Weird rosters at top of PvE brackets

Renaldoo

I've only seen this in the last month or so. The leader of my pve brackets these days tends to be people with rosters of all level 94 characters, fully covered. What the heck is up with this?

mr_X

Noticed that as well. Pretty sure they are trying to optimise their roster to keep individual scaling under control. Think that is theory anyway.

fmftint

The primary reason is it keeps your roster interchangeable from top to bottom.

Renaldoo

I can see how it's good for flexibility, but I don't see how it allows them to out-perform people who have 3-4 maxxed out featured champions. It seems to me that there must be a pretty large issue with their PvE scaling formula.

Unknown

The way scaling works is that let's say you have a bunch of characters at level 100 in some cover configuration, and you were offered the chance to take them all to level 200 for free. You'd do strictly worse in PvE compared to before in the long run, though normally you should take such a deal because that'd give you a bigger benefit in PvP that does outweigh doing worse in PvE. Some people appear to have no intention to compete in PvP whatsoever so they keep their roster artificially low level.

The weekly rotating buff list which is weighted heavier on high level characters (as in higher level is actually better than lower level) at least gives you a fighting chance against these guys now, though I'm pretty sure they still have the upper hand.

Unknown

I'm not positive leveling characters actually helps you in PvP either. Not sure if it's MMR change or that I stupidly leveled more heroes to 166 after the ISO reduction, but I've noticed this season that I get stuck in nasty brackets every time (as compared to previous few seasons I've played since I returned to the game), regardless of when I enter or how much time left, and see max 3*'s+ out the door. The weekly boosts and health increases in theory are nice, but in practice mean constant health packs during PvP, much slower going, and much greater difficulty climbing anywhere close to where I'd reach before. Also a bunch more attacks.

It would be nice if they would find some way to make PvP more rewarding for leveling your heroes, instead of punishing you (and for trying out different combinations. I've found that, despite what others have said about the changes, that using anything other than my A-team leads to even more attacks, and at several hundred points lower than where I used to start getting hit). My season scores have not been especially high either. Simply played events that interested me, and less than half of PvP events, but it seems to not have made much difference. Lots of fun.

It takes me literally twice as long to reach 2/3 of the score I used to attain, and the brackets I've been getting put in require 30% more points or more in order to win anything (the end result being I've been lucky to even get 1 cover from the PvPs I've entered this season).

Unknown

Yes, with the recent MMR changes, not leveling your characters let you see more 2*s rosters so its way easier.

Unknown

Didn't they put the change that makes 2* always available if they're relatively high on their own bracket in PvP? At least I assume this is what's happening when I randomly see a team with 2* pop up for no reason, though they sure don't show up very often anymore.

Druss

I doubt this.

I have not seen anything below Lv166 for about a month now.

Very infrequently the featured character wont be up to full strength but the other 2 seem to always be a minimum of a maxed level 3*

simonsez

Renaldoo wrote:

I've only seen this in the last month or so. The leader of my pve brackets these days tends to be people with rosters of all level 94 characters, fully covered. What the heck is up with this?

Business as usual?

Malcrof

As someone transitioning, i can definitely see where the complaints are.. when i had maxed 94 chars and no high 3*, i could do top 25 or higher in a PVE almost guaranteed. Then i made the mistake of leveling 2 of my chars to 140.

Now hitting top 150 in a PVE is a chore, right now in my bracket, the #1 person doesn't even have maxed 94, they have fully covered level 81 characters....

PVP and PVE have both gotten monstrously harder for me, but i accept the challenge, and have about 4 characters ready to hit 166, unfortunately, they are not covered properly, so waiting it out until i have a couple exactly how i want them..

not sure how bringing some to 166 is going to change things, i hope it helps me rank higher again.

Colognoisseur

I see a version of this post every PvE. I always check my top 10 and especially when it is for a new character my top 10 is full of top tier rosters.
I have only experienced the lvl 94 rosters in the top 10 when it is for an already previously released character. i chalk that up to other top tier rosters shut down after getting final progression.

