Devs plz read. possible solution for nerf uproar?

doc8998

I've been playing MPQ for months now... I have loved this game, and it has helped keep me sane (and for that, I thank you,) after recovering from surgery over the past few months. My wife also has taken a real love to this game, and it's not uncommon for either of us to spend more time than we probably should on it on an almost daily basis.

That said, this most recent patch has caused quite the uproar on the boards, and I'm one of those that's in the group of feeling cheated with the Wolverine and Thor nerf. (Going to mention only one other thing besides the nerf in the recent patch at end of this.) Both my wife and I have spent much time and some money (things that most of your players hold precious,) into building what we wanted, and we were certain to continue spending more time and money into the game. We were advertised these 2 characters with a certain strength to their powers; to entice us into devoting said money and time into achieving those particular powers which the dev team later (much later) decided were too powerful... (Again, I personally disagree, considering who these characters are.) The nerfing has completely altered the experience... Negatively. While I agree that it seemed there was no variety going into PvP, this could be fixed simply by adding accessible, achievable cards that challenged people to reconsider their team, or even toughening up a few characters.

(I don't believe Thor and Wolverine were overpowered, personally, just overplayed. D3, you licensed the characters, these two happen to be two of the tougher characters in the Universe you wanted to build around... Wolverine's healing factor is a fluid thing, constantly at work. While it may have a hard time keeping up with mass damage, it doesn't lay dormant until he's half-dead... Perhaps the answer was lowering HOW MUCH it heals per turn...)

I get it, though, D3... It's your ball, your game, you can change the rules on the fly, or fix what you feel needs fixing. However, as a longtime gamer, when most games nerf a class or character, they do so with respect to their player base, and IMMEDIATELY reset the character or class' skills so the players can then find a way to better utilize this character or class within the new guidelines of the revised skillset. While many in the community want the nerf reversed, (again, myself included,) if the dev team feels these changes are an absolute for the sake of balancing, how about showing some GOOD WILL towards the many players who have devoted time, money, and word of mouth about your game?



In another thread, entitled "Respec option in the works? Dev please read," Demiurge_Will responded with the following.

"Hi, Liaomiao!

Thanks for the note. Re-spec is one of our most requested features (including internally to the team here), and we like making changes that everybody wants.

We have a design for it, and it's at the top of our backlog, but we can't give you an ETA. Bear in mind that, in addition to all the usual uncertainty of software development, for changes that require an app update, like this one, there's a long and unpredictable lead time between when we develop a feature and when it's in your hands.

We'll continue to make balance improvements in the meantime - both changes that make characters stronger and those that make them weaker - because balance issues are too important to the experience to leave them alone for that long. We'll try to keep you informed of our plans in that department, like we're doing here:"




Here's the issue. People are locked in with these two characters as they are post-update, and none too many are happy about it. Strategies they used have become barely passable, pve basic thugs are killing off these 85 characters far more frequently than what should be standard, people feel as if all that effort and cash they put into these characters has been wasted... Players have, with as long as Thor and Wolvie have been at this level of "overpowering," adapted to this, and have strategies for when they use them, or go against them; waiting to balance these 2 popular characters until a respec is available isn't going to ruin people's games as much as the nerf being instituted apparently has. You may believe that their balancing is more immediately necessary, but many of the players feel as if their effort (whether by time, money or a combination of both,) has gone to waste with NO WAY to possibly respec or feel as if they're getting enough in return for the loss of these characters if they opt to sell them off...

And the "buffed buyback" option is significantly under what it should be in order to make people feel whole. I can't find the thread, but someone pointed out that it's approx. HALF of the card's worth when you figure in what you'll need to put into the character to get him back to 85.

I believe a proposal that would make many a player mostly happy would be the following... "Un-Nerf" these two characters for the time being, with the understanding that they WILL go back to the nerfed versions when the respec ability is implemented... Again, this is pretty much a standard happening in most games that decide to nerf to balance competition. When respec becomes available, give each player the ability to respec each of these characters FREE of charge once.

Now, this idea isn't without one major pitfall... By already "funbalancing," and by offering the buffed buyback, many may have already sold off and spent their earnings elsewhere... In that case, a rollback could be an answer, although, probably not a very good one; This could cause even further uproar... (I don't envy the blowback that this nerfing has created by reading the boards here... Anger, (rightfully so,) refunds asked for thru whatever service, people quitting.) Deciding to nerf not one, but two of the most common 85s in the game isn't going to go without some sort of negativity.

The answer truly would have been forethought in what you were doing before you did it. Implemented mid-tournaments, after players have spent so much time in achieving these characters and building them up to what they saw as the best loadout based on your guidelines of their powers...and with no answer but to get hopping mad because something as COMMON as a respec option wasn't implemented BEFORE nerfing what may be the 2 characters most players build up first. (I'm actually jealous of my wife now... She wasn't sure how to deal with the card combinations initially and actually has a 5 in Thor's green, which was given a pretty solid upgrade.)


If, as Demiurge_Will states, that a respec option is one of their most requested features, move it to the front of the queue with high priority and reinstate Thor and Wolverine with the knowledge that they WILL be nerfed when the respec option is implemented AND in the same patch.

I'm not sure I have all the best thoughts on how to go about it, considering people have reacted over the past few days to the nerfing... If they've sold off, then there's an issue with them not having the card any longer to reinstate. If you were to rollback, people lose iso8, HP, card drops, victories in tournies, etc... However, perhaps with the database you do have, since its always online to play, a check of players' Thor and Wolverine cards on the day of the patch versus current date and roster could be used. Those that have sold off would get their card reinstated as it was, (whatever level that may be, as long as it is no longer part of their inventory,) with a respec option and get to keep whatever they had done with their "profit" when they sold off. Those that still have the cards, due to hesitation of having to rebuild 2 cards they had already spent time and money on, would get a "resupply compensatory package" along the lines of the free respec for the characters, 2 Heroic tokens (from current tournie, perhaps, or a combination of Heroic Tokens of some sort,), some decent amount of iso8 and HP. (not necessarily the same equivalent had they sold those two cards off completely, but enough that if they were to get some cards from the tokens they receive that they wanted to level, or help level other characters because of the Thor and Wolverine nerf, they could do so.)

