Game Difficulty!

emaker27

This became extremely apparent with The Gauntlet, but has always been a part of the game:

Why are beginners able to compete with veterans? (from a design perspective)

This is the only competitive game in my experience to have this structure. And when I'm a beginner at any game I expect vets to beat me, and not be able complete the same events as them.

I feel like this undermines a desire for all players to improve their roster since that doesn't help you gain equal footing with vets since you are already there. And as a vet with maxed characters, how does that help me perform better than a beginner?

A guy/gal with a max character of 70 (1 cover 4*) was able to beat 100% of the third gauntlet part. Should that be expected of any game?

First person on the scoreboard and first page of their roster:
http://i.imgur.com/2zTvvTs.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/6dbXvMI.jpg

EDIT: Deadpool's Daily Quest is exactly what I'd expect the other events to be like. It has a set difficulty and is easier as you level up. But it's only a third of the game (at best) so isn't enough of an incentive for players to level up.

EDIT 2: Added screenshots since my statement about a beginner beating the gauntlet is hard to believe.

Esheris

I don't care if newer players are able to compete with Vets in PvE, I do care that they have an easier time...why is it getting harder the more I progress my roster?

Unknown

Any chance we could focus more on the overall game design choices rather than continuing the "us vs. them" threads/posts? Seriously.

I'm a weaker player (2*s and a few decent 3*s) and made it through exactly 5 nodes in the first gauntlet sub. FIVE.

This isn't about noobs versus vets, it's about some bizarrely messed up game-building and a bunch of people angry and blaming each other rather than going to the source.

Again, as a weaker player, the gauntlet is impossible for me, and the REALLY bad news is that when I FINALLY get a bunch of 3*s and 4*s ready to rumble, it will just be even that much harder, which is obviously pretty dumb. Translation? It sucks for a bunch of us weaker players, and looking forward, it will suck more when we finally join the ranks of the 3*/4* crowd. Woo hoo.

So while my hat's off to anyone who can make the gauntlet work, I'm sorry but it's not as simple as "noobs are handed everything easy while vets are chained to a porch and flogged while playing MPQ." It just isn't.

DBC

dfields3710

Drummerboycroy wrote:

Any chance we could focus more on the overall game design choices rather than continuing the "us vs. them" threads/posts? Seriously.

I'm a weaker player (2*s and a few decent 3*s) and made it through exactly 5 nodes in the first gauntlet sub. FIVE.

This isn't about noobs versus vets, it's about some bizarrely messed up game-building and a bunch of people angry and blaming each other rather than going to the source.

Again, as a weaker player, the gauntlet is impossible for me, and the REALLY bad news is that when I FINALLY get a bunch of 3*s and 4*s ready to rumble, it will just be even that much harder, which is obviously pretty dumb. Translation? It sucks for a bunch of us weaker players, and looking forward, it will suck more when we finally join the ranks of the 3*/4* crowd. Woo hoo.

So while my hat's off to anyone who can make the gauntlet work, I'm sorry but it's not as simple as "noobs are handed everything easy while vets are chained to a porch and flogged while playing MPQ." It just isn't.

DBC

I'm not seeing how you are having trouble I have 6 maxed 2*s and no 3* past the level 81 and I'm halfway through the second part. I admit on some I use boosts but that is what they are there for. What is your alliance name and MPQ name so I can look at your roster and try to help.

Unknown

dfields3710 wrote:

I'm not seeing how you are having trouble I have 6 maxed 2*s and no 3* past the level 81 and I'm halfway through the second part. I admit on some I use boosts but that is what they are there for. What is your alliance name and MPQ name so I can look at your roster and try to help.

I'm seeing it, which is substantial enough evidence for me.

I sincerely appreciate the interest and offer to help, but I'm not all that worried about my performance. Whatever node wiped me out, it wasn't worth even worrying about soldiering on to get the relatively meaningless "rewards" I was looking at in the foreseeable future. If the game is structured so I need to use boosts, T-Us, and voodoo chants to win even more useless 2* cards (aside for needing 1-cover 2*s for essentials ), I'm not all that interested. I'll stick to PvP and DDQ for now.

Honest to God, I'm not even bitter about it. If I can't hang, I can't hang, no big deal. However, what does make me crazy is when we attack each other (read: "coddled noobs vs. hamstrung/out-leveled vets") instead of going after the source of our disappointment. I'm not embarrassed by my roster or my ability, but the seemingly endless refrains of " the noobs have it easier" are just so patently untrue in my actual real-life experience that I want to throw my phone.

