What's going on with the PVP difficulty!?

daveomite

bustapup wrote:

OK so I have a pretty good, powerful roster that includes maxed out xforce, Elektra and invis woman on about 165. I have over 10 maxed out 3* including Cyclops, scarlet witch, mystique, black panther, psylocke, hulk, GSBW etc so its by NO means a shabby line up.

I much prefer playing PVP and used to get up to the 1k mark almost every time but NOW I am struggling to get over 600 without REALLY hammering my health packs and HP to buy more and using almost every member of my line up.

what the hell is going on?
The AI is getting cascades that are so ridiculous I just end up quitting early on because I know there's no way I'm ever going to win and every board seems biased to them. I played against blade and mystique today and the board was FULL of pink and reds when incidentally I needed blacks and greens and blues really. Mystique ended up doing shapeshift about 3 times and each time the tile was in a location impossible for me to reach and the same can be said for blades keep your enemies closer. When I do those abilities however they're usually dispatched off the board 2 turns later.

Surely this cant just be me experiencing this but I am quickly losing patience with it as I just don't enjoy playing when I'm losing 5 matches straight against teams I really should be beating.

Good questions. You're certainly not the only one who's noticed it. I know several players who were ready to throw their phones over the last few days because of weird issues such as this. Yes, I know She Hulk's green can cause you to lose AP - but, keep in mind, this isn't the first run of the She Hulk pvp, and it most certainly wasn't this much of a pain in the butt last times it's been done. Now, with the combination of the MMR changes, full blown maxed teams at 0, snipers all over the place, nerfed characters, boosted characters - it's made it brutal overall.

Stax the Foyer

bustapup wrote:

and whilst the comments about us only noticing it more when it happens again us.....WE'RE the players and want to enjoy the game. the AI isn't going to get hugely frustrated and just stop playing are they? lol

I think you just figured out what keeps happening to the seed teams.

Stax the Foyer

Moon 17 wrote:

The longer a match goes, the greater the chances that the computer is going to land a super magic cascade. The computer doesn't have to get luckier, it just has to wait. And if your characters are worn down from the longer matches or the AP blasting shenanigans, then your odds of that cascade ending you are higher.

PvP had its difficulty increased substantially through health buffs and amped-up characters. With more durable opponents, you're bound to hit spurts of bad luck that even the AI can't fail to win with. And to increase the fun, you get to lose 2 to 5 matches against other players in the time it takes you to win a couple.

FUN!!!

In an attempt to be constructive: PvP scoring has always favored speed, and relatively low health opponents have always enabled fast play and recovery from unlucky boards or computer-side miracles. Now that this game has had its emergency brake pulled, the entire PvP format probably needs to be re-evaluated. Long, difficult, exhausting matches might make sense and be satisfying if we were doing something other than playing a zero-sum point-accumulation game against everyone else in the world. As it stands, though, that's exactly what we're currently doing.

I agree with all of this, and want to point out one more thing that matters.

In addition to match length increasing overall, there's also going to be an increase in the spread of of match lengths. With a dry board, or a zeroed-out AP pool (thanks, She-Hulk), it will take that much longer to chew through the increased and boosted health pools with match damage, so the longest matches will take even longer. Meanwhile, a favorable board or a cascade can still end a match very quickly. The spread between the longest possible match and the shortest possible match gets wider.

That's another level of randomness that makes shield hopping even more frustrating. You're more likely to lose for the reasons Moon 17 listed, and even if you win, it can easily take you long enough that you'll get hit on a single hop because your attacker got luckier with the board.

Unknown

bustapup wrote:

OK so I have a pretty good, powerful roster ...

I much prefer playing PVP and used to get up to the 1k mark almost every time but NOW I am struggling to get over 600 without REALLY hammering my health packs and HP to buy more and using almost every member of my line up.

what the hell is going on?
The AI is getting cascades that are so ridiculous I just end up quitting early on because I know there's no way I'm ever going to win and every board seems biased to them. I played against blade and mystique today and the board was FULL of pink and reds when incidentally I needed blacks and greens and blues really.
...
Surely this cant just be me experiencing this but I am quickly losing patience with it as I just don't enjoy playing when I'm losing 5 matches straight against teams I really should be beating.

