In preparation for the post-Ultron v2 backlash, a suggestion

Dauthi

GothicKratos wrote:

Here's the overarching thing that is killing me though. A little while back, I made a post about support giving Tokens for compensation. I made the post because I felt like it was literally the "slap in the face" the community loves to complain about. I wasn't rude about it. I didn't make any assertions about their character. I explained why it was not acceptable and how they could change it going forward (as well as giving a few examples where giving Tokens would be acceptable). I was humane about it. To be honest, I expected it to fall on deaf ears - by the forums, not the developers - and much to my surprise, I got a lot of support in it, and I proceeded to message HiFi about it. He replied to me saying they already sent a message to support about it. Less than 24 hours time. You know what I haven't heard about since? Token compensation.

I think "You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" sums this up. I am in your position, and when I have a problem I voice it here in a logical constructive manner and always feel that it is heard. For instance when I made a thread complaining that top 50 rewards in PVE were ripping apart alliances, 1 week later they bumped it to 100.

The developers will listen, but just like all human beings they consider the source. In the end, the posters out there are only harming their position by throwing out accusations/attacks.

Now, you're probably thinking I'm rambling, but here's what I'm getting at; I think there was plenty of inefficiency in the handling of the last two weeks. I want to make another post like that in hopes of garnering some positive results. I can't bring myself to do it though. I genuinely have come to the conclusion that the developers cannot win - that nobody would be happy, even content, with any positive outcome. It feels like it would be an utter waste of time, because no matter what would come of it, it would just be met with vitriol and criticism.

Something happens that people don't like and it's practically a riot. Then two weeks later, people are either like "oh, so-and-so is probably why they did that" or "you know, this isn't as bad as I thought it would be", but instantly, on the drop of a dime, when the next change comes around, it's thrown in their faces. Fifty people make separate threads to complain about the same things.

When they scale something back for us, it's "about time". When they make changes that strictly benefit us, it's "about time". Maybe it's "about time" instead of demanding developer interaction, maybe, we can create an environment that feels worth interacting with.

I see this too. There is a lot more folks that enjoyed the event I'm sure (myself included), the problem is those with complaints are much more likely to post them than those with compliments. From there it does seem to go downhill as the negative posters feed off each other like a boulder gaining momentum. A good example is the bashing of new characters that aren't top tier quality like Quicksilver. He has garnered so much hate, yet he is as average a character as Psylocke or Colossus. You don't see people calling either of them bag-locke or bag-lossus. It is a mentality where they expect D3 to fail at anything they do if it is not perfect/the best.

In my opinion there were some issues, but the rewards were still by far amazing overall and D3 plans to give out reparations for any harm done by the issues.

Unknown

Dauthi wrote:

GothicKratos wrote:

I think "You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" sums this up. I am in your position, and when I have a problem I voice it here in a logical constructive manner and always feel that it is heard. For instance when I made a thread complaining that top 50 rewards in PVE were ripping apart alliances, 1 week later they bumped it to 100.

And then with this PvE, they put Hulkbuster only available to the top 50 again, so don't go showering the compliments just yet. Sure, you can win a mohawk storm at 150, but that isn't much of a reward when they have given green covers for her away loads already. Six days of grinding and only the top 50 get a decent cover. Sheesh.

Unknown

El Satanno wrote:

I wholly anticipate that when the first alliance finally cracks Ultron 8 open and reveals what will very likely be a pile of health points on an epic scale, this place will create a singularity of negativity and disdain which could warp the fabric of reality itself.

Just curious - how did your opinion change when you learned that Round 8 only required 15M, making it entirely possible to complete? Our alliance could have done it if we had a couple more heavy hitters but I'm happy with two HB covers for minimal work.

El Satanno

shade_tree wrote:

Just curious - how did your opinion change when you learned that Round 8 only required 15M, making it entirely possible to complete? Our alliance could have done it if we had a couple more heavy hitters but I'm happy with two HB covers for minimal work.

I suppose it might have, if my alliance had managed to crack 8 at all. As it stood, we cleared 6 with less than 24 hours to go. Anyway, the Ultron event itself was really just the catalyst for the dialogue I was hoping to spur and not the primary focus. It's interesting to see what the responses have been on both sides of the argument. Just to answer you, though, I was at least partially relieved to see that the ball hadn't been dropped as completely as I was anticipating. Yay, I guess. I really hope we see more of this style of event than the PvE we're all-too used to, that's for sure.