Noobs have it tough, vets have it tough(er?). We're all on the same side, wanting a game that is enjoyable and reasonably fair. The notion that a day 500+ player (still running 2*s and a few useable 3*s) struggling to finish 6 out of what, 30+ matches is somehow being coddled is just insanity, and I'm guessing all the infighting is just fine with D3/Demiurge, or they would have done something about it, or at least gone beyond lurking in these seemingly ubiquitous threads (yeah, we all see you down there, feel free to chime in at any time)...

DBC

emaker27

Drummerboycroy wrote:

Any chance we could focus more on the overall game design choices rather than continuing the "us vs. them" threads/posts? Seriously.

This really wasn't meant the way you took it and I was trying to comment on the game design, which I failed at apparently.

I was trying to say, from a strict design perspective what is the purpose of the situation I outlined? We've all been beginners and in other games I've played I'm in the exact same position as you with this game. As you reference in your situation, if you're having a hard time now and becoming a "vet" makes it difficult also, why progress?

From a design perspective, it would make more sense to alleviate some of that difficulty so players get rewarded the more they build up their characters. That design concept isn't exactly groundbreaking since many if not all games do that, but they are employing a very different approach.

Unknown

emaker27 wrote:

Drummerboycroy wrote:

Any chance we could focus more on the overall game design choices rather than continuing the "us vs. them" threads/posts? Seriously.

This really wasn't meant the way you took it and I was trying to comment on the game design, which I failed at apparently.

I was trying to say, from a strict design perspective what is the purpose of the situation I outlined? We've all been beginners and in other games I've played I'm in the exact same position as you with this game. As you reference in your situation, if you're having a hard time now and becoming a "vet" makes it difficult also, why progress?

From a design perspective, it would make more sense to alleviate some of that difficulty so players get rewarded the more they build up their characters. That design concept isn't exactly groundbreaking since many if not all games do that, but they are employing a very different approach.

Totally cool, and admittedly, I was pretty fired up and wasn't targeting "you" per se, but more my perception of the perceived attitude, which I obviously misread on my end as well.

Heartfelt apologies if my post sounded like a dig on you, because that was (hopefully) clearly not my intent. I'm just really frustrated and sick of people (not you, just in general) I used to respect parroting the same **** about how the vets are being treated unfairly in favor of the noobs. Clearly that's not what you meant, and I look a jerk. lol Isn't the first time, won't be the last.

Of course, the funny irony is I'm something of a vet myself (just got my Daily Reward Electra) who is playing still with 2*s and a few 3*s, so it's even more maddening to watch the constant drone of "us vs. them," simply because it's obviously not as simple as that.

FWIW, I am in complete agreement re: leveling, but then if you read enough, you'll find a bunch of posters beating on each other about whether that is even reality or merely a myth. OK, if it's a myth, why are "the vets" and "the noobs" both significantly being out-leveled? Oh wait, could it be THE GAME DESIGN IN GENERAL? Know what would be awesome? Having a red name comment one way or the other, because right now, the one thing we all know is that something isn't right with something.

Frankly, if my agreement with you was any stronger with regard to your comments on leveling characters, I'd burst into flames, and yet, instead of the devs doing something, anything about this stuff, we all sit in the forum and beat on each other. Again, while people insist on forming and supporting false dichotomies (us vs. them), the scaling is broken for everyone, and progression? What's that?

I guess that's the source of my frustration. Beyond these debates feeling intrinsically untrue (at least in my experience), so many of the arguments I see these days just smack of "missing the forest" in a really sad, myopic way. Clearly that wasn't your intent, and perhaps not ironically, my misinformed response only proves to me how things are going in general. Here's a hint: not well.

Again, apologies for my tone and I hope you're not thinking I singled you out. It's more an overall growing frustration with the echo chamber this forum oftentimes becomes, and usually aimed in the wrong direction... toward other equally frustrated players.

Scaling and the lack of any real progression goals & rewards are so such obvious problems it would be comical if it weren't so frustrating, but it isn't an "us vs. them" equation. If anything, it's more "us + also us vs. them..."

Cheers!

DBC

Unknown

One of the things that bothers me the most its that as you progress in the game, you level up characters and in this process your lifebar becomes higher. With this, your enemies also becomes more powerfull and hit harder, and that forces you to use healthpacks, because I don't want to wait 9h to use him again.
I remember when I first started that I use to stock healthpacks, because the healing time was bearable for the amount of hp my character had.
The healing time and healthpack are the same for everyone, and to me it looks like you end up playing less as you progress.