(Unrelated, but I did want to mention that, unlike some posts I've read, I actually love the entry fee tournaments... Although I didn't have hero coins to join in this time around, I know I'll be stockpiling them as I earn them (if I can even earn any in tournaments any longer with 1/2 my 85s nerfed,) to join along... As long as this doesn't become a replacement for free tournies, and the rewards don't become so overbalanced it becomes crazy... But yes, the rewards should have some higher return.

Join in the conversation if you're so inclined, especially if you see any other sort of way that would be constructive in "fixing their fix". I'm not thinking mine's the best idea, (nor even entirely feasible,) that may be floating around out there, but thought I'd post thoughts on things that may help (if players are as serious as I've read,) save some players from leaving out of frustration, while still allowing for D3s idea of what should be balanced.

Thanks for reading,
Regards

Unknown

I find this to be an excellent post.

Also:

While I agree that it seemed there was no variety going into PvP, this could be fixed simply by adding accessible, achievable cards that challenged people to reconsider their team, or even toughening up a few characters.

This has been one of my biggest frustrations in playing this game - devs claim people want variety and balance, but people use these characters (Thor/Wolv) because they are accessible. Covers drop. The rarity with which 3-star covers drop for mid-tier players like me - and not for lack of effort, I have certainly played this game at pretty much every free moment for the past 3 months - is absurd. If you want players to have more varied teams, then give us more powerful characters with covers that drop with reasonable frequency instead.

Unknown

I do think they should respond to the growing list of complaints surrounding he last patch and ISO as well as make some kind of serious gesture of good will along with a solution that is amicable to both the developers and the customers. With regard to ISO and Hero point it costs them absolutely NOTHING. They are creating fake currency in a fake economy out of air. Kind of like what Bernanke does.

doc8998

kiyaar wrote:

I find this to be an excellent post.

Also:

While I agree that it seemed there was no variety going into PvP, this could be fixed simply by adding accessible, achievable cards that challenged people to reconsider their team, or even toughening up a few characters.

This has been one of my biggest frustrations in playing this game - devs claim people want variety and balance, but people use these characters (Thor/Wolv) because they are accessible. Covers drop. The rarity with which 3-star covers drop for mid-tier players like me - and not for lack of effort, I have certainly played this game at pretty much every free moment for the past 3 months - is absurd. If you want players to have more varied teams, then give us more powerful characters with covers that drop with reasonable frequency instead.

Thank you for finding the post worthwhile.

It's a frustrating situation... This was a game that could be enjoyed by both casual and serious gamers alike, without many penalties to the casual players. In my household, I'm fairly hardcore about gaming with an immense, almost embarrassing amount of games in my collection- I had intended to catch up on some games that I bought years ago, yet still sit sealed during my 4 months of recovery, but MPQ got its hooks in me, and I've raved about it to friends and family alike, hardcore and casual alike. My wife, on the other hand is extremely casual about games, sticking mostly with hidden object style games, games that she can enjoy in 15 minutes of free time, and she's fallen in love with MPQ, as well. However, with the nerf, Thor and Wolv are her 2 highest rated characters- 85 and 77, I believe. For her to be unable to respec, just to re-run Wolverine will take serious amounts of time spread over many more days than it would take myself. (and I still believe it will take a good amount of time, even, like yourself devoting mass amounts of time over past 3 months or so... I had a very specific layout in mind, so even with a higher % of Wolverine and Thor drops, oftentimes, when you're getting to the "end" of your skillset, you end up with a green hero card when you needed a red, so it ends up sold off.)

The idea that there's these 2 cards that are "overpowered" is, IMHO, wrong. And having them drop with a little more frequency than others is a GOOD thing, especially for players like my wife, who wants to continue enjoying the game, and gets access to at least 2 powerful cards quickly, that will allow her to enjoy the tournaments, even going against players who have a larger selection of high-tier characters. (And what's funny is, after the nerf, she's now playing more than myself... I'm playing a few rounds a day, but to be honest, I'd play 6-7 rounds, if not more in a SITTING.)

I agree, the high star characters should drop with slightly more frequency... I get it, they SHOULD be rare and should be hard to achieve, but like you, I have been spending nearly every free moment with this game, and with 4 months of sitting on my butt, I'm willing to bet I've put in a lot more time than even some of the most devoted fans... With little results in grabbing some of those cards... A week-long story tournament (the Hulk one,) I took first in, simply because I had no work, and was at home all day with not much to do, (unless I actually started playing other games.) I'd set my alarm an hour or so before each section of the tournie would end, and play simply through willing myself to grab first and feel I had something to shoot for with all this time off.

I just find a lot of this easily avoidable without resorting to nerfing... I even, in another thread I started when I first signed up on these boards, offered up ideas on 3 characters they could implement as "counter-cards"... Cards that could help mitigate damage by powerful characters who weren't overpowered, but powered similarly to what you'd expect from a Wolverine or Thor, based on their mythos. (Pasting the ideas from that post at the end... I don't think these are necessarily polished, but they were off the top of my head... I felt that in the name of balancing, if that was what it was, that the "3 try rule of diminishing returns" should be brought back, but your first attempt at attacking someone shouldn't tell you who your opponents were. simply a "easy/difficult/deadly" warning.... Imagine not knowing which heroes you're fighting... You'd have to actually THINK about the group you send in... do you go all out offense, all out "counter" or some variation on both? I also felt that entering a tournament you get to choose the 3 characters you want to represent you in the tournament when you're not actively controlling it, and that this was the team you were stuck with, unless you wanted to pay up in iso8 to make a roster change to that group.)

There's quite a bit that can be done to balance the game without the players shouldering the fallout of D3s decisions on changes... While continuing to show good will towards the community that's supporting what was an INCREDIBLE game. I still have no idea what was going through their minds when they were set to release, knowing the type of game that it was, and that characters may need to be rebalanced, and didn't have a respec ability already in place at release... They're asking for money (rightfully so, even in a FTP game... in-app purchases are expected, they ARE a company, and they do need to make some return on it,) but respeccing is so INCREDIBLY common in games that acknowledge there may be balancing issues... The brunt of this oversight has fallen squarely on the player, especially when their current answer fails to make any player feel complete at the end of the day.

