Save Phantron

CaptainFreaky

re: viewtopic.php?style=1&f=7&t=30454#p368320

Phantron wrote:

Keep on losing to guys like 'Analyst' or 'Kishu' or 'Criterion' makes me feel like all I have been doing is a complete waste of time. And since I see no reason why this would be changed anytime soon, I've already uninstalled the game even though I was sitting at #6 in the Iso 8 Brotherhood event so I'm obviously still doing much better than the average.

Dear Devs & Community:
Please Save Phantron from permanently leaving the game
'nuff said

Unknown

CaptainFreaky wrote:

re: https://d3go.com/forums/viewtopic.php?s ... 54#p368320

Phantron wrote:

Keep on losing to guys like 'Analyst' or 'Kishu' or 'Criterion' makes me feel like all I have been doing is a complete waste of time. And since I see no reason why this would be changed anytime soon, I've already uninstalled the game even though I was sitting at #6 in the Iso 8 Brotherhood event so I'm obviously still doing much better than the average.

Dear Devs & Community:
Please Save Phantron from permanently leaving the game
'nuff said

This is such a heartfelt post....the only time I see ppl referring to phantron is badly.

Gogogo OP!!!

simonsez

Unknown

Like Simonsez said I have a far tolerance for the stupid things in this game compared to others, partly because I thought they might eventually fix them. Given the streamlined PvE events double downed on all the game's problems they somehow managed to do worse than the status quo, since I consider the old status quo as barely manageable but this new reality is not. I could come back for Gauntlet/Simulator which traditionally is not a goon heavy environment, but I've never been a guy to 'sort of quit', and I'm one of those guys where if it's a game I can compete for the top I'll always go for it, and since the game specifically is revamped to make it I can't do that I don't see the point to continue playing.

I think this game has been on a downright trend for a long time, and no I don't mean like 'it must be going downhill because I'm not enjoying the game'. Throwing out Ultron event (I think the server outage undid anything positive from the event, even though it is quite innovative), the last new type of content we had was DDQ. The last new PvE event was err... EotS? Those all happened quite a while ago. How can a game possibly even sustain its current population, let alone grow, by running the same 6 PvE events over and over or the 'insert a random featured guy' PvP event? For a long time I always thought the game would have to add something new. It doesn't even have to be good. You can have some ad-lib new PvE events and I can't see how that can possibly generate less interest than rerunning yet another PvE event. But after the streamlined events I just don't have faith we'll even be able to fix the existing problems, let alone come up with anything new to expand it.

Unknown

Phantron is honestly my favourite poster in this forum. While many of his posts tend to ramble, he takes his posts in a direction that few even think of. There's been countless Phantron posts where I think, "Where did he come up with this?' and he's totally right, bringing up backing evidence. Will be a true loss if he quits.

Unknown

Phantron is also my favorite poster... he usually says exactly what I am would say, in each new thread, but he says it first, saving me millions of keystrokes. Also he uses different analogies (that I can appreciate) than I would use, and makes me laugh with his humor from time to time.

Devs, if you don't retain this person, on this forum, be prepared for 50x more postings by me. Sometimes i rage a bit... so you are better off keeping Phantron. Nuff said.

Unknown

I too like Phantron and it is sad to see him go, but don't expect the devs to feel devastated...

In the past, they let many other priceless posters go and one of the best got a :

"you deserved a nice break from the game"...

So much cynicism always make me sad and upset at the same time.

Unknown

arktos1971 wrote:

I too like Phantron and it is sad to see him go, but don't expect the devs to feel devastated...

In the past, they let many other priceless posters go and one of the best got a :

"you deserved a nice break from the game"...

So much cynicism always make me sad and upset at the same time.