Unknown

Rafaelmsb wrote:

One of the things that bothers me the most its that as you progress in the game, you level up characters and in this process your lifebar becomes higher. With this, your enemies also becomes more powerfull and hit harder, and that forces you to use healthpacks, because I don't want to wait 9h to use him again.
I remember when I first started that I use to stock healthpacks, because the healing time was bearable for the amount of hp my character had.
The healing time and healthpack are the same for everyone, and to me it looks like you end up playing less as you progress.

I'm sorry, are you saying you have characters you're waiting NINE HOURS to heal?

sarcasm/ Boy, am I looking forward to leveling up my 3*s... /sarcasm

DBC

emaker27

Drummerboycroy wrote:

Rafaelmsb wrote:

One of the things that bothers me the most its that as you progress in the game, you level up characters and in this process your lifebar becomes higher. With this, your enemies also becomes more powerfull and hit harder, and that forces you to use healthpacks, because I don't want to wait 9h to use him again.
I remember when I first started that I use to stock healthpacks, because the healing time was bearable for the amount of hp my character had.
The healing time and healthpack are the same for everyone, and to me it looks like you end up playing less as you progress.

I'm sorry, are you saying you have characters you're waiting NINE HOURS to heal?

sarcasm/ Boy, am I looking forward to leveling up my 3*s... /sarcasm

DBC

Sadly, yes. With the increase in health, some characters take forever to heal after being downed. So if you want to use them that same day, you'll probably have to use a health pack.

I also added this to the original post: "EDIT: Deadpool's Daily Quest is exactly what I'd expect the other events to be like. It has a set difficulty and is easier as you level up. But it's only a third of the game (at best) so isn't enough of an incentive for players to level up."

babinro

The problem with DDQ is that it's a joke after a while.

Vets just cruise through DDQ to pass the time for it's rewards.
There's no skill or challenge associated with it and it simply becomes a chore over time (albeit a relaxing one).

Scaling is the only thing that prevents the Gauntlet and PvE from falling into the same problems. You don't want it to be an easy experience because it's boring and more importantly because the amount of grinding to compete with other top end players would go beyond absurdity. I think scaling has a proper place in this game even if the brackets were more specialized for player tiers than they currently are (noob and vet only). They act as a natural cut off point and ensure health packs are drained so there's no endless grind even through people with perfect rosters.

That being said there are times where scaling SHOULD NOT EXIST.
One prime example is The Guantlet.
I had 9 maxed out nodes yesterday at level 395 and this morning I have 19 at level 395. Why?
There's no reason for community scaling to impact this event.

The same goes for limited roster PvE's.
Why would you 'punish' anyone with an established roster when they can't even use it to an advantage?

Unknown

babinro wrote:

...
That being said there are times where scaling SHOULD NOT EXIST.
One prime example is The Guantlet.
I had 9 maxed out nodes yesterday at level 395 and this morning I have 19 at level 395. Why?
There's no reason for community scaling to impact this event.
...

This is likely the wrong thread to continue this particular point, but this, so much this. I finished gauntlet for the first time ever this run, I am realizing now that it is likely because I started in earnest earlier than I have in the past. But why community scaling? What is the point?

What is the philosophical purpose to community scaling, and why should it be applied to the gauntlet? I understand personal scaling to a point, but people doing the event slowly are likely having a harder time of it already, why make it even more difficult or beyond the plausible reach of their roster? The details behind it are obviously hidden, but it seems that if you have two people with identical rosters and track records, one of whom pushes through and completes it and the other taking their time for health regen, work, or whatnot, that the difficulty level for the second person will be at least somewhat if not much higher than the first, possibly to a point where they can't even complete it.

Set the difficulty, and let the people play it. There is a very real possibility that everyone or that no-one will complete it, but why is that not okay? If it's supposed to be a race, structure it like a race. But metering the percentage of people capable of finishing based on how many others have been successful ahead of them seems like, well it seems like you are club bouncers. At 8pm, anyone can get in. At 9pm, you better look sharp and not be a single guy. At 10pm, you need to be a baller or a serious hotty. By 11pm, if you are not better looking than 95% of the people already uglying the place up, you will not get in tonight, but feel free to wait in this line with the illusion that you may get in if enough other people leave before last call.

Also, I have never seen a node get easier due to community scaling, pretty sure I've never seen one get easier because of personal scaling either, we don't want to encourage tanking after all. At best, you can delay scaling by winning with the worst team you could still win with and take as much damage as possible, and hope you don't get a lucky cascade that kills the enemy before you are good and beat up.

morph3us

CrankyDay wrote:

Also, I have never seen a node get easier due to community scaling, pretty sure I've never seen one get easier because of personal scaling either, we don't want to encourage tanking after all.