To reiterate my original point, I am not advocating in any way that we ought to collectively eschew criticism or complaints. Hell, furthest thing from it. I'm trying to say that going about it with posts laden with 4-letter words are probably doing more harm than good.

MarvelMan

shade_tree wrote:

El Satanno wrote:

I wholly anticipate that when the first alliance finally cracks Ultron 8 open and reveals what will very likely be a pile of health points on an epic scale, this place will create a singularity of negativity and disdain which could warp the fabric of reality itself.

Just curious - how did your opinion change when you learned that Round 8 only required 15M, making it entirely possible to complete? Our alliance could have done it if we had a couple more heavy hitters but I'm happy with two HB covers for minimal work.

Seriously?


My alliance reached Round 8, but had no chance of completing it. And I had no problem with that, or not getting IMHB black. But to say its "entirely possible to complete" is kind of ridiculous. Ill need to go back to the math threads to confirm but getting 20 people to play optimally for 4.5 days, assuming no server/event issues, to have even a chance at the final reward is kind of crazy.

Unknown

MarvelMan wrote:

shade_tree wrote:

El Satanno wrote:

I wholly anticipate that when the first alliance finally cracks Ultron 8 open and reveals what will very likely be a pile of health points on an epic scale, this place will create a singularity of negativity and disdain which could warp the fabric of reality itself.

Just curious - how did your opinion change when you learned that Round 8 only required 15M, making it entirely possible to complete? Our alliance could have done it if we had a couple more heavy hitters but I'm happy with two HB covers for minimal work.

Seriously?


My alliance reached Round 8, but had no chance of completing it. And I had no problem with that, or not getting IMHB black. But to say its "entirely possible to complete" is kind of ridiculous. Ill need to go back to the math threads to confirm but getting 20 people to play optimally for 4.5 days, assuming no server/event issues, to have even a chance at the final reward is kind of crazy.

Not so ridiculous if you actually do the math with real numbers rather than hypotheticals.

We completed Round 7 with a couple hours left and at that point our top 10 had an average of 1.6M with #1 @ 1.91M. #11 had 1M (and I can't see any lower than that as I was #7 on the ladder), so our performance obviously dropped off on the lower end of the alliance (those 10 members only accounted for about 7M). If all 20 members had averaged 1.6+ million it would have been possible to beat Round 8.

MarvelMan

shade_tree wrote:

Not so ridiculous if you actually do the math with real numbers rather than hypotheticals.

So lets (re)do the math:

Ultron Health per Fight (same for 3* and 4*):
1 - 6750 - level 100
2 - 8385 - level 125
3 - 10010 - level 150
4 - 13260 - level 200
5 - 16510 - level 250
6 - 19760 - level 300
7 - 23010 - level 350
8 - 26260 - level 400

Ultron Total Health per Round (Hulkbuster 4*)
1 - 75,000
2 - 225,000
3 - 500,000
4 - 1,500,000
5 - 3,000,000
6 - 5,500,000
7 - 11,000,000
8 - 15,000,000
Total health = 36,800,00 (and dont forget that nodes gave up to 2k extra).

That means the total points at least approached 40M, and was likely over. So alliance members had to AVERAGE 2M points in order to complete Round 8. Due to the early rounds being wrapped up so fast its likely that people didnt get optimal points. Essentially you had to do optimal clears every 8 hours (so 6 Ultrons per 8 hour period) to finish Round 8. And EVERY alliance member had to do that to have a hope. Its likely that a few members could miss one clear and still reach it, but isnt that level of effort/coordination ridiculous? And definitely not in line with the level of reward handed out in the universally panned top 50 reward structure for 4* intro PVEs.......

Unknown

MarvelMan wrote:

shade_tree wrote:

Not so ridiculous if you actually do the math with real numbers rather than hypotheticals.