Realizing full well the concept of confirmation bias:

I'm actually cringing while I write this, but honestly? I would swear there have been some, well, "weird" things happening in my matches. I know, I know. Confirmation bias.

That said, I've seen more than one board that was virtually all one or two colors (not colors I could use between three heroes, mind you), and multiple Torch, Blade, Mystique, and PX special tiles that seem to ALWAYS drop in the corners. Further, those colors in those corners are STILL not reachable 6-10 turns later...

And then there are the cascades...

Now, having said all that, bear in mind that my matches are taking 3+ times as long as they once did in some cases, so a lot of stuff I hadn't noticed or paid attention to before could be exacerbated and illuminated merely by the dramatic increase in match length.

Sure, this all has something to do with they way I play, and chance, and match length, and the barometric pressure (OK, probably not that.), but boy, it sure does seem like there are a bunch of very lucky AI moments...

DBC

xellessanova

Moon 17 wrote:

The longer a match goes, the greater the chances that the computer is going to land a super magic cascade. The computer doesn't have to get luckier, it just has to wait. And if your characters are worn down from the longer matches or the AP blasting shenanigans, then your odds of that cascade ending you are higher.

PvP had its difficulty increased substantially through health buffs and amped-up characters. With more durable opponents, you're bound to hit spurts of bad luck that even the AI can't fail to win with. And to increase the fun, you get to lose 2 to 5 matches against other players in the time it takes you to win a couple.

This. All of this **** about super cascades is because we've moved to longer matches.

The devs have switched the format of the game to try to favor defensive play (IW) over fast offensive play (XF 2.0). Revisions of characters like She-Hulk to destroy AP on Green; new characters like Kamala Khan who team heal or Luke Cage who drop strong Protect tiles; multiple boosted characters weekly; health boosts to all but the top tier characters; more 4* characters with hefty health pools; nerfs to the fastest damage dealers.

I found this from Jan 2014:

Demiurge_Will wrote:

unentschieden wrote:

How long are individual turns and matches supposed to last (in the context pvp and pve)? How long should a match with high healtloss on your side take compared to one without?

The best case scenario for balance is imho that every character (and ever skill) has a context in which they are valid to use.

Great questions, thanks, unentshieden.

Battle durations depend a lot on how you play (both how long you take to choose your next move and team composition) and we vary them a lot for dramatic effect and variety (some missions should be easy and quick, some should be epic and long). But we're aiming for a typical fight for a player that moves at a reasonable pace to land in the 4-5 minute range.

So the question is: are we playing a 4-5 minute match now? What were you playing before? I remember that boosted Sentry-Hood could kill a team inside of 60 seconds; 6 minutes used to be enough time to clear 2 fights boosted with XF/DP.

Vankysher

xellessanova wrote:

So the question is: are we playing a 4-5 minute match now? What were you playing before?

Before the latest changes, most of my matches were in the 3-5 minute range as a 2*->3* transition player.
Since the changes I have leveled most of my roster to lvl 90 and the matches have become noticeably longer - maybe 5-8 minutes?
I know I am not a very fast player by nature so these numbers may seem high to most on the forum.

xellessanova

Vankysher wrote:

xellessanova wrote:

So the question is: are we playing a 4-5 minute match now? What were you playing before?

Before the latest changes, most of my matches were in the 3-5 minute range as a 2*->3* transition player.
Since the changes I have leveled most of my roster to lvl 90 and the matches have become noticeably longer - maybe 5-8 minutes?
I know I am not a very fast player by nature so these numbers may seem high to most on the forum.

Demiurge_Will has said that 2* teams take longer to finish a match and have a higher likelihood of losing than 3* teams.

I'm only speaking for myself as a 3*->4* transition player, and I don't think my teams are the fastest either. I do know I can no longer do more than 1 fight without getting hit during a shield hop.

