State of Play: No Consideration for 3-Star Tier.

Mawtful

Demiurge_Kabir wrote:

Nipping this in the bud too. Please don't rely on the spoiler thread for your character info; we have nothing planned, conceived or in consideration for any 3*s either.

I'm honestly surprised by this quote. I think there's significantly important implications which don't exactly fill me with confidence.

I'm talking about everything past the semi-colon, "we have nothing planned, conceived or in consideration for any 3*s either." Demiurge says they operate a highly agile development cycle; I believe it's been said that they generally work to two week sprints. One of the key pillars of agile development is adaptability or "response to change". It's already something which I think can be recognised as missing from MPQ anyway - small incremental changes to characters each week or two would be agile, reworking a huge stack of characters all at once is not. But even dumping a huge "Balance-ageddon" of character updates all at once could be reasonably followed up with monitoring and incremental changes. Instead it's all quiet on the western front.

To really spell this out, no work is being done on the following characters:

Beast
Black Panther
Black Widow (Grey Suit)
Blade
Captain America (Steve Rogers)
Captain Marvel
Colossus
Cyclops
Daken (Classic)
Daredevil
Deadpool
Doctor Doom
Doctor Octopus
Falcon
Gamora
The Hood
The Hulk
Human Torch
Iron Fist
Iron Man (Model-40)
Kamala Khan
Loki
Luke Cage
Magneto
Mystique
Psylocke
The Punisher
Quicksilver
Ragnarok
Rocket & Groot
Scarlet Witch
Sentry
She-Hulk
Spider-Man
Squirrel Girl
Storm (Mohawk)
Thor (Modern)
Vision
Wolverine (Patch)

Emphasis in bold for characters which I think that, at a minimum, should at least be being considered/monitored (both OP & UP). Emphasis in italics for characters which have at least 1 ability which is commonly considered to lower their overall ranking/usability.

To have nothing even concieved or in consideration for any (existing) 3*s just leaves me completely floored. I want to say that it's either a confession of incompetance or a lie, but I don't want to upset anyone. Still, that last statement really wasn't necessary information; keeping it to "Nipping this in the bud, please don't rely on the spoiler thread for character information" would have sufficed.

I just don't know what to think, but I am concerned about the direction MPQ is headed. It feels like someone at a switchboard with no understanding of how it works, so they're just flicking switches and pressing buttons waiting for something to happen.

Edit: To clarify, the quote comes from this post: viewtopic.php?style=1&f=7&t=29594#p356964

Dauthi

Moonstone just got buffed. Just sayin'.

Lee T

First, a little context would be nice, could you point out to the thread/post you're quoting.

Second, it's such an overly exagerated sentence that it's hard to take it at face value. There's no timetable in that sentence, it might just be for the coming weeks, month(s).

Among the D team Kabir seems to me as the less nimble with his words shall we say. i would take that sentence with a grain of salt. I'm not saying he's lying, but there's already been a few times where what he's written wasn't exactly what he meant (see the Ultron 1 health iissue to Ultron 2 debacle for exemple or the Ultron compensation post where the message and the TLDR at the end do not carry the same message). I no longer expect precision from him.

Mawtful

Lee T wrote:

First, a little context would be nice, could you point out to the thread/post you're quoting.

Second, it's such an overly exagerated sentence that it's hard to take it at face value. There's no timetable in that sentence, it might just be for the coming weeks, month(s).

Among the D team Kabir seems to me as the less nimble with his words shall we say. i would take that sentence with a grain of salt. I'm not saying he's lying, but there's already been a few times where what he's written wasn't exactly what he meant (see the Ultron 1 health iissue to Ultron 2 debacle for exemple or the Ultron compensation post where the message and the TLDR at the end do not carry the same message). I no longer expect precision from him.

1. Updated to include a link to the quoted post.
2. I agree. I'm not under the impression that they believe the 3* tier is set in stone. I am concerned that they have just delivered a significantly major update to the majority of the characters and the weekly buff list, and yet have "nothing" in consideration for any of those characters.
3. This is a good point. I would have expected that all/most 3* characters are under scrutiny, and maybe they are, but that's considered "business as usual" and Kabir felt that wasn't worth communicating (if you do read this, K, that sort of information is always worth communicating).

Ludaa

I think this is a little harsh. I read it as no upcoming nerfs. The big update is still fairly new and they aren't known for making quick tweaks. We want to encourage communication, not getting a lawyer to make statements for them.

It's also super late and my **** roomate brought people over to drink on a Thursday night. Did i mention he's an ****?