Adding a "hard" mode to the Dark Reign campaign, then instituting different cards in place of Hawkeye, Widow, Juggernaut, etc shouldn't be difficult, allowing players to replay and earn different cards, ones I would suggest would be "counter-cards" or more rare cards, while allowing to keep Thor and Wolverine as they are.

As someone who's potentially staring down the barrel of possibly 2 more surgeries... ones that could also land me homebound for 4 months at time on each one, I'd love to be able to continue playing this game... But as is, it's lost a whole bunch of interest... the nerfing is aggravating, but the inability to respec is well above the "aggravating" line... At current playing, I have been building Ares up. (have the level 85 max available, currently have him at 74.) but two things bug me as I play him. With the nerf in place, it's becoming almost ridiculously hard to beat common thugs at a similar level (using Thor/Wolvie @ 85, and Ares at 74.) without spending iso8 on boosts... I refuse to pay 100 coins on the "stockpile," but will buy others with iso8, which is costing me leveling, as it seems that (and I may be mistaken,) boosts worth having are dropping a tad less frequently. The other thing that bothers me is that as I play through with Ares, it's looking like he may find himself on a list of nerfable characters, and I really don't want to go through this anymore if theres not going to be any respect shown to the fanbase without a respec option.

I sincerely hope that some of the changes in the last patch are addressed; many complaints about a lot of them, and I'm in the group that finds that many detract from what was an extremely fun and addicting experience.

Here were some ideas for "counter cards," with the idea that they would mitigate damage by heavy hitters, -or- in some cases, delay those heavy hitters from attempting their powers for a couple rounds, attempting to balance weaker characters against the stronger by buying them more time or spreading the damage thin... Again, all off the top of my head, without a ton of thought of how it may also affect balancing, but the *thought* of how to compensate for heavy hitters without nerfing characters that are "true to their myth" is there, as well as avoiding aggravating a player base that has devoted so much effort into building characters they wanted at the skillset they thought they were getting.

Nightcrawler

"Nick of Time": (passive skill, needs to be filled, but empties when activated): When a teammate is targeted by a super power, NC teleports them to safety but not without a nick or two. Opponent's power does half damage, and is split between NC and character he saves. If NC is the frontline character, he teleports to the back of the line and only receives 1/4 damage. (In other words, Wolverine gets targeted by a 2000 power... the power is halved to 1000, NC and Wolvie split that to 500 apiece, while the 3rd character then moves to the front row.)

"Stealthy Swashbuckler": When activated, NC teleports behind the enemy, placing 2 critical tiles on the board where he wishes. these 2 critical tiles may not occupy the same column, row, nor be adjacent to one another.

Dark Phoenix

"Insatiable Hunger": When activated, for the next 3 rounds, if Jean is targeted by an opponents power, she takes no damage, and instead gains half of that powers' AP. If that AP does not match a color of hers, it is allocated to "Rise from the Ashes". If "Rise from the Ashes" has been used already, will allocate to her 3rd power (attack of some sort)

"Rise from the Ashes": (Passive once AP is filled, will only activate once per match) If Jean falls in combat, a 3 turn countdown begins. If, at the end of 3 turns, her team still stands, she rises like the Phoenix, restored of 1/2 (maybe a 1/3) of her hit points, and "Insatiable Hunger" activated. (tile matches still do damage in "Insatiable Hunger", just super powers would not.)

Emma Frost

"Confusion": When activated, for the next 3 rounds, if an opponent attempts to use a damage based super power, the damage is spread among all 3 opponents, (maybe even all 6 players on the board,) as the attacker cannot tell friend from foe. Switching to "Diamond Form" or being hit with a super power ends "Confusion".

"Diamond Form": When activated, Emma switches to Diamond Form for the next 3 rounds. Any damage based power is reflected back at the opponent at half strength, and Emma cannot use "Confusion" (nor any other mental based attacks if there was a 3rd power) while in "Diamond Form". However, Emma causes 20% more damage on blue matches.

Again, thanks for reading.
Regards

doc8998

Here's yet another quick "act of good faith" towards the player base that would cost nothing, yet give players something to take the edge off...
Give every player 2 free character slots now that (at least for the ones that have kept the 2 characters,) that they can use as placeholders to rebuild these two cards, yet still keep the 85s to stay active in tournies until they finish rebuilding Yhor & Wolverine... It doesn't really help those that have sold off, but at least it's something. I still stand by the nature of the original post in this thread, however. Nerfing the characters, then having no way to respec 2 of the most popular, and populous heroes seems extremely poorly planned, with the current return on investment being offered far too low, ESPECIALLY when everything else has seemed to cost more. You should have a vested interest in making people feel whole when you're telling them you're changing what they set a goal for, then spent effort and cash into achieving.

Regards

Psile

These are smart, common sense solutions that take into account the dev's difficult position and aren't just angry screams for constant free stuff. There should be some kind of dev response to this thread, if only to encourage this kind of constructive and understanding input and criticism.

Unknown

Very well written post. Heck, you even spent time and effort into writing up a nice post, along with all the time and money spent on the game. I suppose they did deserve our support until they screwed us over. It was a great game, I agree.

I completely agree with you but I've already lost faith in the developers. They don't care about our money. Developers have zero respect for our time and money.
However, if we all stopped spending money, I bet the developers will change their attitude quick-style and do whatever is necessary to get their customers back.

doc8998

Thank you for the responses. I do hope the devs take time to read this, I'd like to think I've taken the time to see both sides of the story, but believe me, it's getting harder to remain level-headed at times...

It's becoming more and more difficult to enjoy this game as is... What I originally downloaded was an incredible game. It was nice to have a game where you could scratch an itch for a few rounds in 15 minutes or so in the pve events, and longer when your time permitted.

As it stands, playing today, I've seen more losses than victories, I think. Perhaps a run of bad luck, but I truly believe this last patch wrecked many a thing in it. It's getting tiresome going into a pve match against common thugs with characters that are supposed to be super heroes and coming out on the losing end as often as I've seen in since the patch... "funbalanced" is perhaps the most ironic title I've encountered in a patch title EVER. After review, I'm not so sure I'd change my 5/5/3 Wolvie, but Thor, where I have at 5/5/3 is almost kind of funny to me... I may be wrong, but he doesn't seem necessarily powered down as much as I initially believed, considering the red to yellow chain that was originally there almost seems weaker than the yellow to green chain they've replaced it with (A FEELING ONLY, did not research it,) But that green hits hard and effects the entirety of the other team, while the red and yellow that were nerfed were locked on for one target apiece, I'm not going to research the tile-replacement the powers do, but seems more like a transfer between the colored powers... It truly is feeling more and more like a cash grab than anything.