In the grand scheme of things people like me don't really matter. The only guys they might care would be a Whale just because that's where a lot of the money comes from, and even that is rarely going to be enough to matter on a game doing well. Now I suspect the game's been on a downward trend so maybe they should care. It's awfully hard to see how the game can't be declining given the absolute lack of even superficial content, unless they really think people consider randomly featured PvP as new content, or the same PvE you've seen 10 times with 3 different buffed character is new content. Maybe they consider new characters as new content, but that'd be totally missing the boat. New characters are new ways to make money. It's not new content since I sure don't need anybody new unless they're broken tier, and even in the most optimistic argument for roster diversity, I sure don't expect every 3*/4* to make even a superficial contribution to my overall roster outside of their obligatory appearance as an essential.

I don't know why this game suddenly stopped having any plan to expand and seems to be just fixing the holes, which they're not even doing a very good job at. For the record, I don't like Ultron as a concept, and I think in terms of execution it's utter disaster. But I'm willing to give the event a neutral overall rating because it's something new they're trying and I can see with a few fixes it might even turn out to be something cool. But I'm not willing to give any slack on a revamp of existing PvE event that turned out to be disastrous. Even if the revamp was totally awesome, I'm not going to be too excited because it's still the same event we've seen 10 times before, but to screw up the revamp? The game gets no break for me here. The question is why even do this? I'm sure I'm not alone in being more lenient on new content type, even if it's superficial like say another typical PvE with a different story, so why keep on roll out old content that a lot of people already dislike? Does D3 really think these events are the pinnacle of what MPQ ever will be so everyone needs to see them and bask in its glory?

A lot of games will just make minimal changes, add some extra numbers, reskin a few models, and charge you $15 and call that new content. When X-COM Terror of the Deep came out, I read the review and was like 'this sure sounds like a X-COM in an underwater environment', but the company says that's totally different and I went and bought it and sure enough it was just X-COM with an underwater environment. But at least they made an effort to try to package it as something new to try to trick you with your money. D3 doesn't even bother with that. We don't even see say a new Carnage event that looks awfully a lot like Iso 8 Brotherhood. It literally is just Iso 8 Brotherhood.

SnowcaTT

Phantron wrote:

In the grand scheme of things people like me don't really matter. The only guys they might care would be a Whale just because that's where a lot of the money comes from, and even that is rarely going to be enough to matter on a game doing well. Now I suspect the game's been on a downward trend so maybe they should care.

Whales won't stick around when the only people they can beat is each other, because the devs drove off the ftp community.

I hope you reconsider Phantron, but I understand the concern over the downward trend. The only reason I haven't noticed in PVE is I've quit it entirely for three seasons now - but for the reasons you mention (scaling, repetition).

Unknown

SnowcaTT wrote:

Whales won't stick around when the only people they can beat is each other, because the devs drove off the ftp community.

I hope you reconsider Phantron, but I understand the concern over the downward trend. The only reason I haven't noticed in PVE is I've quit it entirely for three seasons now - but for the reasons you mention (scaling, repetition).

Well, I can limit myself to only play events that do not feature cheesy goon nodes, but that'd be Simulator, Gauntlet, and EotS (EotS has relatively few combo nodes since it counts survival as a combo node but those you have a lot of time to prepare in the goon only phase to counter their cheap tactics) and that'd be pretty much the same as quitting the game I think.

I think lack of content is more likely the reason why the FTP community is driven off. I mean, can a FTP guy who is obviously getting nowhere in this game really look for the 6th iteration of Iso 8 Brotherhood as a reason to continue to play this game? At least the veterans are sort of the king of the hill and maybe there's some value in having the throne to yourself, but why would you put up with this if you're nowhere near the throne to begin with?

If they added significant content I'll probably be willing to try them out again, even if they still have the same problems, just because it's new stuff. But right now it seems more possible to hope scaling is fixed as opposed to any new content coming out for PvE.

wymtime

Phantron wrote:

SnowcaTT wrote:

Whales won't stick around when the only people they can beat is each other, because the devs drove off the ftp community.