So lets (re)do the math:

Ultron Health per Fight (same for 3* and 4*):
1 - 6750 - level 100
2 - 8385 - level 125
3 - 10010 - level 150
4 - 13260 - level 200
5 - 16510 - level 250
6 - 19760 - level 300
7 - 23010 - level 350
8 - 26260 - level 400

Ultron Total Health per Round (Hulkbuster 4*)
1 - 75,000
2 - 225,000
3 - 500,000
4 - 1,500,000
5 - 3,000,000
6 - 5,500,000
7 - 11,000,000
8 - 15,000,000
Total health = 36,800,00 (and dont forget that nodes gave up to 2k extra).

That means the total points at least approached 40M, and was likely over. So alliance members had to AVERAGE 2M points in order to complete Round 8. Due to the early rounds being wrapped up so fast its likely that people didnt get optimal points. Essentially you had to do optimal clears every 8 hours (so 6 Ultrons per 8 hour period) to finish Round 8. And EVERY alliance member had to do that to have a hope. Its likely that a few members could miss one clear and still reach it, but isnt that level of effort/coordination ridiculous? And definitely not in line with the level of reward handed out in the universally panned top 50 reward structure for 4* intro PVEs.......

Divide the total by 20 = 1.839M + add another ~65K (1K per essential x five essentials per refresh x three refreshes per day x 4.3 days) = 1.9M We had one member exceed that amount even before we started Round 8. So I stand by my statement that it was entirely possible to do it as proven by my own alliance.

Playing 60-90 minutes every eight hours is hardly ridiculous, IMO. If it was taking you more than that to clear maybe you were using the wrong characters: Blade/Cage + essential for waves, Cyclops/Cap/GSBW for Ultron made for quick clears with very little health loss.

MarvelMan

shade_tree wrote:

Weird: when I divide the total by 20 I get 1.839M per member. We had one member exceed that amount even before we started Round 8. So I stand by my statement that it was entirely possible to do it as proven by my own alliance.

Playing 60-90 minutes every eight hours is hardly ridiculous, IMO. If it was taking you more than that to clear you were using the wrong characters - Blade/Cage + essential for waves, Cyclops/Cap/GSBW for Ultron made for quick clears with very little health loss.

I think you may have missed that side notes give points, which is what drives the totals up to almost (or over) 40M. And yes, 60-90 minutes every 8 hours IS crazy.

I had my own teams, similar to those, that worked great and I spent around 90 minutes per clear but I wasnt able to play optimally the entire event, and as a couple others in my alliance werent as well it was completely out of reach. I wiped only twice the whole event (to a node that spawned with 2 of the Sentry Gunners and Core wiped a full char with the Core cascades) and barely used health packs so it wasnt about difficulty. It came down to the math, and what that told us about schedule. And that should not be how the game is designed: its a serious flaw it that was intended.

Unknown

MarvelMan wrote:

I think you may have missed that side notes give points, which is what drives the totals up to almost (or over) 40M. And yes, 60-90 minutes every 8 hours IS crazy.

I had my own teams, similar to those, that worked great and I spent around 90 minutes per clear but I wasnt able to play optimally the entire event, and as a couple others in my alliance werent as well it was completely out of reach. I wiped only twice the whole event (to a node that spawned with 2 of the Sentry Gunners and Core wiped a full char with the Core cascades) and barely used health packs so it wasnt about difficulty. It came down to the math, and what that told us about schedule. And that should not be how the game is designed: its a serious flaw it that was intended.

You are entitled to your opinion, but 60-90 minutes every eight hours is actually less than many people spend playing "regular" PVEs and is not crazy at all, IMO (see how I qualified that?).

I updated my numbers to add the side nodes - a whopping 65K per player from essentials assuming all were giving points but I was seeing maybe three out of five - and as I posted, we had one guy get that total without playing any of Round 8. So again, entirely possible for a dedicated alliance as I originally stated.

san

shade_tree wrote:

You are entitled to your opinion, but 60-90 minutes every eight hours is actually less than many people spend playing "regular" PVEs and is not crazy at all, IMO (see how I qualified that?).

I updated my numbers to add the side nodes - a whopping 65K per player from essentials assuming all were giving points but I was seeing maybe three out of five - and as I posted, we had one guy get that total without playing any of Round 8. So again, entirely possible for a dedicated alliance as I originally stated.

And you sir, are entitled to yours. However, according to the DSM (the diagnostics manual for mental health disorders) that level of play is actually at levels for an addiction, which is a mental disorder. As in, it is crazy.

See what I did there? Logic.