Unknown

The recent changes in general favors the AI and in particular some of the affected characters (like X Force) is greatly in favor of players in mirror matchups. This week has Blade boosted and he's pretty much a lose-lose situation in a mirror match, because if you can get The Thirst going then you're also taking massive match damage from their Blade, and if you can't get The Thirst going why even have Blade? But since he's easily the strongest character out of the boosted list you can't really afford to go without him either.

Unknown

I thought I'd chime in to say I haven't even bothered with PvP this season. I've entered but every bracket has been a death bracket. After the first few that I barely managed to land single covers for (couldn't even get one for SW), I just gave up on PvP. I'd been playing casually past several seasons since I returned and been doing decently, but something is definitely different.

Some ideas:

*Overall game time spent *PvE placement (I've been somewhat more active in PvE since Ultron *Roster as compared to the rest of the playerbase (possibly who fit your play criteria) *Cumulative season rankings (mine have been pretty low, but maybe it doesn't care as long as it thinks you're a "regular" *MMR / possibly associated bracketing changes in the recent updates *Leveling more heroes (brought a several more up to 166 or near the mark *Buying more roster slots during Ultron (or was it EOTS) because I liked what the devs were doing and thought I'd support them a little by purchasing some more spaces

I also think the health increase was less to balance characters and more to draw out matches to ensure that everyone needs to use lots of health packs, as longer matches increase odds of monster-cascades, which isn't even factoring in the AI cheating in its own favor on tile placement.

I've noticed a substantial drop in my token pulls Since HB events ended, despite the supposed increased odds. I think I've pulled maybe 1 3* since the end of EOTS.

In terms of the matches, sometimes they're alright, but I've also definitely noticed they tend to be more stacked in the A.I.s favor lately, and in particular I mean cascades that seem to be less random and more designed for whatever their strong powers are. Or to wipe 20 of your protect, strike, etc tiles in a single cascade and leave all of theirs intact. Or to give them multiple cascades the first few turns that let them 1 shot or half shot your strongest character before the match even starts, or because you just managed to fire off some protect tiles or get through a match without taking much damage.

But talking more specifically about PvP, I'll mirror what other have said. I've basically stopped bothering with PvP entirely this season, as every match is a grind-fest. If you use characters who don't require health packs, you get hammered on defense. If you use ones who do, you run out of health packs and can't continue. Plus you get hit 200-300 points lower than previous seasons. So what's the point? I'm still finding PvE somewhat enjoyable, although much more grindy than I'd like it to be. I miss being able to actually play PvP. Tacos are still (somewhat) fun, although less so when you never draw anything other than 2*s from your Taco Tokens.

Unknown

To chime in confirmation bias, but I tried to do a 3.5 minute hop at the end. 3 straight times I got black to 10+ for XF and got furious charged for 100% black (It was 100/50). Odds of that are 1 out of 343 or 0.29%.

So I'm saying there is a chance, but I threw my phone after the third one anyway.

Definitely the RNG on Furious Charge felt broken. I rarely knocked out the one I wanted with one cast, but it seemed (confirmation bias again) to happen quite frequently that as soon as my power bar started flashing it would go to zero.

Unknown

The Vision pvp is nearly as much fun. A boosted Iron Fist feeding black to a level 350 XForce is all a bit Super Meat Boy in terms of relaxing enjoyment.

Edit: That's dark world Super Meat Boy

snlf25

Ben Grimm wrote:

I think they need to switch to a model that removes losses from the equation entirely. Scores might go up a bit, but - given that the average match now requires 1-2 health packs - probably still no higher than they were before this round of changes. You gain points on a win, lose nothing on a loss, either offensive or defensive. That way, they're encouraging actual roster diversity (people buying more roster slots and keeping more characters on hand), making PVP less of a slog, and de-emphasizing quickness as a major part of the meta.

I'm with you, Ben. I had to score close to 900 points just to keep 571 of them and come in 62nd for one lousy Vision cover. The game is becoming so much more like actual work than fun.