Unknown

I'm finally at the point where I don't need to rely on any 2* really, but I've said for a while that the dev team lacks focus and honestly, with the lack of communication it all comes across as being exceptionally lazy. Look at any decently popular game out there right now and balance is key, even(or perhaps especially) when you're looking at 1000+ abilities across many characters they all get tweaked, usually every week. Looking back at MPQ, every hero only has 3 abilities, there's currently 60 some odd heroes in the game but changes come at an absolutely glacial pace, as someone already mentioned, Moonstone is getting reworked, she's only been in the game for at least a year now and her black has been 90% useless from day 1.

Cap's yellow, on both iterations is STILL mostly worthless except in wave nodes or very occasionally in PvE.

Why use Psylocke now that Blade does pretty much everything she does... but better?

Why has IM40 not been updated considering his cheapest ability uses 13-23(!) AP and his ludicrously expensive blue uses 20-30(!!@!%@%) You're literally better off using 2* Storm's blue twice, it does more damage, and stuns for 4x the duration if you target a second person, and STILL USES LESS AP, not to mention that a lot of AP generation abilities are based around creating tiles that actively do match damage while fueling your abilities, not stunning yourself like a **** for 2 turns(I get that the game has changed but that kind of goes with my argument here)

But this has all been said a hundred times before and will probably keep coming up until everyone has been looked at, probably several times over.

To finish off on a less ranty note; At least characters are getting worked on, any character means progress. I'm in favor of changes like MNMags' update, regardless of what anyone else says, it made him feed his own abilities a whole lot better, rather than being a battery for some other character which makes him a far stronger character to have overall. I like that things are happening, I like the thought that every character is getting some love, even (or perhaps especially) the 1-2* because that's where most people are going to be spending the majority of their time, and those are the characters we're going to be seeing every week when they're buffed in PvE/PvP. Please don't ever, ever buff Ares, I'd argue his green is already too strong for the 2* bracket

Unknown

I think people need to realise that what the dev's write, and what they actually mean (or what happens) are not always the same. They don't seem to have any filter when it comes to forum posts, and this has led to confusion numerous times.

Just saying, quoting them direct and interpreting what they say probably won't do you any favours.

SnowcaTT

When I saw that quote originally, I also wondered "nothing done for the old characters?!?". Then I thought I might be reading to much into it.

Although - they also "justified" character rotation by saying it allowed them time to work on characters. No more rotation, so no more work?

I suppose when you are throwing a new character out there every other week it leads you to release brand new characters that folks think need nerfs (IF/SW) or that are simply terrible (QS/Vision). There is so little beta-test time for new characters, it's obvious they don't have any time to throw into old characters.

Solution: slow the rate of releases back to one a season again! (Ha ha ha ha! Sorry old characters, you are doomed.)

Unknown

You're reading far too much into a few words than was ever intended. This thread does a disservice to us all, discouraging any developer response for fear of neurotic forum reactions.

Mawtful wrote:

keeping it to "Nipping this in the bud, please don't rely on the spoiler thread for character information" would have sufficed.

No, it wouldn't. Then some people would say, "He didn't explicitly say there wasn't going to be a nerf. That must mean there's a nerf coming but they just don't want us to know until it comes," with thoughts of XForce and 4Thor in their minds.

Please don't turn any dev communication into a lose-lose situation for them. We win when they communicate, even if there are occasional misunderstandings.

Malcrof

Server issues aside, the Ultron event brought even retirees back to play. I have a feeling they are looking into some new PVE or other content to jumpstart interest for new people and vets alike, and maintaining focus on that to give us different things to work on, instead of messing with characters too much.

This is a hope anyway

Unknown

Malcrof wrote:

Server issues aside, the Ultron event brought even retirees back to play. I have a feeling they are looking into some new PVE or other content to jumpstart interest for new people and vets alike, and maintaining focus on that to give us different things to work on, instead of messing with characters too much.

This is a hope anyway

Love the optimism, and I hope that's the case, but at the same time, unless the coding is absolutely atrocious, It would literally take a few minutes to go through all the old characters and give them a bump to damage, or tweak a single ability on them. Do that somewhat consistently for the duration that this game is expected to be supported for and you'll be right where every pseudo competitive game was years ago.

Since half the time, ability damage doesn't update until partway through the level, I can imagine everything being in a massive database filled with manual entries, but if that's the case, then they need a new programmer.

Unknown

Ultron didn't bring any retirees back that I know off. It just added to their ranks with burn outs. Maybe just the ones I know I guess.

Malcrof

SlamDunc wrote:

Malcrof wrote:

Server issues aside, the Ultron event brought even retirees back to play. I have a feeling they are looking into some new PVE or other content to jumpstart interest for new people and vets alike, and maintaining focus on that to give us different things to work on, instead of messing with characters too much.

