Goodbye all

warcin

I am submitting this not just to be a flame on the way out but in hopes that it may bring discussions so that the game may be improved for those that remain. I do not have high hopes but I had to at least try. The developers of this game obviously do not play test new characters as they need to or even play the game a high level and it shows in their total disregard for their veteran players. Every single change they have made in the last month have severely hurt the game play and fun of the game and then they hide and refuse to communicate with anyone.

There is no reason for 4 star characters to even exist in this game. Not a single one of them is better than 3 star characters but they have 3 times the resource cost of the 3 star characters, but that does not stop D3 from pushing them out at a totally unsustainable rate. As it is now you are much better off not touching 4 star characters at all since owning and leveling them only hurt you in making both PVP and PVE harder for you but give you absolutely no increase in power to deal with it.

The constant bait and switch of their nerfing borders on the immoral even if it is not illegal. Yes I know that MMOs nerf all the time but there is a huge difference. In MMO you are only out time played and normally the nerf is not so extreme as to destroy the character completely. In this game there is a direct map to money for many players not just time. Even with the "refunds" they offer, which are a joke compared to the cost, they do not actually refund the money invested but their in game currency only. This is going to hit the fan for the whole mobile game market at some point when it just becomes to egregious. It is just a bubble that is very soon going to have to burst.

The pvp changes were so universal despised but the complete lack of any discussion of communication over them is so telling of the attitudes of the developers of this game that it was the last straw. PVE is a painful grind and with scaling and it only hurt you more the longer you played the game, but I was ok with that since PVE could be where newer players spent time to advance, and PVP could be where the more veteran player could advance. But not anymore. Both PVP and PVE are now configured to make it easier for new players to advance and there is no longer any area of the game that rewards long term play or dedication.

After playing this game for more than a year, seeing the rapid collapse in fun for me was very depressing, maybe if this changes were slowly trickled in or maybe if they were not so extreme I would be willing to keep playing but this was just to much all at once and then on top of that the complete silence over the issue from the development team. Yes I know no one likes to be abused and flamed and that was all they probably could have expected in communicating with us over the last 2 weeks but it is part of the job and maybe if there is this much complaining and screaming there is a point to it that should be considered.

To those remaining I hope that you continue to have fun with the game, I know I did for a very long time and at its core there is still a good game there. Hopefully all of the feedback from the last couple of weeks is taken to heart and the game can be made at least a little more fun in the process.

Jonny1Punch

Amazing post and agree with everything you said.

The game is very depressing at the moment and I don't see that changing...... What's even more depressing is seeing great players and nice people drop like flies. And D3 may not care but I do.

Good for you for getting rid of this cursed game and moving on, good luck you'll be missed.

I'm sorry for all the time and money you've wasted and can never get back.

Square

warcin wrote:

The pvp changes were so universal despised but the complete lack of any discussion of communication over them is so telling of the attitudes of the developers of this game that it was the last straw. PVE is a painful grind and with scaling and it only hurt you more the longer you played the game, but I was ok with that since PVE could be where newer players spent time to advance, and PVP could be where the more veteran player could advance. But not anymore. Both PVP and PVE are now configured to make it easier for new players to advance and there is no longer any area of the game that rewards long term play or dedication.

These are the points that I agree with most. When there is so much frustration, there is little that they address. I've excused a lot of the designer changes over the last months, but this was too much in too short of a time. And they sometimes interact with the player base here, but at this point they just dropped out. The game is now roughly 66% as playable as it was three months ago. That sucks. If they just came out and said they are rebalancing in favour of new players, I'd still hate it, but I'd respect it more.