I am only one person but I just haven't seen this especially when the PvE is for a new 3* of 4* character.

I would love to see the statistics from the devs which would prove this one way or the other.

Unknown

Colognoisseur wrote:

I see a version of this post every PvE. I always check my top 10 and especially when it is for a new character my top 10 is full of top tier rosters.
I have only experienced the lvl 94 rosters in the top 10 when it is for an already previously released character. i chalk that up to other top tier rosters shut down after getting final progression.

I am only one person but I just haven't seen this especially when the PvE is for a new 3* of 4* character.

I would love to see the statistics from the devs which would prove this one way or the other.

The vast majority of my brackets are noobs, new characters or not. So maybe players are dispatched according to their past experience ? Are you Top 1 consistently ?

Colognoisseur

arktos1971 wrote:

Colognoisseur wrote:

I see a version of this post every PvE. I always check my top 10 and especially when it is for a new character my top 10 is full of top tier rosters.
I have only experienced the lvl 94 rosters in the top 10 when it is for an already previously released character. i chalk that up to other top tier rosters shut down after getting final progression.

I am only one person but I just haven't seen this especially when the PvE is for a new 3* of 4* character.

I would love to see the statistics from the devs which would prove this one way or the other.

The vast majority of my brackets are noobs, new characters or not. So maybe players are dispatched according to their past experience ? Are you Top 1 consistently ?

I always go into a PvE for new characters aiming for whatever placement that gives me all three new covers. When it is not a new character PvE I farm iso and hit the top progression award.
I always pre-register so I don't know if that has something to do with it.
Only on one of the recent Prodigal Sun runs did I have a lvl 94 guy near me and the scaling during Hell's Kitchen sub killed him and I pulled away.
Like I said I'm just a single data point but I have seen very little to none of it when I'm trying to score a high placement.

TheOncomingStorm

They are trying to game the system. They aren't top veterans winning in pvp, who get overscaling in pve. Therefore, MPQ seems to ignore these issues.

JamieMadrox

Colognoisseur wrote:

arktos1971 wrote:

Colognoisseur wrote:

I see a version of this post every PvE. I always check my top 10 and especially when it is for a new character my top 10 is full of top tier rosters.
I have only experienced the lvl 94 rosters in the top 10 when it is for an already previously released character. i chalk that up to other top tier rosters shut down after getting final progression.

I am only one person but I just haven't seen this especially when the PvE is for a new 3* of 4* character.

I would love to see the statistics from the devs which would prove this one way or the other.

The vast majority of my brackets are noobs, new characters or not. So maybe players are dispatched according to their past experience ? Are you Top 1 consistently ?

I always go into a PvE for new characters aiming for whatever placement that gives me all three new covers. When it is not a new character PvE I farm iso and hit the top progression award.
I always pre-register so I don't know if that has something to do with it.
Only on one of the recent Prodigal Sun runs did I have a lvl 94 guy near me and the scaling during Hell's Kitchen sub killed him and I pulled away.
Like I said I'm just a single data point but I have seen very little to none of it when I'm trying to score a high placement.

I'm in the same boat. I almost always preregister for PVE and my opponents are generally the same roster level as me.

Except this time. This time I joined with 4 hours left in the first sub. I also had not played a PVE other than Ultron since before the first Ultron PVE started. This landed in in a very fluffy bracket with opponents that are both lacking the roster depth and levels to compete with me. My final sub ends in 8.5h and I have a comfortable 22k lead in my main and 740 (full essential node) point lead in the sub.

Unknown

TheOncomingStorm wrote:

They are trying to game the system. They aren't top veterans winning in pvp, who get overscaling in pve. Therefore, MPQ seems to ignore these issues.

I'm not sure how you figure. The rotating buffs definitely make both PVE and PVP harder for these types of rosters, and definitely encourages leveling up at least one team to 166. I also don't get where the line is for 'gaming' the system. Is shield hopping considered 'gaming' the system? Or is it ok, because you have to spend hp to do it?