The position I've found myself in was having 2 Thor cards, a Wolvie Card, and a Hood card in the holding pattern, and the question of... "I have enough HP to open another slot to start rebuilding Thor, but WHY should I have to?" If I sell him off to rebuild, it takes me out of the Thor tournie currently being run. The answer was to get rid of a card to open up a spot to start a new variation with Thor slotted with 5 in the green category... Unfair of this to be asked of from myself or ANY member of the the MPQ community.

I've spent some time offering up what I thought were FAIR TO ALL PARTIES answers on how to correct this... Whether Feasible or not, I'm unsure without hearing from a dev. It's frustrating to watch this unfold with so much being taken from the player, being forced upon the player to shoulder the burden of how to figure out how to fix something that D3 screwed up... (Really? almost 4 months of release, plus development time, and NOW it's caught that these two were "overpowered?" (quoted because I don't believe for a second that they were.)) Yet, when they go back to correct the problem, approximately half of card's value was offered as a return on your time and possibly money.

The nickel and diming I'm seeing is out of control... It ALMOST has seemed lately that things have been made tougher simply to force people into using their powerups so they'd run low and have to spend into them... I know I'm not a spring chicken any longer, but I don't recall ever having to use this many powerups against similarly leveled characters just to think I have a chance...

(I've also read the defense that this game is considered "beta" or "work in progress," which also invalidates complaints about the nerfing...
The answer to this is no, no it doesn't...

See, when reputable companies open a beta and ask you to spend cash within the beta, they generally open the cash drawer waiting for you to spend on things that they are certain to remain in-game, once completed. I recently bought into the closed beta of "Loadout," which is a FTP 3rd person arena shooter, very similar to Team Fortress 2... The buy-in and cash you could drop earned you their currency and taunts, I believe even outfits and styles... all things that once the game went live (earlier this week,) you got to keep and were NOT taken away from you... Buying into characters in MPQ should have meant that when balancing occurred, you would be able to respec... However, D3 seems to believe the problem is yours to solve, not theirs... At least via action.

I still stand by list of things I've spent time considering here as fair to all involved, and a way to keep the community thriving, instead of angering them and feeling as if they have to shoulder the responsibility of restarting characters they had already poured tons of time and money into.

I looked earlier today, and between my wife and I we had pumped just shy of $100 into this game... Sure, some went into character slots, but much more went into buying cards and in a few rare cases, some iso8 to level up... you guessed it, the cards they nerfed.

Wish I was more constructive with my posts tonight, however after the experiences I had within game today... A game I could pick up and play for an hour straight or even longer without feeling the need to pay up in order to continue on in tournies, I was only able to do in 3 or 4 short intervals of half that time, losing matches I normally would have won outright in both the pve and pvp tournies... Don't get me wrong, when I go up against 3 other super heroes/ villains, I expect theres a chance I can lose, especially when they're similarly leveled. (But feel I hover around the 70-80% win ratio even then.) whereas today I was bringing in Thor/Wolvie @ 85 and Ares at 77, or 85 Classic Storm, and pulling in at around 40%, even with boosts, against pve enemies that were only slightly higher in level, and in pvp against players that had characters that were carrying one 85, a mid 70, and as low as a 45... Perhaps it was just a run of bad tile drops, but it was far too common than I'd care to admit... It was embarrassing to the point where I almost felt like the MPQ Gods hated me. Characters Id bring in that needed the Green, Yellow, Red or Blue tiles would see boards filled to the brim with purple and black and blue (of course that blue wouldn't be there when I brought along Storm, lol.)

My personal opinion is this last patch needs to go bye-bye soon, and deeper thought given to how future patches are implemented whilst keeping their customer base happy... I'm still in disbelief that these 2 characters, as popular as they are were nerfed without any sort of respec option available.

Regards

doc8998

The following was originally intended for another thread, but I felt it went off-topic, but still thought it showed a growing frustration on my part and didn't want to lose it, but the subject matter seems to fit better here, anyway...






As someone, (I hope,) looking at both sides of the fence on this, I understand the devs need to make adjustments when things seem unbalanced, but also feel that the way things are, the customers have every right to complain... Profusely.

Here's why: As someone who games more often than I'd care to admit, in almost every game I've played where character balancing issues are an ever-changing thing, I can't think of one, (off the top of my head,) that has balanced/ nerfed a character/ class without allowing their player base the ability to respec to readjust to the now change in class and strategy. It's pretty much a given. Thor and Wolverine were two of their most popular and populous characters, ones that almost everyone owned and chose to level up (if in their roster,) first, or very high up on that list. The Devs didn't FORCE anyone to pump money into these characters, but they offered that chance, and once nerfed, offered approximately half their value back. (I have to take what I've read others say as that "pay-off, I haven't had the time nor the want to look into it to proclaim this equation as gospel.... I'm also going to say that I DON'T believe either of these characters were overpowered, based on WHO they were within the Marvel Universe... They're SUPPOSED to be powerful.)

In my case, recovering from surgery for the past 4 months, I've leveled 4 characters to 85, with a 5th **ALMOST** there.... There are MANY who haven't had the time on their hands to offset the fact that they may have had ALL, or more than half their 85s nerfed with no way to fully feel "whole" in the "buffed" buyback. Yet others, due to lack of playing time, may have pumped more MONEY into leveling these characters. (My wife and I are both players, her with far less time on her hands than I, as on top pf recovering from surgery, we have a 7 month old who I cannot help with as much due to said surgery.) But we have spent, between the two of us, somewhere in the vicinity of $80. Mostly on character slots and gambling on rare cards, but other things, as well.

Time and money are things very precious to most, and D3 carries a burden to respect that when they make changes such as this. They've admitted to having a respec option on the table as an idea...



"In another thread, entitled "Respec option in the works? Dev please read," Demiurge_Will responded with the following.