I hope you reconsider Phantron, but I understand the concern over the downward trend. The only reason I haven't noticed in PVE is I've quit it entirely for three seasons now - but for the reasons you mention (scaling, repetition).

Well, I can limit myself to only play events that do not feature cheesy goon nodes, but that'd be Simulator, Gauntlet, and EotS (EotS has relatively few combo nodes since it counts survival as a combo node but those you have a lot of time to prepare in the goon only phase to counter their cheap tactics) and that'd be pretty much the same as quitting the game I think.

I think lack of content is more likely the reason why the FTP community is driven off. I mean, can a FTP guy who is obviously getting nowhere in this game really look for the 6th iteration of Iso 8 Brotherhood as a reason to continue to play this game? At least the veterans are sort of the king of the hill and maybe there's some value in having the throne to yourself, but why would you put up with this if you're nowhere near the throne to begin with?

If they added significant content I'll probably be willing to try them out again, even if they still have the same problems, just because it's new stuff. But right now it seems more possible to hope scaling is fixed as opposed to any new content coming out for PvE.

I am FTP and I remember when I was transitioning and I used to grind PVE for 3 covers and grind PVP to try and get top 25. Since the 8 hour refresh and DPDQ I just do refreshes and aim for top 50 in PVE. I don't grind down to 1 point, I don't I'm for 3 covers and my life is better for it. If I wipe out on a node I just skip it that round. I also stopped reading the story of PVE a long time ago. The last one I read was R&G and I was not really impressed. I keep meaning to read the Eleckra on, but each time I forget. Play PVE for a little ISO and HP, and if don't place well don't worry about it.

Wonko33

Part of me want to say "let the poor guy leave"

We're just a bunch of alcoholics and one of us is saying I don't think I should keep drinking and we're all "but the bar is not going to be the same without you"

As for the points made by OP, I still truly love the game mechanics: a match 3 game with superheroes, I love making combinations by choosing fun characters.

I'm am tired of the metagame, the lack of progression after a good stable of 3*s, I miss the powerful 4*, the drive to cover the good 4*s.

I am so tired of facing the stupid Dark Avengers, probably the most boring characters just boosted to 395. I much prefer gauntlet and simulator, where you get to fight a bunch of different opponents.

GothicKratos

Wonko33 wrote:

Part of me want to say "let the poor guy leave"

I was actually going to post something very similar to this. I think "saving" Phantron would probably be letting him be free of feeling the need to run the hamster wheel as fast as you can.

TheOncomingStorm

I disagree. I think the game grew right along with the initial player base. It got to be a point, where the gulf between the current player base and future players was too big. Thus, the recent concentration on figuring that part out. Would I had preferred many of those changes not coming at the expense of vets? Of course. But, it's hard not to look at what they've done and think that of someone was starting at this point, the game is much more palatable for them.

I think we all previously admitted when we up voted Ben Grimm ' s heroic jugs thread that the old pves needed work especially if they were going to continue to rerun them. I think it goes without saying the remodeled versions still need tweaking. However, it's hard to say they are not an improvement. Only 9 repeatable nodes, even 24 hours, no 12 hours difference between start and end times. It's the changes that should actually make The Hunt playable.

But again, I'd like to see scaling tweaked and paid closer attention to.

I agree on the new content. They've averaged new pve content every 3 months it seems. They say that's good for their small team. I got no knowledge, so I tend to take their word for that.

On one hand, it's hard to fault them because they made so many changes recently, so they have been visibly busy. On the other hand, if new pve content is what most players want and its their top priority, maybe 1 new one every 3 months won't cut it. *shrugs*

Unknown

Of course this game is very good, or I wouldn't have played so long. It seems to me it's almost like the devs are saying 'we know our game is so good that we don't even have to pretend we're running gimmicks.' Nerf a broken character? It's needed for balance (which I totally agree) and who cares if players get burned, they should know it's good for them (and it is, but that's not how you do business). Reskin a few Avengers and add variety to the DA lineup so we're not fighting same 5 guys over and over? Nah, MPQ is above such cheap tricks, so you'll just have Daken or Ares with some goons. How about say 3 difficulty levels like normal/hard/heroic that create some cheap artificial content that will also allow some separation between players? Nope, MPQ doesn't need that either because we got scaling and we don't need artificial difficulty levels because our one difficulty system is the best.