Unknown

Well said. They have completely made 4* characters irrelevant. All they do now is force you to fight higher level opponents and cost 4x the resources. I don't know **** D3 is thinking right now but meh, what the hell ever. I do know one thing. I will not spend anything on any character in this game ever again. This is timekiller now and I cant trust if a cover I have spent real time and money on acquiring will be even remotely similar to what it was 2 weeks from now. If my car dealer worked for D3, he would have came up to me recently, ripped out my airbags and took 3 tires saying that this car is too nice compared to our other models so we need to make some balance adjustments. Uhhhh. I know where I am NOT getting my next car at!! Jafeelme. If they are worried about the new players well hell, maybe instead of just randomly changing covers you can make Beginner/Veteran/Advanced level pvp/pve tourneys. LOTS more iso and cover rewards in the harder difficulties but also tougher opponents. This way someone with a 2* roster is not upset they cant get a single 3* cover in pvp because they get slammed by max opponents as soon as they start grazing over in our 500+ pasture. Just one small easy suggestion that doesnt change any gameplay but would not alienate your veterans while aiding the rooks. I mean come on the changes now are just being made for the sake of changing. No real reason and it definitely did not make the game more exciting. It just means now Im facing any given 3* that on any lucky board can annihilate any one of my 4*. <<<****?

babinro

Sorry to see you go on such a down note.

I don't wish this response to come off as combative but I do find myself disagreeing with many of your points.
Obviously these things all come down to personal preference/interpretation though so to each their own.

warcin wrote:

Every single change they have made in the last month have severely hurt the game play and fun of the game and then they hide and refuse to communicate with anyone.

I constantly see threads giving us advanced notice of changes being made and often times with brief reasonings as to why.
They may not be communicating with you as much you want...but claiming the devs are hiding and refusing to communicate seems hyperbolic to say the least. We've known about character balances well in advance with changes to ISO rates coming several weeks or maybe even a month in advance. Devs have even gotten better at notifying those in game about changes to boot.

warcin wrote:

There is no reason for 4 star characters to even exist in this game. Not a single one of them is better than 3 star characters but they have 3 times the resource cost of the 3 star characters, but that does not stop D3 from pushing them out at a totally unsustainable rate. As it is now you are much better off not touching 4 star characters at all since owning and leveling them only hurt you in making both PVP and PVE harder for you but give you absolutely no increase in power to deal with it.

Yet we constantly see 4* characters used in even the most recent PvE. I saw plenty of XF, Thor, Xavier and even an Elektra during my climb. For a tier that's supposedly pointless they get a lot of play. I understand what you're saying...they aren't a tier above 3*s but they are still BETTER. These character tend to have higher damage or more effects in addition to damage. They may have cheaper AP costs (like XF green mass board shake compared to say Groots green, Hulks green). Or they simply have noticeably superior health pools. The gap between power levels have thinned a LOT but that doesn't give them no reason to exist.

The 3 times resource cost issue is being addressed right now according to R75 as leveling costs are dropping. I'm sure they'll still cost SUBSTANTIALLY more than a 3* but it's yet another step at making them more accessible.

I respectfully disagree that avoiding 4*'s entirely will actually HELP you succeed in this game. Leaderboards clearly show top tens in PvE and PvP with plenty of 4* characters. Until these results change and we see many vets actively selling off all of their 4*'s to 'compete' then I'll have a tough time taking such a claim seriously.

warcin wrote:

The constant bait and switch of their nerfing borders on the immoral even if it is not illegal. Yes I know that MMOs nerf all the time but there is a huge difference. In MMO you are only out time played and normally the nerf is not so extreme as to destroy the character completely. In this game there is a direct map to money for many players not just time. Even with the "refunds" they offer, which are a joke compared to the cost, they do not actually refund the money invested but their in game currency only. This is going to hit the fan for the whole mobile game market at some point when it just becomes to egregious. It is just a bubble that is very soon going to have to burst.

I agree that the refunds being offered are a complete joke and this seriously needs to be addressed as a genuine improvement to the experience. Hearthstone refunds 100% of the dust cost of their cards so you can fully exchange a card for another one of the same rarity. This is a F2P solution to nerfs and one that's been well received. There's no reason MPQ couldn't adopt the same policy. Delete XF during refund period = fully leveled and covered Kingpin (for example).