Unknown

san-mpq wrote:

shade_tree wrote:

You are entitled to your opinion, but 60-90 minutes every eight hours is actually less than many people spend playing "regular" PVEs and is not crazy at all, IMO (see how I qualified that?).

I updated my numbers to add the side nodes - a whopping 65K per player from essentials assuming all were giving points but I was seeing maybe three out of five - and as I posted, we had one guy get that total without playing any of Round 8. So again, entirely possible for a dedicated alliance as I originally stated.

And you sir, are entitled to yours. However, according to the DSM (the diagnostics manual for mental health disorders) that level of play is actually at levels for an addiction, which is a mental disorder. As in, it is crazy.

See what I did there? Logic.

You think 60-90 minutes of play every eight hours is crazy? You must not play PVE competitively because a 24-hr sub with 8-hr refreshes requires four clears PLUS an hour of grinding at the end, meaning you're spending about five hours per sub and once you're done, you have to play another hour on the fresh sub - it's "normal" to play up to three straight hours across the end and beginnings of subs if you're trying for Top 10 or better. Ultron was a breath of fresh air in comparison and if you put in the time you were guaranteed to get the covers - like The Gauntlet but much easier to complete.

The math proves that it was possible for a 20-member alliance to finish Round 8 by simply hitting the refreshes and clearing as often as possible with zero grinding required - that's not an opinion, that's a fact. I've been playing for over 500 days and don't recall ever getting as many guaranteed covers for so little total playing time.

Unknown

El Satanno wrote:

In less than 48 hours we're going to see the end of the Ultron event. Judging from the conversation going on around here, it seems like a very real possibility that not a single person will be getting the final Hulkbuster cover from progression in the Ultron Prime sub. With the litany of problems faced by the playerbase, emotions are running pretty hot and the tone around here has become more than a little acidic. I wholly anticipate that when the first alliance finally cracks Ultron 8 open and reveals what will very likely be a pile of health points on an epic scale, this place will create a singularity of negativity and disdain which could warp the fabric of reality itself.

I'd like to implore the collective population here to try to curtail your vilest impulses. Honestly. I get that we're all tired of feeling like we're not valued as customers, or that design decisions made in this event (and many others) can be identified somewhere on a line beginning at "bumbling incompetence" and ending at "mustache-twirling insidiousness." I really do. And I get that you want to vocalize your displeasure. I think a lot of us really like the idea of making this forum a place where we can provide constructive feedback, and piling on the insults, baseless accusations, and wild leaps in logic aren't particularly helpful. Are you really thinking somewhere that "Hey, maybe if I call these guys a bunch of inbred, mouth-breathing, waterheads, they'll take me seriously!"

Now if you just want to vent, then I suppose that's your prerogative. It's pretty tired, though. If I had a nickel for every post that contains some variation of the phrases "incompetent development," "only want your money," and/or "don't give a tinykitty about the players," I'd be able to build my own colony on Mars. I feel like any given thread around here has 40% of its posts that either contain those concepts, or worse still, consist solely of them. You know, I don't even necessarily disagree with those sentiments, but I sure as hell don't need to read about it in every thread.

How about if instead, we try to focus on the positive and then move into let's-make-it-better territory? Yeah, it takes a little more effort. Yeah, it's not quite as viscerally satisfying. But maybe, just maybe, we'd be a little more likely to get some more posts from those names in red that we seem to collectively crave. I don't know about you, but I'd surely be a lot more prone to engaging with my customers if I wasn't certain to be inundated with the same tired accusations for page after page after page. Hell, look at it from another angle: Would you rather have this place full of NorthernPolarity/Nonce Equitaur/Clintman/Phantron/etc, or...well, you can surely pick some of the same names I'm thinking of...

Pretty good post, I must say. Let me try to remain positive..... oh, but i can't, and here's one of the many reasons why.

Yesterday, after a month long break from PvE, I had some time to kill, so I figured I would join the Enemy of the State event. I open MPQ, click on EotS and choose my end-time.... and then, the screen re-loads and the event isn't open and I need to choose an end time again. I did this a handful of times before I gave up and said EFF this. I can't even join a PvE event!