It feels to me MPQ literally does away with every tried and true gimmick for either player satisification or money generation, because MPQ is above that, and replace them with absolutely nothing because MPQ would rather have nothing over a hack job. For example, Scoregasm suggested capping nodes at 300 or so. I can tell you that is a hack job solution that does nothing to address the underlying problem, but you know what, this hack job solution is still a lot better than the current nodes where enemies just keep on going up past 300. Yes if 300 is the new high people will still complain about it, but 300 as the new high is significantly more manageable than 395 as the current high. You are going to introduce new problems with such a fix (a lot more virtual ties, leading to perhaps even more playing, but you'd also be losing less often), but at least you'll stop the bleeding, or at least bleed less than before. Maybe it'll even be enough that you don't have to find a better solution for a while.

Unknown

TheOncomingStorm wrote:

I disagree. I think the game grew right along with the initial player base. It got to be a point, where the gulf between the current player base and future players was too big. Thus, the recent concentration on figuring that part out. Would I had preferred many of those changes not coming at the expense of vets? Of course. But, it's hard not to look at what they've done and think that of someone was starting at this point, the game is much more palatable for them.

I think we all previously admitted when we up voted Ben Grimm ' s heroic jugs thread that the old pves needed work especially if they were going to continue to rerun them. I think it goes without saying the remodeled versions still need tweaking. However, it's hard to say they are not an improvement. Only 9 repeatable nodes, even 24 hours, no 12 hours difference between start and end times. It's the changes that should actually make The Hunt playable.

But again, I'd like to see scaling tweaked and paid closer attention to.

I agree on the new content. They've averaged new pve content every 3 months it seems. They say that's good for their small team. I got no knowledge, so I tend to take their word for that.

On one hand, it's hard to fault them because they made so many changes recently, so they have been visibly busy. On the other hand, if new pve content is what most players want and its their top priority, maybe 1 new one every 3 months won't cut it. *shrugs*

You can't get credit for picking up the low hanging fruit. Literally everybody on the forum other than the guys with the really weird schedule has pointed out that 12H or 1D 12H subs are dumb. Everyone knows Florida has too many nodes. Everyone knows playing Simulator Basic and Hard at the same time takes too long. Even most crazies will tell you that 2H 24M refresh times are nuts. I don't know who even thought any of these decisions made sense in the first place, but you don't get credit for fixing problems that should never have been allowed to persist for more than a week. If they had even a single person trying to place top 10 in PvE or top 5 in PvP they'd realize both systems have some serious underyling problems, and whoever is doing the PvE stuff will almost certainly accomplish nothing in work during the duration of that event which should immediately tell them the time requirements are insane. A comprehensive solution to these problems is difficult, but they're not even trying to band-aid this stuff.

TheOncomingStorm

Phantron wrote:

TheOncomingStorm wrote:

I disagree. I think the game grew right along with the initial player base. It got to be a point, where the gulf between the current player base and future players was too big. Thus, the recent concentration on figuring that part out. Would I had preferred many of those changes not coming at the expense of vets? Of course. But, it's hard not to look at what they've done and think that of someone was starting at this point, the game is much more palatable for them.

I think we all previously admitted when we up voted Ben Grimm ' s heroic jugs thread that the old pves needed work especially if they were going to continue to rerun them. I think it goes without saying the remodeled versions still need tweaking. However, it's hard to say they are not an improvement. Only 9 repeatable nodes, even 24 hours, no 12 hours difference between start and end times. It's the changes that should actually make The Hunt playable.