"Hi, Liaomiao!

Thanks for the note. Re-spec is one of our most requested features (including internally to the team here), and we like making changes that everybody wants.

We have a design for it, and it's at the top of our backlog, but we can't give you an ETA. Bear in mind that, in addition to all the usual uncertainty of software development, for changes that require an app update, like this one, there's a long and unpredictable lead time between when we develop a feature and when it's in your hands.

We'll continue to make balance improvements in the meantime - both changes that make characters stronger and those that make them weaker - because balance issues are too important to the experience to leave them alone for that long. We'll try to keep you informed of our plans in that department, like we're doing here:"



Fact is, People had adjusted and planned for where Thor and Wolverine sat BEFORE the patch... Waiting until implementing a respec option to nerf these two characters would have prevented the firestorm on the boards that have occurred... Honestly, how many people were dropping the game prior to the nerf because Thor and Wolvie were "overpowered," as opposed to those that very well may be dropping the game afterwards. (I don't proclaim to know the numbers, but I've seen numerous players state this through reading the boards.)

THAT said, I'm not stating the Devs don't have the right to rebalance as they see fit to keep things competitive... What I am saying is, these balancing issues should take a backseat for the moment, ESEPCIALLY considering who these characters are in terms of popularity, common to people's rosters, and who they were in Marvel canon. They should be busting tail to get what's a STANDARD (respec option) among games that balance their classes out into the game before doing so.. In the meantime, players have had 4 months of play to develop strategies to fight these characters when they come up on pvp battle... I've never once felt cheated going up against these 2 pre-nerf, and with a combo of defensive gathering and mass damage to Wolvie, they really AREN'T that hard to take down.

People feel cheated, especially when they dropped real money into powering up a power that was advertised to be what it was at the time of purchase. They paid for Thor's red and yellow to do the damage and tile drops it stated at the time... They should not be being asked to start from scratch because D3 didn't have the forethought to add such a common thing as a respec even BEFORE the game was launched.

The answer, as standing, is for them to drop a bunch of shiny iso8 and HP to somehow compensate for the player's time, effort, and money, and it does not match up... The players should be able to be made to feel whole again. Many are grabbing the payoff before it leaves the table in order to get SOMETHING for their cards. (I wouldn't even consider it for Wolverine for no other reason than I wouldn't rebuild him in any other matter. My only beef with him is that it's almost AGAINST Marvel canon now... Wolverine's healing factor isn't a willed thing, it's fluid, always at work, and if you want to take him down, you need to hit him with mass damage... He SHOULD be healing every round without a tile match to activate after 50% of his health is gone... Personally, though, I would have just reduced the amount he heals per turn.)

As is, I've kept Wolvie, with no intention of selling him off... Thor, on the other hand, at 5/5/3 is far from the God I put together to play with and developed my style around... Sure, he's still viable, but this is NOT what I invested my time in. As of last night, I still have not sold him off, but did sell off Yelena who was wasting a character spot, and drop 2 Thor cards into it to begin rebuilding him so I can still keep the 85 in the current tournament. It's a choice I, or others SHOULD NOT have been put in the position to make...

Anybody who has sold off because they feel they need to rebuild, grabbing maybe half the worth of the card (or half the worth of their time and money,) have every right to be PO'd... Sure, it may seem redundant to read over and over again, but it's certainly well within their right... To rebuild a character, you're going to have to start with getting at least one of each color (just using Thor as the example in this,) card. Not overly difficult, I've already grabbed 2. The HP "cashout" they offer on a fully loaded 85 Thor is 550 HP... Enough to immediately level ONE power, as it costs 500. So let's assume you have all 3 cards, and use that 550 to buy one power. That leaves you with 9 more "card-ups". If you choose to go the fast route, to get your roster back to having it's 85, you're gonna drop $40 into their pockets to do so immediately, plus the time invested in iso8 to finish leveling, as from what is my understanding, isn't enough from what they've given you. The iso8 you're earning along the way is all iso8 that could have been used on other characters. Just WAITING to get the Thor cards you'll need is going to be a timesink MANY do not have, nor should they be asked to do when they could be leveling elsewhere in their roster. And remember, at the beginning, almost any Thor card gathered is a good thing, but as you near "endgame" of leveling, you're going to end up seeing cards you don't even need or want while you keep your fingers crossed for those last 2 or 3 PARTICULAR colored cards.

There is SOOO many options that D3 could put on the table to rectify the situation that they haven't chosen to do, leaving the fallout on the player to fix... Give everyone the option to respec, give them one each of the covers and a payout that brings them whole, give them 2 free roster spots... But it's the lack of a respec option that is most under my skin... Why should ANYONE have to replay rolling a character they've already rolled? Why should someone have to sell their cover and adversely affect their roster for tournies and enjoyment, when one, or both of those characters might represent the whole of their top tier players? (Such as my wife, who plays daily, but has very little freetime to do so.)

If D3 wishes to allow players to PAY to up their cards powers, people are paying for what was advertised, and NOT getting a return on that purchase any longer... With no way to make it whole... If you're going to allow real world money to come into the game for powers, there needs to be a way to make players whole when you change that power out.... a RESPEC; something offered in nearly every game where balancing is an ever-changing thing.

Imagine buying a brand new car, with 6-CD changer, MP3/ iPod hookup listed in the purchasing price... you take it in for it's first checkup, and when they bring it back, your sound system has been replaced with an 8-track player, and the response you were given was, "Sorry, we realized that your sound system wasn't supposed to be in that asking price, so we swapped it out... If you want, you can have it back, but you're going to have to give us more money..." (Maybe 8-track is wrong... how about cassette player?)

I point to "Loadout" a FTP 3rd person shooter that just entered Free/Open stage this week... If you paid into it early, anything that you could spend money into were things they were NOT going to change, there was no worry about spending into something that might be taken away from you... If you paid into characters in MPQ, you shouldn't have to worry about the fact that if they change something, that something is IRRETRIEVABLY lost... And it's all so very simple... respec should have been part of the base game before it was ever released, even in a beta/ trial version. If there was no respec from the outset, D3 shouldn't have been so willing to allow real world money to be spent directly into something they thought could be changed with no way to make people feel as if they could be made whole if D3 did change it.