That said, I 100% disagree with your stance on nerfing something being immoral or illegal. Maye you're new to onling gaming space but this has been normal for well over a decade in just about every online PC experience on the market. Even consoles get updates frequently now. People KNEW this was a part of MPQ the instant Rags got nerfed. Anything after that was fair game and no longer shocking. Characters WILL get nerfed and buffed. We've known this in MPQ for ages now.

warcin wrote:

The pvp changes were so universal despised but the complete lack of any discussion of communication over them is so telling of the attitudes of the developers of this game that it was the last straw. PVE is a painful grind and with scaling and it only hurt you more the longer you played the game, but I was ok with that since PVE could be where newer players spent time to advance, and PVP could be where the more veteran player could advance. But not anymore. Both PVP and PVE are now configured to make it easier for new players to advance and there is no longer any area of the game that rewards long term play or dedication.

I have to disagree yet again. We constantly see vets topping the charts for both leaderboards in Pve and PvP. I understand that a vet is more likely to put the effort required to do well than another player type but we have no direct clear evidence that vets have it harder than all other tiers of the game. IMO, as a vet, I feel as though I still have a strong competitive advantage thanks to my roster size and available resources. It's not nearly as big an advantage as it was 3 months ago but it's still there.

warcin wrote:

To those remaining I hope that you continue to have fun with the game, I know I did for a very long time and at its core there is still a good game there. Hopefully all of the feedback from the last couple of weeks is taken to heart and the game can be made at least a little more fun in the process.

Agreed. I think the core issue with the game now is to address the players time invest vs the rewards given out and the resources spent to acquire those rewards. The game is slower paced and deadlier now. The rewards are unchanged. The result of these 2 things are less fun for the player even though the game play itself is a lot more exciting (IMO).

Unknown

It is sad to see so many veterans dropping like flies. Not only has my enjoyment of the game decreased with all of these changes but many of my loyal alliance members have moved on. They will be missed.

GothicKratos

Hope you enjoy where ever you end up!

If you haven't tried Final Fantasy Record Keeper yet, it's definitely something worth checking out, and if you're on Line, we're got a room with some MPQ players playing it too. Real chill folks.

itstime1234

babinro wrote:

Sorry to see you go on such a down note.
I don't wish this response to come off as combative but I do find myself disagreeing with many of your points.
Obviously these things all come down to personal preference/interpretation though so to each their own.

warcin wrote:

Every single change they have made in the last month have severely hurt the game play and fun of the game and then they hide and refuse to communicate with anyone.

I constantly see threads giving us advanced notice of changes being made and often times with brief reasonings as to why.
They may not be communicating with you as much you want...but claiming the devs are hiding and refusing to communicate seems hyperbolic to say the least. We've known about character balances well in advance with changes to ISO rates coming several weeks or maybe even a month in advance. Devs have even gotten better at notifying those in game about changes to boot.

warcin wrote:

There is no reason for 4 star characters to even exist in this game. Not a single one of them is better than 3 star characters but they have 3 times the resource cost of the 3 star characters, but that does not stop D3 from pushing them out at a totally unsustainable rate. As it is now you are much better off not touching 4 star characters at all since owning and leveling them only hurt you in making both PVP and PVE harder for you but give you absolutely no increase in power to deal with it.

Yet we constantly see 4* characters used in even the most recent PvE. I saw plenty of XF, Thor, Xavier and even an Elektra during my climb. For a tier that's supposedly pointless they get a lot of play. I understand what you're saying...they aren't a tier above 3*s but they are still BETTER. These character tend to have higher damage or more effects in addition to damage. They may have cheaper AP costs (like XF green mass board shake compared to say Groots green, Hulks green). Or they simply have noticeably superior health pools. The gap between power levels have thinned a LOT but that doesn't give them no reason to exist.

The 3 times resource cost issue is being addressed right now according to R75 as leveling costs are dropping. I'm sure they'll still cost SUBSTANTIALLY more than a 3* but it's yet another step at making them more accessible.