Unknown

snlf25 wrote:

Ben Grimm wrote:

I think they need to switch to a model that removes losses from the equation entirely. Scores might go up a bit, but - given that the average match now requires 1-2 health packs - probably still no higher than they were before this round of changes. You gain points on a win, lose nothing on a loss, either offensive or defensive. That way, they're encouraging actual roster diversity (people buying more roster slots and keeping more characters on hand), making PVP less of a slog, and de-emphasizing quickness as a major part of the meta.

I'm with you, Ben. I had to score close to 900 points just to keep 571 of them and come in 62nd for one lousy Vision cover. The game is becoming so much more like actual work than fun.

I've made similar suggestions, numerous times, including back before I quit last year. It would be a wonderful improvement if they moved towards a personal progression model for PvP rewards without point loss, and let you just widdle away playing matches at your own pace until you reached them. If they fix that and roster slot prices, they'll have a much friendlier game on their hands that should work for both casuals and hardcores. alike. People who wanted top spots for placement could get it without impeding people who just want to play for progression and don't care about winning.

Of course, they'd also have to be cognizant of keeping it streamlined so you're not expected to grind 30 hours a week to reach progression rewards. I think 5 hours per PvP is the right amount of grind to keep it fun and make it not feel like work, assuming you have the freedom to complete that grind over the course of a few days.

Unknown

papa07 wrote:

To chime in confirmation bias, but I tried to do a 3.5 minute hop at the end. 3 straight times I got black to 10+ for XF and got furious charged for 100% black (It was 100/50). Odds of that are 1 out of 343 or 0.29%.

So I'm saying there is a chance, but I threw my phone after the third one anyway.

Definitely the RNG on Furious Charge felt broken. I rarely knocked out the one I wanted with one cast, but it seemed (confirmation bias again) to happen quite frequently that as soon as my power bar started flashing it would go to zero.

Yeah, my inclination in the past was also to just write it off as a confirmation bias. After Hood + goons and miracle cascades at the start of the match wiped my team twice in a row in the DA heroic, and nearly a third time (with consistent behavior during the rest of the heroic and other times, I decided this probably is something more than just chance).

Like you're saying with SS getting nullified, I've also noticed this that as soon as you build up a strong power, it throws them a miracle cascade that wipes your special tiles, at least one of your characters (or near it), and sets them up to fire off multiple damaging powers in a row. Sometimes the boards are just more volatile, but this seems to be something different associated with state of match triggers to punish you for doing too well, or to ensure you take damage.

Unknown

I sympathize with the OP. PVP is more of a grind than ever. Nearly every node this past week has been featured + level 240 Blade + level 240 CMags, to the point where the featured was overshadowed by the buffed characters. This week it may be BP+IF (we'll see). It made me wonder if the whole notion of buffed chars is altogether not worth it. Why not just buff the featured, and that's it?

A couple posters commented they used to reach 1000 prog but cannot anymore. It makes sense. The matchmaking change, the buffed chars (both weekly buffed chars, and buffed health on many chars), the nerfs, and the nerfs to boosts are the underlying reasons.

To climb to 800 on 25 point fights requires 32 battles, which used to be about 4 mins, but are now perhaps ~8 mins if you consider that every fight will be max level buffed chars (level 240/240/290). For the She-Hulk PVP, you had to chew through over 30,000 life per match. 32 matches at 8 mins per requires 256 mins, or 4.5 hours every 2.5 days. Add in DPDQ everyday, and you're looking at 13-15 hours per week of game time, assuming you never participate in PVE, and you never wipe a match (which is unlikely). That's 25-35% of a full time job. It's about double what it was before.

I'm not surprised the number of players (even top tier) don't bother to go for 1k prog anymore. Hopping the last 200 points is too cumbersome to be worth it in my opinion unless it's a key cover.

puppychow

bustapup wrote:

what the hell is going on?
The AI is getting cascades that are so ridiculous I just end up quitting early on because I know there's no way I'm ever going to win and every board seems biased to them. I played against blade and mystique today and the board was FULL of pink and reds when incidentally I needed blacks and greens and blues really. Mystique ended up doing shapeshift about 3 times and each time the tile was in a location impossible for me to reach and the same can be said for blades keep your enemies closer. When I do those abilities however they're usually dispatched off the board 2 turns later.

