developers to turn off community scaling for good? As a newer player, almost 5 months into the game, I get disheartened every time I play a series and see community scaling pushing nodes out of reach within minutes of opening them.
As a veteran 4* player, I can play those nodes. That means that I have a higher chance to get a 4* I need, vs a 5 month player who doesn't need it. This isn't the correct way to rewards players?
I get disheartened when new players take rewards I need, when they would be just as happy with a 3* or an older 4*...
This is why many veterans have quit PVE. It's not worth it not because of community scaling, but because they have to compete with every player despite having an enormous amount of time invested in this game.
This is the elitist attitude that kills many MMOs. First, none of us NEED any of the covers, we want them. Secondly, new players want 4* covers as much, if not more, than veteran players, and have as much right to earn them as anyone else.
What is elitist about wanting to progress in a game? Would it be fair if lvl 50s could get elite raid gear for lvl 80s in WoW? Let's exacerbate this and say there is only so much elite gear too, so if a lvl 50 obtains it a lvl 80 out there doesn't. This is PVE in MPQ.How are new players supposed to progress and become veterans if not given the chance to earn the covers?
They can, and deserve to fight for new 4*s when they are transitioning to 4*. Doing so before makes little sense and is inefficient for both sides. It's equally ridiculous as a lvl 50 seeking lvl 80 gear (etc) in WoW when they can't use it until lvl 80 (and lets add in they have a static inventory that has little space too!). Why not get level 50 gear?Oldboy wrote:In the past, during this point of the argument, someone will mention about how the devs should have different tiers for beginners, 2* transition, 3* transition and 4* transition or any other equivalent model with different covers and prizes awarded for the events. This allows for some progression in the game and avoids lumping everyone together.
Personal scaling and community scaling is bad when the prizes remain the same across the board. If my difficulty goes up, i should at least get better prizes to go with it. That would at least justify having opponents of higher levels.
I said that in my thread I created about the whole situation being inefficient for everyone.
If you can complete a node that a new character cant though, that is the same as you getting better prizes than them (given you try to get the prizes). The cards are stacked in your favor, as they should be.
If the 4* was NOT required in the very next event, I would agree that you let the vets get the 4* and let the rest get the 3*'s. I do not consider myself a vet at all, but my 4* are progressing slowly but surely and mostly due to token pulls (mostly) and the occasional Alliance rewards. I would be pretty irritated if I was told I couldn't have them because i didn't put in enough "time" for the game. Daily login rewards should be the only thing really rewarding how long you've been playing. The rest should be how well YOU play the game, not how well everyone around you plays the game.
I'm not opposed to different tear events, with different difficulty levels, with different level of prizes. I have never completely beat the Gauntlet, but I definitely look forward to doing it one day.0
i wont mind the grind then 
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