I respectfully disagree that avoiding 4*'s entirely will actually HELP you succeed in this game. Leaderboards clearly show top tens in PvE and PvP with plenty of 4* characters. Until these results change and we see many vets actively selling off all of their 4*'s to 'compete' then I'll have a tough time taking such a claim seriously.

warcin wrote:

The constant bait and switch of their nerfing borders on the immoral even if it is not illegal. Yes I know that MMOs nerf all the time but there is a huge difference. In MMO you are only out time played and normally the nerf is not so extreme as to destroy the character completely. In this game there is a direct map to money for many players not just time. Even with the "refunds" they offer, which are a joke compared to the cost, they do not actually refund the money invested but their in game currency only. This is going to hit the fan for the whole mobile game market at some point when it just becomes to egregious. It is just a bubble that is very soon going to have to burst.

I agree that the refunds being offered are a complete joke and this seriously needs to be addressed as a genuine improvement to the experience. Hearthstone refunds 100% of the dust cost of their cards so you can fully exchange a card for another one of the same rarity. This is a F2P solution to nerfs and one that's been well received. There's no reason MPQ couldn't adopt the same policy. Delete XF during refund period = fully leveled and covered Kingpin (for example).

That said, I 100% disagree with your stance on nerfing something being immoral or illegal. Maye you're new to onling gaming space but this has been normal for well over a decade in just about every online PC experience on the market. Even consoles get updates frequently now. People KNEW this was a part of MPQ the instant Rags got nerfed. Anything after that was fair game and no longer shocking. Characters WILL get nerfed and buffed. We've known this in MPQ for ages now.

warcin wrote:

The pvp changes were so universal despised but the complete lack of any discussion of communication over them is so telling of the attitudes of the developers of this game that it was the last straw. PVE is a painful grind and with scaling and it only hurt you more the longer you played the game, but I was ok with that since PVE could be where newer players spent time to advance, and PVP could be where the more veteran player could advance. But not anymore. Both PVP and PVE are now configured to make it easier for new players to advance and there is no longer any area of the game that rewards long term play or dedication.

I have to disagree yet again. We constantly see vets topping the charts for both leaderboards in Pve and PvP. I understand that a vet is more likely to put the effort required to do well than another player type but we have no direct clear evidence that vets have it harder than all other tiers of the game. IMO, as a vet, I feel as though I still have a strong competitive advantage thanks to my roster size and available resources. It's not nearly as big an advantage as it was 3 months ago but it's still there.

warcin wrote:

To those remaining I hope that you continue to have fun with the game, I know I did for a very long time and at its core there is still a good game there. Hopefully all of the feedback from the last couple of weeks is taken to heart and the game can be made at least a little more fun in the process.

Agreed. I think the core issue with the game now is to address the players time invest vs the rewards given out and the resources spent to acquire those rewards. The game is slower paced and deadlier now. The rewards are unchanged. The result of these 2 things are less fun for the player even though the game play itself is a lot more exciting (IMO).

Are you really debating someone who is explaining why he quit the game. Unbelievable. There are dozens of other threads to debate in this is just a thread of one guy saying bye and why.

God I would hate to see you at a funeral where you disagree with comments made by the speakers of the deceased.

Jonny1Punch

Agreed with the above. Babinro you're being incredibly rude and disrespectful. This was his post to say goodbye and state his reasons for leaving respectfully. Try to go debate your issues in one of the other gazillion topics available to do so.

If you can't say something nice or respectful then don't even post here. What a waste.

GuntherBlobel

The OP was doing two things 1) saying goodbye and 2) making an argument that things need to change.

It is respectful to 1) say goodbye and 2) respectfully disagree. If the only intention of the OP was to say goodbye, then anyone who replies to the OP's argument, even in agreement, is being equally disrespectful.

I don't know that warcin didn't want to talk about everything he posted. I'd let him respond if he wants to.

Sorry to see you go, Warcin.

Unknown

At least the game is "stable". Just look around, we made the very same complaints a FULL YEAR ago.

I peek into the forums time to time and all I see it still finds a way to go downhill. Lots of changes but no improvements, while just pushing out new characters at the same ungodly rate.