Also, is keeping 4* below lvl 270 considered gaming the system? I always just assumed that was smart playing if you wanted to play the game a particular way and set up your roster to do it.

udonomefoo

FYI, just checked my top 10 from TaT:

1. 220 thor & lots of 166s
2. Lots of 166s
3. Lots of 166s
4. 270x2 & lots of 166s
5. DuckyV, need I say more?
6. 270s & 166s
7. 270s & 166s
8. 270s & 166s
9. 166s
10. 166s

Not a single 94 to be found, except on the end of the benches of the heavy hitters that are dominating the pve.

TheOncomingStorm

daibar wrote:

TheOncomingStorm wrote:

They are trying to game the system. They aren't top veterans winning in pvp, who get overscaling in pve. Therefore, MPQ seems to ignore these issues.

I'm not sure how you figure. The rotating buffs definitely make both PVE and PVP harder for these types of rosters, and definitely encourages leveling up at least one team to 166. I also don't get where the line is for 'gaming' the system. Is shield hopping considered 'gaming' the system? Or is it ok, because you have to spend hp to do it?

Also, is keeping 4* below lvl 270 considered gaming the system? I always just assumed that was smart playing if you wanted to play the game a particular way and set up your roster to do it.

1st, google gaming the system. Intentionally underleveling your characters for a perceived advantage (real or imagined) is the definition of gaming the system. It is not relevant if they actually gain advantage. If you look at their posts they will flat out tell you that they underlevel their characters to beat the system and get easier scaling than if they played the way the game was set up.

2nd, old shield hopping, I'd consider to be gaming the system. Now, it is harder for me to tell (plus I very seldom hop to get a first hand perspective). I would probably say it is and it is not. It is to the extent that I'm not sure that is how the feature was originally designed. It is not to the extent that the progressive values remain high after the mmr change so that the new system has accepted shield hopping as a regular occurrence. You can debate if it should be that way, but unless progressives are lowered to where shield hopping is not needed on a regular basis depending on the slice you are in, it seems to not be gaming the system.

Conversely, veteran leveled rosters routinely can do well in PVE. Therefore, an underleveled roster is not essential to obtain rewards. I have stated repeatedly that I think scaling is proportional to the roster; therefore, I think that the advantage is primarily perception. That said, community scaling is does not seem to be proportional. Therefore, while both type of rosters cause community scaling, the higher level rosters appear to be hit by it to a much greater degree.

All I am trying to say is the developers changed MMR in PVP because they wanted the playing field to be more leveled for all types of roster. If that is indeed their intent, then it should be a two-way street. If more developed rosters are being penalized in PVP, where they had an advantage, then there should be some paradigm shift in PVE, where newer rosters have and advantage.

The one point that is not arguable is that players with underleveled rosters believe they gain an advantage in PVE by keeping them underleveled.

simonsez

udonomefoo wrote:

FYI, just checked my top 10 from TaT:

1. 220 thor & lots of 166s
2. Lots of 166s
3. Lots of 166s
4. 270x2 & lots of 166s
5. DuckyV, need I say more?
6. 270s & 166s
7. 270s & 166s
8. 270s & 166s
9. 166s
10. 166s

And here's the top of my bracket:

1. 3 166's
2. No 166's
3. 1 166
4. 1 166
5. No 166's
6. No 166's
7. 2 166's , 205 XF
And then me.

So maybe the question is, why do people see such inconsistency between their brackets? Maybe the devs are the ones "gaming the system" more than anyone. It's hard to fathom the different experiences people have in different brackets is purely based on randomness.

Unknown

My number one in TaT have few 166s, number two got every character maxed including 270 HB. Rest of top10 is 166s or capped 110/120 and one more with multiple 270s. If anything this shows that it's fair fight for any roster as long as you put effort into it. Obviously you won't see that many 166/270 on old character releases in top because who with right mind would heavily grind for top10 when they can only vendor the covers? Massive waste of time except some HP that t50 is enough and can be gotten casually.