This is a hope anyway

Love the optimism, and I hope that's the case, but at the same time, unless the coding is absolutely atrocious, It would literally take a few minutes to go through all the old characters and give them a bump to damage, or tweak a single ability on them. Do that somewhat consistently for the duration that this game is expected to be supported for and you'll be right where every pseudo competitive game was years ago.

Since half the time, ability damage doesn't update until partway through the level, I can imagine everything being in a massive database filled with manual entries, but if that's the case, then they need a new programmer.

Ok, the way i see it is this.. everyone wants characters boosted to do more damage, yet everyone is also complaining about having to use health packs after every fight... you can't have both. Give the characters more damage, you will need MORE health packs in PVP and some PVE, and people will clamor for higher regen or more health packs, leave them alone, and people want them buffed to do more damage, round and round it goes.

It is a no win situation for the devs and the players.. they do 1, there is outrage, they do the other, there is outrage..

GrumpySmurf1002

Couple people already said it, but to me it is worth repeating. His comment was in response to threads about nerfing. Originally only 4* were mentioned, so by (faulty) logic some 3* could be nerfed (and specifically GSBW in this case). His comment translates roughly to:

We have no current plans for more nerfs, calm the bleep down

As far as your list, half the characters listed have been released/changed just in the last month or two, and a few more I wouldn't even agree are worth being on the radar.

Stax the Foyer

Malcrof wrote:

Ok, the way i see it is this.. everyone wants characters boosted to do more damage, yet everyone is also complaining about having to use health packs after every fight... you can't have both. Give the characters more damage, you will need MORE health packs in PVP and some PVE, and people will clamor for higher regen or more health packs, leave them alone, and people want them buffed to do more damage, round and round it goes.

It is a no win situation for the devs and the players.. they do 1, there is outrage, they do the other, there is outrage..

That's not how it works, though.

Increasing ability damage would significantly reduce the damage taken by players, and would improve their longevity. I understand why it might not be immediately intuitive, but when you unpack it it'll make more sense.

The player has several very significant advantages over the AI. The player controls which character is being targeted by both teams. The player can monitor AP gain and focus fire enemy characters who are close to being able to use their abilities. The player can strategically collect AP in a way that the AI can't, which means that the player is more likely to get abilities off before the AI will.

This isn't a game where the bulk of damage comes in via match damage, most damage taken is from abilities used, and most damage dealing abilities cost a good chunk of AP. Since the player is likely to be using abilities first, being able to down characters before they get off an ability, or before they get off their next ability, is where the real damage reduction is. Dead men call no storms. Increasing ability damage means that they hurt more when they get skills off, but it means that they're more likely to fire no skills off, or at least not fire off their big damage skills.

If you want to see that in action, you can see that the health changes (and to some extent, the boosted characters) have been the opposite of that. Reducing the proportional amount of damage done by abilities. And anecdotally, I've seen a significant increase in enemy ability usage, as have the other players that I've talked to. That's what's costing us healthpacks, and that's what's depressing PvP scores. If you were to swing the pendulum back the other way and increase ability damage relative to health pools, you'd see shorter matches with the players coming out less-scathed.

Malcrof

Stax the Foyer wrote:

Malcrof wrote:

Ok, the way i see it is this.. everyone wants characters boosted to do more damage, yet everyone is also complaining about having to use health packs after every fight... you can't have both. Give the characters more damage, you will need MORE health packs in PVP and some PVE, and people will clamor for higher regen or more health packs, leave them alone, and people want them buffed to do more damage, round and round it goes.

It is a no win situation for the devs and the players.. they do 1, there is outrage, they do the other, there is outrage..

That's not how it works, though.

Increasing ability damage would significantly reduce the damage taken by players, and would improve their longevity. I understand why it might not be immediately intuitive, but when you unpack it it'll make more sense.


This isn't a game where the bulk of damage comes in via match damage, most damage taken is from abilities used, and most damage dealing abilities cost a good chunk of AP. Since the player is likely to be using abilities first, being able to down characters before they get off an ability, or before they get off their next ability, is where the real damage reduction is. Dead men call no storms. Increasing ability damage means that they hurt more when they get skills off, but it means that they're more likely to fire no skills off, or at least not fire off their big damage skills.

I would agree with this, if every other day there wasn't an "AI is cheating, too many cascades, firing off too many abilities" thread posted.

Like i said, no win situation on both sides, but you make very valid points.

I for one get lucky cascades at times, and cringe, but try to work around it when the AI does, so no biggie for me on that one.

Stax the Foyer

Malcrof wrote:

I would agree with this, if every other day there wasn't an "AI is cheating, too many cascades, firing off too many abilities" thread posted.

Like i said, no win situation on both sides, but you make very valid points.