But again, I'd like to see scaling tweaked and paid closer attention to.

I agree on the new content. They've averaged new pve content every 3 months it seems. They say that's good for their small team. I got no knowledge, so I tend to take their word for that.

On one hand, it's hard to fault them because they made so many changes recently, so they have been visibly busy. On the other hand, if new pve content is what most players want and its their top priority, maybe 1 new one every 3 months won't cut it. *shrugs*

You can't get credit for picking up the low hanging fruit. Literally everybody on the forum other than the guys with the really weird schedule has pointed out that 12H or 1D 12H subs are dumb. Everyone knows Florida has too many nodes. Everyone knows playing Simulator Basic and Hard at the same time takes too long. Even most crazies will tell you that 2H 24M refresh times are nuts. I don't know who even thought any of these decisions made sense in the first place, but you don't get credit for fixing problems that should never have been allowed to persist for more than a week. If they had even a single person trying to place top 10 in PvE or top 5 in PvP they'd realize both systems have some serious underyling problems, and whoever is doing the PvE stuff will almost certainly accomplish nothing in work during the duration of that event which should immediately tell them the time requirements are insane. A comprehensive solution to these problems is difficult, but they're not even trying to band-aid this stuff.

The amount of time for top placement in pve is broken. You can t150 without too much work depending how that is defined.

I continue to believe the time requirement problem for pve is solely due to the event is pvp. The pvp aspect of pve is clearly the product of wanting to overly limit rewards given out.

It's my contention they can add as many new pves as they want. If they're not true pves like gauntlet or Ultron, then that's the real problem, not be content.

The problem for me now in pve is not the recycled content or scaling, my problem is knowing how many times I have to those nodes reach run and a pretty set schedule. If I only had to do each node once to earn the rewards (in a true pve format), I'm not sure the other things stand out as much. I definitely don't think players would get burnt out as fast. I'd venture to say grind fatigue is a very significant cause of player turnover.

Stax the Foyer

GothicKratos wrote:

Wonko33 wrote:

Part of me want to say "let the poor guy leave"

I was actually going to post something very similar to this. I think "saving" Phantron would probably be letting him be free of feeling the need to run the hamster wheel as fast as you can.

Tell me about the squirrels, George.

Unknown

TheOncomingStorm wrote:

Phantron wrote:

TheOncomingStorm wrote:

I disagree. I think the game grew right along with the initial player base. It got to be a point, where the gulf between the current player base and future players was too big. Thus, the recent concentration on figuring that part out. Would I had preferred many of those changes not coming at the expense of vets? Of course. But, it's hard not to look at what they've done and think that of someone was starting at this point, the game is much more palatable for them.

I think we all previously admitted when we up voted Ben Grimm ' s heroic jugs thread that the old pves needed work especially if they were going to continue to rerun them. I think it goes without saying the remodeled versions still need tweaking. However, it's hard to say they are not an improvement. Only 9 repeatable nodes, even 24 hours, no 12 hours difference between start and end times. It's the changes that should actually make The Hunt playable.

But again, I'd like to see scaling tweaked and paid closer attention to.

I agree on the new content. They've averaged new pve content every 3 months it seems. They say that's good for their small team. I got no knowledge, so I tend to take their word for that.

On one hand, it's hard to fault them because they made so many changes recently, so they have been visibly busy. On the other hand, if new pve content is what most players want and its their top priority, maybe 1 new one every 3 months won't cut it. *shrugs*

You can't get credit for picking up the low hanging fruit. Literally everybody on the forum other than the guys with the really weird schedule has pointed out that 12H or 1D 12H subs are dumb. Everyone knows Florida has too many nodes. Everyone knows playing Simulator Basic and Hard at the same time takes too long. Even most crazies will tell you that 2H 24M refresh times are nuts. I don't know who even thought any of these decisions made sense in the first place, but you don't get credit for fixing problems that should never have been allowed to persist for more than a week. If they had even a single person trying to place top 10 in PvE or top 5 in PvP they'd realize both systems have some serious underyling problems, and whoever is doing the PvE stuff will almost certainly accomplish nothing in work during the duration of that event which should immediately tell them the time requirements are insane. A comprehensive solution to these problems is difficult, but they're not even trying to band-aid this stuff.