Thanks for reading,
Regards

doc8998

As each day passes, I see more and more of every other thing besides the Thor and Wolverine nerf that bothers me, and I STILL try to keep in mind that D3 is a company that needs to make a return on this game... Some mini-thoughts (or, at least they're intended to be...) to begin with.

1) It's feeling more and more like Thor wasn't entirely "nerfed" as much as he was just swapped out from red-yellow, to yellow-green chains... Sure, there's some other slight changes in there, but this is beginning to appear more disingenuous and more of a way to get players to start over... How quickly after the player base hits 3/5/5 will he get nerfed again?

2) Matches previously won handily, decided by the "human factor," whereas players could jump into a battle with 3 85s against say... 3 level 100 "thugs" could be won without a single boost, have become passably winnable, even with a boost involved.

3) Previously, in matches where boosts (at least in my use of a "safety net") were generally considered a good idea... going against supervillains of a higher level to give you a good chance of winning, are now giving much worse odds at winning...

4) boosts costing 200 for 3, being used for 3 matches, with say 70 return, possible 140... if you were to use those boosts throughout the tournament and receive 3 straight 70s... you've made a whopping 10 iso8, and possibly lost a health pack or two along the way... payoffs are far too low for the ... sorry, the word was "balancing"... Leveling characters was perhaps SLIGHTLY quick, but I didn't believe overly so.

5) you had a great game going until what appears to be pure and simple greed took over. Was it a growing player base? a realization that with more people + more charges = lining your coffers quick in an industry where mobile games generally don't have a long time to make money with very few exceptions?

Here's the lowdown... you're making most of these superheroes look weak in some of these matches... Common thugs shouldn't be as much of a challenge as they've become. The level of challenge they were at prior was perfect... Not because they were easy (which they often were easy with just proper preparation... At lower levels, just some swipes of the board w/o any kind of forethought- some still are.) but they were great ways to also introduce up n coming gamers like my nephew some basic strategy when entering a game.

When you're going to use something as popular as the Marvel Universe nowadays, with the mass successes of the Iron Man, Thor, Captain America, Avengers movies, you're going to grab a lot of young players who, even at a young age, enjoy match-3 games. This match-3/ battle hybrid game is one you helped pioneer, and part of its charm was in taking something that was as casual as a match-3 and ramping it up to something just a step or two above.

As a match-3, you're going to grab the attention of casual gamers, like my wife...

As a combination of match-3, "battling" and combining the Marvel Universe, you're going to grab attention from even hardcore gamers that went in to, at the very least, "just give it a go."

And boy, you grabbed attention... you truly have something that appeals to all ages, gamers, non-gamers, and players of all levels....

There was a certain amount of fun to be had, not just when you yourself leveled up a character, or grabbed a card you were looking for, or took a certain spot in a tournie, but one that when shared among the others in your household who also played, was even MORE fun. "I just hit 85 with Thor!" or "I got the last xxxx card I've been trying to grab!"

A LOT of this is being sucked away as you grab for everything you can (seemingly, despite whatever your intentions may be,) as I try to tell a youngster who worked hard for that yellow Thor card, while visiting me at my home while I recuperated, that he's going to have to spend a lot more time and at least some measure of luck to rebuild this card. (Heck, it's hard telling MYSELF that.)

I played hours on end to get my cards where they were, and spent money on a plethora of things within game... And I look at having to rebuild a card that I had already devoted my effort into, and not that it's daunting... it's stupid. Every day since the nerf I've begun playing less and less... Everything costs more, and what I'm trying to accomplish... SOMETHING I ALREADY HAD... And could be fixed EASILY by you... I would stand perfectly content with my original suggestion of "going back," and instituting the nerf once you get that respec rolled out...

I find it interesting that my wife, the true non-gamer involved, is the only one who plays with any sort of regularity now... and even that's dwindling.

Stepping back, looking at this from the players' perspective might open your eyes to how you've taken a FANTASTIC product and "funbalanced" it to almost entirely serve you.

I'm sure you've heard it across the boards... The near $100 you got from me and my wife, (I'm not sure how much my nephew was allowed to spend, but I did give him $30 towards app store as part of his Christmas... unsure of what his parents have or haven't allowed.) was the last you'll see from us, and I'm fairly certain my nephew won't be allowed to spend any further into MPQ any longer either now. At least not until I can see some turnaround that actually seems to benefit your players.

That said, I'm not backing down from stating, you SHOULD be making money from this fine game...

Paid tournies I believe were an excellent idea.

Pay to respec (although I believe a character should be allowed a free respec when you nerf them hard,)

Charging for things people want... Imagine charging to buy outright a character you NEED for a weeklong event? A guaranteed Daredevil or Patch Wolvie... It could lead to more sales for people to open roster spots... Heck, I'd even say not a guaranteed "necessary character," but a boost in % to draw that character from the heroic token pile for that event...

Charge for an 2X iso8 reward for matches played over 2 days... (you could even say, 2X iso8 for two days or until you use your first health pack)

If you're going to charge iso8 for boosts, PLEASE rework this... charge 300 for 9 or something similar... the payback in iso8 just isn't enough.

There are SO many thing you could charge that people would WANT that wouldn't give an unfair advantage, but you've chosen to charge to make players feel they HAVE to pay up to stay relevant.

Thanks for reading
Regards

Unknown

Really don't think they are reading any of this or any other thread at this point. It has become more than evident they don't give a flying pigs anus now they have our money. From now on when someone asks who the worst gaming companies are my reply will be Funcom followed by D3 Publisher.

doc8998

justaplayer wrote:

Really don't think they are reading any of this or any other thread at this point. It has become more than evident they don't give a flying pigs anus now they have our money. From now on when someone asks who the worst gaming companies are my reply will be Funcom followed by D3 Publisher.

Yeah, I'm losing faith daily... It's a shame, because I've always enjoyed the PQ series, own them all through Steam... Grabbing the Marvel license had me psyched, as did the first few months of gameplay... This, however, is quickly becoming a travesty.

Can't think of a single thing as of late that was actually done with the players best interests in mind.

Too bad, Not looking forward to deleting this from my phone, but it's quickly looking like that's what's in store for MPQ.