I've seen it happen just the once. It was in Venom: Heroic, and the restricted roster was such that there was absolutely no synergy at all, and there were no characters available in the restricted roster that could deal with CD tiles. The hard track nodes dropped about 100 levels over the course of the event. From recollection, I hardly touched the hard track nodes, and still T10 that event, which meant that virtually no one else was touching them either.

Turbosmooth

I'm stuck at node 30 which is the second node in the 3rd segment. I just get downed with every attempt. I don't think I can even down one opponent. I barely got by node 29 and had some luck for that to happen. The enemies are level 290 and my top 8 are 144. I always get stuck here! It's frustrating.
I had to use ProfX+3*BW or Kingpin+SWitch to get by nodes 20-29.

I'm getting better at PvP at least. Getting in the top 10 at moments even though I cap at 166. I was able to take down a Lv270 X-Force+166+94 with Patch+3*Daken+Luke Cage (Lv125-144). With a weakness with a 94 character, I harpooned through the match. X-Force was able to down Daken, but I then got revenge.

So I think what could work is if nodes would lighten up or mix up (aka 270+166+94 when it wants to do 290+290+290).

morph3us

Turbosmooth wrote:

I'm stuck at node 30 which is the second node in the 3rd segment. I just get downed with every attempt. I don't think I can even down one opponent. I barely got by node 29 and had some luck for that to happen. The enemies are level 290 and my top 8 are 144. I always get stuck here! It's frustrating.
I had to use ProfX+3*BW or Kingpin+SWitch to get by nodes 20-29.

That's weird. My top characters are ten maxed 3*s, and a level 200 4*, and that node is level 266 for me. I wonder if your using Prof X/GSBW to get through the nodes before presumably with relatively little damage has resulted in horrible scaling for you?

Unknown

emaker27 wrote:

Why are beginners able to compete with veterans?

For the most part they aren't.
PVP: nope.
DDQ: not until they get a maxed 2* roster. Plus haven't you heard all the complaints from people being locked out of cover nodes?

PVE: This is the one partial exception. While I would hesitate to call many of the competitive players beginners, I'd say the ones who are able to compete are because they put in a ton of time/money. We can further break this down:
Essentials: Essential node scaling is much less.
However, beginners are less likely to have the 3* and 4* essential. Even if they do, they rarely have them covered well, so it makes it harder for them to compete.

Scaling: scaling is likely to be less for beginners. However, you do get the exception of the lvl 395 max where top tier rosters have maxed out, while everyone is more scaled in proportion to them. Further, match damage climbs slower at higher levels. Low level rosters get massacred just as much on Juggernaut + 2 feeder nodes, they're probably just spending more health packs to retry.

Healing: the lower level of their characters means that they heal faster.

Gauntlet: Nope. Low level rosters get massacred here too.


In short, beginners aren't able to compete with veterans. The one partial exception is PVE, and even then they are putting in lots of time/money to compensate.

MarvelDestiny

emaker27 wrote:

Drummerboycroy wrote:

Rafaelmsb wrote:

One of the things that bothers me the most its that as you progress in the game, you level up characters and in this process your lifebar becomes higher. With this, your enemies also becomes more powerfull and hit harder, and that forces you to use healthpacks, because I don't want to wait 9h to use him again.
I remember when I first started that I use to stock healthpacks, because the healing time was bearable for the amount of hp my character had.
The healing time and healthpack are the same for everyone, and to me it looks like you end up playing less as you progress.

I'm sorry, are you saying you have characters you're waiting NINE HOURS to heal?

sarcasm/ Boy, am I looking forward to leveling up my 3*s... /sarcasm

DBC

Sadly, yes. With the increase in health, some characters take forever to heal after being downed. So if you want to use them that same day, you'll probably have to use a health pack.

I also added this to the original post: "EDIT: Deadpool's Daily Quest is exactly what I'd expect the other events to be like. It has a set difficulty and is easier as you level up. But it's only a third of the game (at best) so isn't enough of an incentive for players to level up."

The awesomeness here is that a health pack takes only 35 mins to regenerate...

I am in the same boat in regards to difficulty. As an early 3* transitional player I find the difficulty is way north of sane, and don't get me started on events like the Gauntlet. My roster is pretty deep and I've been careful not to over-level any characters yet the scaling/mmr keeps most nodes (pins?) out of reach (I'm not sure how much in skip tax I've paid but it must be in the 4 digits). That said, I give a reluctant nod to the devs for their continued work on scaling/mmr; it seems to be getting better.