In the lightning rounds, I've noticed the AI getting crazy cascades more frequently, at least 25% of my matches. Imagine facing AI's defense of loaner plus 2 maxed out 2* with my maxed laken/patch, and taking 6 minutes to barely win due to cascades feeding AI colors for winfinite turns (i.e. AI makes a 6-8 moves for every move I make). Thankfully, I encounter these situations far less often in regular pvp events.

I do agree that the board seems to tilt in favor of the AI team's colors. But that's always been the case, rather than a recent event. This is why it is important for you to bring a team that can utilize the colors used by the defense, both for color denial and to power up your team's abilities for quick matches. In other words, you can't trot out the same attackers every match.

puppychow

Just to add to Camichan's excellent post, another problem re: pvp changes is that in the past the AI would make matchups based on a range depending on the player's point value. So in effective the search for matchups is based on a points band. Now that band has been wiped out, allowing a zero point player to hit people on the leader board even if there is a 1,000 points difference. However, the maximum points awarded for a single match is still 49 points.

If you're on the leaderboard, you're forced to shield on the first day or by the second day at the latest if you wish to keep your points.

Unknown

puppychow wrote:

Just to add to Camichan's excellent post, another problem re: pvp changes is that in the past the AI would make matchups based on a range depending on the player's point value. So in effective the search for matchups is based on a points band. Now that band has been wiped out, allowing a zero point player to hit people on the leader board even if there is a 1,000 points difference. However, the maximum points awarded for a single match is still 49 points.

If you're on the leaderboard, you're forced to shield on the first day or by the second day at the latest if you wish to keep your points.

Getting sniped from way below is a pain, yes.

One poster in another thread suggested getting rid of retals. It's hard to know how that might work out in total, but one thing I like about it is that it would open up the opportunity to attack nodes <25 points. Currently, the AI gives me tons of nodes (seemingly the default) between 18-20 points, and some as low as 11 points, but I'm likely not going to attack those nodes because it hands the opponent a juicy retal (a net point win for him/her) and a net loss for you (assuming you're not shield hopping). Given this is the status quo, the AI is just wasting my time and ISO handing me 11-20 point nodes in my queue and I have to skip until I get a node at least 25 points. That's inefficient.

So either the AI should be changed so I primarily only see 25+ point nodes in my queue, or perhaps retals could be dropped making <25 point nodes viable targets.

Unknown

I always used to use XF yellow before ending a match. Now either the board doesn't allow it or if i get it off the AI always matches it.

Also I find it sad the devs had to buff XF to get anyone to use him at all.

I always heard if your in a hole quit digging. The devs on the other hand get more shovels.

CT1888

I'm actually finding PVP better, and scoring and placing way higher.
Part of that is because my roster is finally breaking into 166 3* land, likely reduced playing from some people at the top end of the game and covers people didn't want to fight for, but in the last 5 I've been top 50 3 time and top 25 twice, whereas a month ago I was having to attack hard and shield to get a sniff at top 100.
My play style has had to change, starting nag earlier and building my way up over a couple of days, but this coincided with PVE scaling making it no longer enjoyable and too much of a chore, so I'm OK with ditching that.
The reduced point loss on defeats at lower point levels let's me do my fights, take a few hits while at work / asleep / letting Hp regen, then climb up some retals or new high value targets.
This week I've had no boosted 3*s well covered and levelled (except Daredevil who I couldn't get to work for me), running with a 166 Thor & GSBW, and hulk bombing with a 153 Hulk and 127 Patch, so I did plenty of dodging round X-Force and Black Panther, but the targets were there for me thankfully. It's been a bit more effort than running through the first 300 points without too much hassle, but it has been way more satisfying.
750 for 15th in Made Man