Here are a few more attempts at being positive:

I'm positive I'm sick of the various bugs and problems
I'm positive I'm sick of facing maxed teams upon joining any PvP event
I'm positive I'm sick of 20-Iso
I'm positive I'm sick of watching characters I've built up for months getting nerfed

Call me a debbie downer; I don't care. I have nothing truly positive to say.

Unknown

MikeHock wrote:

Yesterday, after a month long break from PvE, I had some time to kill, so I figured I would join the Enemy of the State event. I open MPQ, click on EotS and choose my end-time.... and then, the screen re-loads and the event isn't open and I need to choose an end time again. I did this a handful of times before I gave up and said EFF this. I can't even join a PvE event!

You actually joined it on the first try and all you needed to do was to reload the game. Does this to me about 50% of the time on PVE.

san

shade_tree wrote:

You think 60-90 minutes of play every eight hours is crazy? You must not play PVE competitively because a 24-hr sub with 8-hr refreshes requires four clears PLUS an hour of grinding at the end, meaning you're spending about five hours per sub and once you're done, you have to play another hour on the fresh sub - it's "normal" to play up to three straight hours across the end and beginnings of subs if you're trying for Top 10 or better. Ultron was a breath of fresh air in comparison and if you put in the time you were guaranteed to get the covers - like The Gauntlet but much easier to complete.

The math proves that it was possible for a 20-member alliance to finish Round 8 by simply hitting the refreshes and clearing as often as possible with zero grinding required - that's not an opinion, that's a fact. I've been playing for over 500 days and don't recall ever getting as many guaranteed covers for so little total playing time.

Yes, yes I do think it's crazy, by the very definition of crazy, that being from the official manual psychiatrists across North America use to diagnose that which is called mental illness. Individuals with mental illness were formerly referred to as the "crazy." That level of time waste/playing is on par with addictive behaviours we see in gambling, alcoholism, smoking, and heavy drug use, as is the level of denial I see. It's akin to someone telling me "well, I use crack cocaine, but only once every week, rather than every day!" Now, I know this is not the same situation, but 1.5/8h = 4.5h/day, which in my opinion (and the opinion of many medical professionals) is too much.

Odd what happens when logic enters an argument. It seems to invite further entrenchment into an illogical point of view.

You are right that I do not play PVE competitively. My alliance in PVP only for good reason. Competitive PVE = addiction+burnout.

Unknown

san-mpq wrote:

shade_tree wrote:

The math proves that it was possible for a 20-member alliance to finish Round 8 by simply hitting the refreshes and clearing as often as possible with zero grinding required - that's not an opinion, that's a fact.

Odd what happens when logic enters an argument. It seems to invite further entrenchment into an illogical point of view.

Tell me about it - I keep posting the numbers for how Round 8 was beatable but some people just want keep blaming their inadequacies on "the devs".

Edit: Hey MarvelMan, down-vote all you want but the fact is that there were enough points available despite all your lame excuses.

Unknown

shade_tree wrote:

inadequacies

san

shade_tree wrote:

Tell me about it - I keep posting the numbers for how Round 8 was beatable but some people just want keep blaming their inadequacies on "the devs".

You're off topic. I was discussing addiction, and you are talking about complaining. I didn't mention developers, and I don't see how this came about. This conversation is derailing. As such, I think I'll end it here. Best of luck, sir.

Unknown

san-mpq wrote:

shade_tree wrote:

Tell me about it - I keep posting the numbers for how Round 8 was beatable but some people just want keep blaming their inadequacies on "the devs".

You're off topic. I was discussing addiction, and you are talking about complaining. I didn't mention developers, and I don't see how this came about. This conversation is derailing. As such, I think I'll end it here. Best of luck, sir.

As soon as you started trying to diagnose whole swathes of the MPQ community as mentally-ill addicts the conversation derailed; I was just having fun with creative editing. I am pretty tired of all the whinging though - this forum is just full of people who aren't happy no matter what comes their way. Is that a mental illness, too?

MarvelMan

shade_tree wrote:

Edit: Hey MarvelMan, down-vote all you want but the fact is that there were enough points available despite all your lame excuses.

Never said otherwise, never made "excuses". What Ive ALWAYS said (see above) is that to get those points requires an insane dedication/coordination, and that the issues associated with the first run and the misleading post (which people read into what they want due to lack of clarification) meant that people unknowingly shot themselves in the foot. Not to mention that the server issues exacerbated the other issues.