I for one get lucky cascades at times, and cringe, but try to work around it when the AI does, so no biggie for me on that one.

AI cascades are an interesting beast because they have such a disparate impact on win percentage. Getting a cascade as a player will pretty much ensure your victory, but your probability of winning any given match is already very high, so it doesn't help much. Just ends things a little quicker, with a little less damage taken.

On the other hand, AI cascades have a huge impact on the win probability of the AI, because the default win percentage outside of overscaled PvE nodes is tilted heavily in favor of the player. You play smarter, you pick your team, and you pick your battles. A sudden influx of AP is one of the only ways for the AI to overcome those advantages.

It turns the AI from a blind squirrel looking for a nut to a blind squirrel on meth with a pile of nuts. Much more dangerous. Increased match length increases the odds of an AI cascade, too, which is another downside to the relative power reduction brought about by the health increases.

That's probably why you see so many threads complaining about cascades. They're one of the main reasons why people lose, and losing is rare enough in this game (and painful enough in terms of resources), that it really stings.

EDIT: To your point in the upvote comment, the question of power increase isn't a question of characters being balanced relative to one another (which is an area where I'd agree the health increases helped), it's a question of the balance of overall health/damage ratios in view of the game mechanics. It's the rate of healthpacks needed versus games played, for example, or the increase in match length (both the average length and the widening of the distribution curve of match lengths) requiring more time per match and making shield hops riskier.

Malcrof

Stax the Foyer wrote:

It turns the AI from a blind squirrel looking for a nut to a blind squirrel on meth with a pile of nuts. Much more dangerous. Increased match length increases the odds of an AI cascade, too, which is another downside to the relative power reduction brought about by the health increases.

^ this.. just experienced on the lvl 395 hulk board in the current PVE, wiped hardcore the first try...hit him with CotS and he got to 30 green on his next turn due to anger cascades.. couple of claps and it was over...


Oddly enough

2nd try.. same team

Hoarded AP, denied hulk his, did not fire an ability until i had 9 doom trap tiles and his purple ready to fire, 2 CoTS's and 2 Thunderstrikes ready to go (3Thor)..

Killed him in 1 turn when i let loose, took forever to get to that point, but took very minimal damage, and IF black ticking away some hp each round. Only thor needed a health pack, as he took most of the match damage.

Using this as an example simply because the same match, 2 different tries, 2 different strategies, 2 very different outcomes.

I think strategy plays enough into it, that leaving most of the characters as they are now, especially with weekly buffed chars, is perfect.

Each week we get to see what different chars would be like if they did more damage. If they made them all higher damage, then it would take the fun out of weekly buffed chars and take away quite a bit of roster diversity and we are back to stale same fight after same fight PVP's

Stax the Foyer

Malcrof wrote:

Stax the Foyer wrote:

It turns the AI from a blind squirrel looking for a nut to a blind squirrel on meth with a pile of nuts. Much more dangerous. Increased match length increases the odds of an AI cascade, too, which is another downside to the relative power reduction brought about by the health increases.

^ this.. just experienced on the lvl 395 hulk board in the current PVE, wiped hardcore the first try...hit him with CotS and he got to 30 green on his next turn due to anger cascades.. couple of claps and it was over...


Oddly enough

2nd try.. same team

Hoarded AP, denied hulk his, did not fire an ability until i had 9 doom trap tiles and his purple ready to fire, 2 CoTS's and 2 Thunderstrikes ready to go (3Thor)..

Killed him in 1 turn when i let loose, took forever to get to that point, but took very minimal damage, and IF black ticking away some hp each round. Only thor needed a health pack, as he took most of the match damage.

Using this as an example simply because the same match, 2 different tries, 2 different strategies, 2 very different outcomes.

I think strategy plays enough into it, that leaving most of the characters as they are now, especially with weekly buffed chars, is perfect.

Each week we get to see what different chars would be like if they did more damage. If they made them all higher damage, then it would take the fun out of weekly buffed chars and take away quite a bit of roster diversity and we are back to stale same fight after same fight PVP's

That's kind of a bad example because Hulk anger cascades are preventable, as you learned.

Buffing character damage wouldn't make the weekly buffed characters less usable, they'd still get the weekly buff on top of that, and could still be the best choice to use.

TLCstormz

As someone who iscritically panned for "conspiracy theorizing" and "whining", I actually do think that you are jumping the fun with this one, Mawtful.

Their communicating with the community is very lackluster, correct? Why let what Kabir said get you THIS worried when 1) again, their communicative skills have never been amazing? and 2) he didn't even specify what he was talking about?

tanis3303

Mawtful wrote:

I'm honestly surprised by this quote. I think there's significantly important implications which don't exactly fill me with confidence.

This too shall pass.