The amount of time for top placement in pve is broken. You can t150 without too much work depending how that is defined.

I continue to believe the time requirement problem for pve is solely due to the event is pvp. The pvp aspect of pve is clearly the product of wanting to overly limit rewards given out.

It's my contention they can add as many new pves as they want. If they're not true pves like gauntlet or Ultron, then that's the real problem, not be content.

The problem for me now in pve is not the recycled content or scaling, my problem is knowing how many times I have to those nodes reach run and a pretty set schedule. If I only had to do each node once to earn the rewards (in a true pve format), I'm not sure the other things stand out as much. I definitely don't think players would get burnt out as fast. I'd venture to say grind fatigue is a very significant cause of player turnover.

This game is a pure grind. Tetris Ultron is the most 'puzzle quest' thing about this game.

Every event, even when new is immediately repeated: Ultron, Enemy of the State, Rocket & Groot

simonsez

raisinbman wrote:

This game is a pure grind.

I'm kinda feeling it isn't anymore, if you have a high end roster. The new PvP scoring means you can spend less time to hit the score target you want, and PvE with scaling-on-steroids makes it impossible to grind, because you run out of options and health packs way quicker than you used to. Remember when the essential nodes used to be the ones you could quickly grind down to 1 before risking taking on the hard ones? Now the essentials are the ones you might wipe out on on your first try, before risking taking on the ridiculous ones.

Unknown

simonsez wrote:

raisinbman wrote:

This game is a pure grind.

I'm kinda feeling it isn't anymore, if you have a high end roster. The new PvP scoring means you can spend less time to hit the score target you want, and PvE with scaling-on-steroids makes it impossible to grind, because you run out of options and health packs way quicker than you used to. Remember when the essential nodes used to be the ones you could quickly grind down to 1 before risking taking on the hard ones? Now the essentials are the ones you might wipe out on on your first try, before risking taking on the ridiculous ones.

PvP was always a mix of clever tricks and P2W (shields/boosts). It's not my cup of tea but you definitely don't need to grind and it's not even productive to do so after a certain point. My problem with the PvP system is that the rating literally doesn't make sense because ELO doesn't work well on a game where you win 90% of the time, according to official stats from the defensive win change. It still sort of works but it's just not very effective.

For PvE I think the goal is to get people to play less. In Simulator Hard you can usually play like 3 passes and still get top 5 and maybe even top 1. You have to increase scaling to make things easier for everyone in terms of playing time because having ties leads to the greatest amount of grinding. The problem is that this has to be done right and there are two things D3 did wrong:

1. Scaling is not consistent across players, so you're usually wondering who won the scaling lottery this event. It might even be you, but that's not going to stop you from blaming the game being screwed up because there's no way to verify any of this stuff.

2. Even if scaling was fair, say we just make every node static 395 for everyone and don't care what this means for the new guys (they'll all quit). Given how cheap most of these nodes are, placement now becomes mostly a matter of luck. It doesn't become P2W because you can quickly do some math and figure out the amount of health packs you need to buy to attempt to beat whoever is the luckiest guy in your bracket is going to be prohibitive. To illustrate, assuming a node is so hard that there's only a 10% chance to win with the best team. Someone in a bracket of 1000 is going to win 3 in a row predicted by probability, but for you to average 3 wins you need to play that node 30 times. That's roughly 90 health packs for 4500 HP. There is simply no way for an average luck person to compete against the luckiest guy on your bracket when things are hard enough. To put it simply, hard nodes are good but they have to be within reason, and to ensure that they need to be thoroughly tested, and it's clear they are not.