Bottom line though, my enjoyment of mpq isn't enough to keep my interest any longer and I stopped playing hardcore several weeks ago. I do ddq and a couple sim battles most days with a few pvp & pve runs scattered throughout if I'm particularly interested in the covers but my interest continues to wane everyday.

Unknown

MarvelDestiny wrote:

emaker27 wrote:

Drummerboycroy wrote:

Rafaelmsb wrote:

One of the things that bothers me the most its that as you progress in the game, you level up characters and in this process your lifebar becomes higher. With this, your enemies also becomes more powerfull and hit harder, and that forces you to use healthpacks, because I don't want to wait 9h to use him again.
I remember when I first started that I use to stock healthpacks, because the healing time was bearable for the amount of hp my character had.
The healing time and healthpack are the same for everyone, and to me it looks like you end up playing less as you progress.

I'm sorry, are you saying you have characters you're waiting NINE HOURS to heal?

sarcasm/ Boy, am I looking forward to leveling up my 3*s... /sarcasm

DBC

Sadly, yes. With the increase in health, some characters take forever to heal after being downed. So if you want to use them that same day, you'll probably have to use a health pack.

I also added this to the original post: "EDIT: Deadpool's Daily Quest is exactly what I'd expect the other events to be like. It has a set difficulty and is easier as you level up. But it's only a third of the game (at best) so isn't enough of an incentive for players to level up."

The awesomeness here is that a health pack takes only 35 mins to regenerate...

I am in the same boat in regards to difficulty. As an early 3* transitional player I find the difficulty is way north of sane, and don't get me started on events like the Gauntlet. My roster is pretty deep and I've been careful not to over-level any characters yet the scaling/mmr keeps most nodes (pins?) out of reach (I'm not sure how much in skip tax I've paid but it must be in the 4 digits). That said, I give a reluctant nod to the devs for their continued work on scaling/mmr; it seems to be getting better.

Bottom line though, my enjoyment of mpq isn't enough to keep my interest any longer and I stopped playing hardcore several weeks ago. I do ddq and a couple sim battles most days with a few pvp & pve runs scattered throughout if I'm particularly interested in the covers but my interest continues to wane everyday.

It gets less awesome if you decide to make the "stupid" decision of (*GASP!*) stockpiling more than 5 health packs, because then they regenerate at a rate of, well, never.

BTW, it sounds like you and I are essentially experiencing and playing the exact same game. I got really fired up for about a month, and then reality started setting in... DDQ, hope for progression on PvE, mess around with PvP until I take 3-4 losses for well over 100+ points, call it a day.

DBC

Unknown

In the long, long ago (say, the first runs of events like The Hunt or Hulk), difficulties were set across the board. In the first few PvE events, there were nodes I couldn't finish. I leveled up my roster to the point where I could finish them all and felt like a big man. Then, right around the time of Heroic Oscorp, scaling became par for the course. Since then, the experience of a veteran is supposed to be more or less interchangeable with the experience of a new player, although a new player has faster healing times and the vet has a deeper roster and more strategic options.

I, and many other early players, have long been of the opinion that the PvE section of the game was better before scaling was introduced. There is more of a sense of progression if there are things that you couldn't handle at one point that you can then handle later on. Also, if your progression trivializes some challenges while enabling others (with correspondingly higher rewards), it dispels the illusion that you've just been spinning your wheels with a Bejeweled Clone for months on end.

I would say that, given the proportion of newer players to older players and the sheer volume of characters in the game, scaling is an absolute necessity to the play-ability of the game. Rather, I would say that this game in the absence of scaling would require a lot more permanent content and a lot fewer recycled events. Which would presumably take resources away from character generation, which is presumably not in the cards. I know which version of the game I would prefer, but that's not the version of the game we're likely going to get.

MarvelDestiny

I agree with you Moon. I'll make a suggestion here that I've already made a couple times before:

D3 should code in player-set difficulty levels. The coding for this is not rocket science, simply implement a variable multiplier applied to scaling/mmr, progression pts, iso/hp rewards, etc. (The concept is simple but I grant that combing through all the code to find every instance is, well, daunting...) D3 could even make money on the idea by making level changes cost hp.

This kind of option would keep players in the game longer resulting in increased profits. The only downside I can see is possible player abuse but an easy fix is to only enable level changes between seasons.

I am, of course, making a lot of assumptions about the logic of the code. This may not be feasible but it certainly seems like an easy feature to implement.

udonomefoo

emaker27 wrote:

A guy/gal with a max character of 70 (1 cover 4*) was able to beat 100% of the third gauntlet part. Should that be expected of any game?

Can we go back to this part? Is this a rumor you heard, because I'm having a really hard time believing this.