Regards

doc8998

... And, in a twist of irony, picked up a cheap-o PS3 game on impulse today called "Dark Sector," which had gotten decent reviews...

And the splash screen immediately read "D3 Publishers"

Can't.... escape...

Unknown

doc8998 wrote:

... And, in a twist of irony, picked up a cheap-o PS3 game on impulse today called "Dark Sector," which had gotten decent reviews...

And the splash screen immediately read "D3 Publishers"

Can't.... escape...

Lol... that's funny. How's the game?

doc8998

Well, grabbed it used, pre-trophy support, so pretty early gen, so all I really did was load it up & play about 15 mins to make sure it ran fine. Reviews were above average, concerning an agent who gets some super-mutation that allows him a "Glaive," (giant throwing star that returns- weapon from movie Krull.) the little bit I played has me wanting to go further, gunplay was decent, but didn't get the Glaive yet... Because I have about 8 games in-session, atm... Lego Marvel, Remember Me, Aliens: Colonial Marines (PC) DMC, Shadow Warrior, Borderlands 2 (PC). Promised myself I'd finish Remember Me first (underrated, pretty fun so far) but I have a game collection that's at a size that's almost literally unbelievable, (probably never finish them before I die, lol, especially w/ a 7mos old added to my family,) so I go thru phases, and w/ MPQ keeping my interest as long as it had astonished me- and I could still see myself going back if they just started backtracking to when it was FUN. As it stands, returning to the massive beast of a collection I do own is my gain, their loss... Maybe the wife will stop getting on me about the sheer amount of games I've had for years that I haven't even removed the plastic from lol.
Really loving the Lego Marvel... Pretty certain the lego Thor & Wolvie could take post-nerf versions from MPQ lol

doc8998

From another thread I answered in... After I paste it, I'm actually going to post a second reply that features one other thought about a possible other idea of how to get things feeling fair... even though its at the end of this extensive post, I don't want I tlost as you read, gonna post JUST that idea...



"Believe me, I have sympathy for the devs... Their hands are full, I'm sure, and not much positive has been being said on their behalf recently... If you read some of the threads/ posts I've started or responded to, I GENERALLY try to see both sides of the coin. (Admittedly, some of my later posts have gone from attempting to see both sides to some venting, but it hasn't changed the fact that I understand they need to turn profit, but I still stand by some things that frustrate me to no end.)

1) This is the type of game that a respec system should have been in place from the get-go... I'm not going to get into the number of games I have, but it's extensive... unbelievably so. And I have yet to encounter one that has a "dynamic" adjustment system for balancing that doesn't include this very basic feature... heck, I'd even call it an expected feature in place. And when wholesale changes are made to a character/ class, a free respec is given, with the character/ class in question being reset to 0, and the player being made whole again by allowing to change to better fit that character into it's newly designed skillset.

2) The return on Thor/ Wolverine (I AM in the group that doesn't believe they were overpowered... Thor actually seems less like his change was for overpowering, as swapping from red-yellow chain to yellow-green chain isn't that much different in power... It does seem as if the "overpowering" was fixed not as much as the change in power as it was in the fact that most players went with a 5/5/3 to now aiming for a 3/5/5... but that's mostly my opinion... My wife actually had Thor already set up with a 5 in green (she's not much of a gamer, and kind of just went in adding the cards as she earned them, and thanks to a nerf that hasn't really affected her as far as Thor, she's raking it in atm.)

3) The return on the nerf was approx. 1/2 the character's value, (based off what I've read, I'm not sitting down and doing the math, lol) For players who pumped money into leveling Thor's powers, they aren't getting what they paid for, nor have they been given a viable return on what they invested in that was advertised. For those that didn't pay actual cash into leveling the powers, they're now being asked to invest time and effort into a character they already spent doing so... And with the recent change in economy, it's going to take even longer... To create a character they already had...

4) if players wish to rebuild the character/s... And playing devil's advocate, let's say they sell off Thor and/ or Wolverine to earn the "buffed" sale price... They first need to get one of each color via drops or rewards. They'll have enough HP from the sale to level one power... so 4 points to start, that leaves 9 more points they have to account for. If they want immediate openings for these powers (due to no respec,) and choose to purchase HP (remember, this game involves many a casual player who, just by nature, may not have the time nor want to just keep hoping they "place" for a card reward, or earn it via a drop,) that's 4500 HP needed PER character. (if my math's wrong, please correct.) so on top of any money they may have spent initially, MPQ would be asking them to drop, at minimum, $30 for one character... this doesn't include the iso8 they're still going to be shy of... that's coins ONLY... They can get a "bigger" discount if they chose to sell off both, at $55. (again, assuming they want to go an immediate route to "open" the powers.) Then comes the timesink into earning the iso8, which they've already done... I'm not sure what that would add up to in cash if they choose to just pay it out...

5) If they choose NOT to sell off, but wish to rebuild Thor/ Wolvie, yet want to keep them to play in events with until they can rebuild these characters, this means opening a hero slot up and starting from scratch on everything they've already done for a character...

For some, like my wife, who is very casual in gaming, these 2 characters represented her two 85s... These players are stuck in no-win situations with these two characters. (Often the first 2 characters players opt to hit 85 with,) Most beta/ preview games that offer "buy-ins" of real world money, ensure that these buy-in extras are things that will remain with the player even as balancing occurs- things that will NOT be altered, in order for the player to be treated fairly as adjustments are made... Buying into "Loadout" recently, I was given unique taunts/ costumes/ etc that the devs keep in the game even after release, although they may no longer be available upon final release... a "reward" to show that you helped in the early versions of the game. This is something D3 should have ensured by not even having a HP purchase available within the card itself for these characters' powers if they were concerned about balancing. (Again, I truly didn't find either overpowered, was just bored seeing them as part of every roster... The (IMHO) best answer would have been to buff up some other characters... up Iron Man from 50 to 85, for example, or make some other characters more achievable or accessible that would make players challenge who they placed in their roster for events. The answer D3 chose cost players money they've spent, and may cost them more depending on how they choose to go about responding to this nerf... Who's to say that D3 doesn't turn around and find that the "new and improved" Thor's chain of yellow-green isn't out of balance? It's certainly, (again, IMHO,) close enough to the red-yellow, that it certainly seems reviewable, especially now that green was upped in power and now affects all other opponents, as well, whereas red-yellow were single target attacks.

I have a "Devs, please read, possible answer to uproar?" thread started where I gave some thoughts on how to make it fair to all parties involved... Granted, towards the end of the thread, there's a bit more venting than thoughts, but my personal thought was to revert these characters back, (please read other thread, I DID account for how to handle players who had sold off, I'm giving a very short version here,) to their original status with the understanding that these 2 characters WOULD be nerfed in the same patch they introduced the respec. The devs have claimed (there's a quote in that thread from Dev Will, I believe,) where he states its at the top of the list of things they want to add- requested frequently by both players and devs alike. Thor and Wolvie have had these powers forever, it seems... players had their own strategies to use with them and when they faced them, the game wasn't broken the way they were. Nerf these two with the respec when introduced with a free respec given to each for this first time. (all for adding a "paid" respec option for the players who want to do so to test out different builds.)

Respec should have been implemented from the outset just by nature of dynamic, evolving game like this... As it currently is, the answer in place is (as the old saying goes,) "placing the cart before the horse."

I believe those that many who rebuild these characters via time, effort, and money are going to rage again whenever respec is introduced. They initially spent time and possibly cash building these two heroes up, had them torn down, spend more time and money into rebuilding a character they ALREADY HAD, and then along comes a respec, and these same people are going to look back at the time/ money they spent rebuilding as time/money wasted YET AGAIN that could have been used on another character or characters.

***Here's another idea that just popped up as an act towards good faith towards the players that have been affected- Do a similar thing as the Black Widow/ Hawkeye purchases... Add guaranteed Thor/ Wolverine cards at an iso8 cost... Help these players that choose to rebuild (possibly this option only opens up if neither of these are on your current roster,) so they can quickly "get back into the game" with the 85s they had already worked up. As it is, rebuilding for some players, especially casual ones, is a somewhat daunting task considering all factors of random drops, purchasing into unguaranteed decks in the hopes of landing one of them, placing in events for earning these cards, etc... Something should be done that is better than the payout of roughly half the cards worth...***

Thanks for reading,
Regards, doc8998

doc8998

***Here's another idea that just popped up as an act towards good faith towards the players that have been affected- Do a similar thing as the Black Widow/ Hawkeye purchases... Add guaranteed Thor/ Wolverine cards at an iso8 cost... Help these players that choose to rebuild (possibly this option only opens up if neither of these are on your current roster,) so they can quickly "get back into the game" with the 85s they had already worked up. As it is, rebuilding for some players, especially casual ones, is a somewhat daunting task considering all factors of random drops, purchasing into unguaranteed decks in the hopes of landing one of them, placing in events for earning these cards, etc... Something should be done that is better than the payout of roughly half the cards worth...***

Unknown

doc8998 wrote:

justaplayer wrote:

Really don't think they are reading any of this or any other thread at this point. It has become more than evident they don't give a flying pigs anus now they have our money. From now on when someone asks who the worst gaming companies are my reply will be Funcom followed by D3 Publisher.

Yeah, I'm losing faith daily... It's a shame, because I've always enjoyed the PQ series, own them all through Steam... Grabbing the Marvel license had me psyched, as did the first few months of gameplay... This, however, is quickly becoming a travesty.

Can't think of a single thing as of late that was actually done with the players best interests in mind.

Too bad, Not looking forward to deleting this from my phone, but it's quickly looking like that's what's in store for MPQ.

Regards

I own a few as well but will be damned if I buy another after what I have seen here.

doc8998

justaplayer wrote:

doc8998 wrote:

justaplayer wrote:

Really don't think they are reading any of this or any other thread at this point. It has become more than evident they don't give a flying pigs anus now they have our money. From now on when someone asks who the worst gaming companies are my reply will be Funcom followed by D3 Publisher.

Yeah, I'm losing faith daily... It's a shame, because I've always enjoyed the PQ series, own them all through Steam... Grabbing the Marvel license had me psyched, as did the first few months of gameplay... This, however, is quickly becoming a travesty.

Can't think of a single thing as of late that was actually done with the players best interests in mind.

Too bad, Not looking forward to deleting this from my phone, but it's quickly looking like that's what's in store for MPQ.

Regards

I own a few as well but will be damned if I buy another after what I have seen here.

And it's a real shame... What you're expressing isn't your feeling alone in this, from reading others' anger over the changes.

This sudden cash-grab to play is short-sighted, to say the least...

The Puzzle Quest series, in general, has always been reviewed very well by critics and fans alike. Adding in the Marvel Universe is almost a perfect match for D3 in a FTP game.

D3's reputation on practically building the "Match-3/ RPG-battle" game, and doing it in a well respected and highly touted style has that going for it... It's not only done WELL, but done in a manner that suits gamers, non-gamers, and players of all ages and skill levels.

The Marvel Universe, thanks to the MASS success of the Iron Man, Captain America, Thor, Spider Man, X-Men, Avengers movies, and SO MANY more coming, is going to keep the interest in these characters at a high level for a very long time. These also speak to people who may have never even picked up a comic book in the past, as well as speaking to all generations.

All of this added up to PROBABLE long-term success of this game, especially when players of the game, as rabid as we were, would bring word of mouth to that few % of people that may (somehow,) not fall into ANY of the above categories; gamer, comic-book reader, movie goer, super hero fan... The foundation for long term success was laid, and laid strong for this game... I honestly believe that where they were at, with a few added microtransaction WANTS (ie: ability to get your hands on characters needed to complete story lines, as one example,) Instead of charging for things that are becoming necessary, would have begun raising revenue substantially whilst still keeping the fun level of the game and keeping players feeling as if they were being treated fairly.

Perhaps they believed more microtransactions would have happened by now with the success of the Marvel Universe... Maybe what they've taken in as revenue isn't matching what they're having to dole out to Disney to pay for the license to use these characters... I don't know, but I would LIKE to believe that these "cash-grab" additions were things the Devs felt they HAD to implement in order to continue keeping this game out there, rather than pure and simple greed.

Regardless of motivation, it would appear that their want/ need of money and the way they've implemented acquiring it is driving customers either away from spending any more money or away from the game completely.

Regards,
doc8998