OTOH there seem to still be a player base -- not sure how, maybe too many people just talk goodby not doing it, maybe new players keep arriving? So it either still good enough for masses or those who keep complaining keep supporting it thus reinforcing the devs in all the trends.

So many games sit out there that are actually fun -- including in the genre similar to MPQ. Say Gems of War is a good example of how to go the opposite way.

babinro

itstime1234 wrote:

Are you really debating someone who is explaining why he quit the game. Unbelievable. There are dozens of other threads to debate in this is just a thread of one guy saying bye and why.

God I would hate to see you at a funeral where you disagree with comments made by the speakers of the deceased.

Jonny1Punch wrote:

Agreed with the above. Babinro you're being incredibly rude and disrespectful. This was his post to say goodbye and state his reasons for leaving respectfully. Try to go debate your issues in one of the other gazillion topics available to do so.

If you can't say something nice or respectful then don't even post here. What a waste.

I'd like to think I was abiding by the OP's wishes as Warcin did start the post off by saying this...

warcin wrote:

I am submitting this not just to be a flame on the way out but in hopes that it may bring discussions so that the game may be improved for those that remain.

It was not my intention to be incredibly rude and disrespectful.
Apologies.

Edit: I've gone ahead and spoilered my original post to help keep things more on topic.

GothicKratos

pasa_ wrote:

So many games sit out there that are actually fun -- including in the genre similar to MPQ. Say Gems of War is a good example of how to go the opposite way.

I already said my parting words, so I'm going to ere on the side of evil and go a little off-topic just to say "ick". I wasn't engaged by Gems of War at all. Lots of interesting sounding/looking mechanics, but no real depth without slapping down a bunch of money in the first couple hours. I played it when it first came out, so maybe it's better now, but I can't say I'd suggest GoW as a "better" version of MPQ. At least you can play MPQ for a good month or two without any serious stress on roster slots or placement.

Honestly, I felt about the same about Puzzle and Dragons. It was stressed to me that it's imperative to start on a "Godfest" and re-roll accounts until I managed to pull a 'God' character. That instantly discouraging and made me feel like it was going to be an utter grindfest. The board mechanics were interesting, but didn't ultimately feel that engaging over top of what was basically Brave Frontier.

That being said, I know I'm in the minority, especially with PaD. Just my two cents.

Unknown

GothicKratos wrote:

I already said my parting words, so I'm going to ere on the side of evil and go a little off-topic just to say "ick". I wasn't engaged by Gems of War at all. Lots of interesting sounding/looking mechanics, but no real depth without slapping down a bunch of money in the first couple hours. I played it when it first came out, so maybe it's better now, but I can't say I'd suggest GoW as a "better" version of MPQ. At least you can play MPQ for a good month or two without any serious stress on roster slots or placement.

I'm a little baffled, you definitely don't need to pay a coin in GOW, EVER if you have a slightest clue on how to play. And if you're any good money can't buy you anything meaningful really. It's well in the past so my recollection fades, you may have a slow start for maybe a week. Then the gold income keeps up with spending, and soon you just swim in it. And all other resources just keep coming through you just playing the game. Even if you just play in the most naive way as I did at the start. There are excellent guides for jump-start.

Certainly your fun will depend on what you are after. If you enjoyed the MPQ way of climbing and shield-hoping, pack all possible mana boosts to squeeze in 3 games before the zombie horde spots you; the adrenaline rush on finishing the game to see if you're 20 points up or 130 down -- then GOW is not for you, it has no direct competition for either individuals or guilds.

But if you played it just to get certain desired covers you missed and ISO gained on the way, all the leader-boards being just unavoidable trouble you'd rather not have? GOW gives you just that. You can play as much or as little, at any time points for the same results. (Okay, you are little better off climbing to top on the first day of new events, but it's really minor.

Also MPQ is tuned to the (IMNSHO) worst and most limited way of the m3 game. The devs here did everything to keep it the purest match-hunt and damage-centered abilities. Killing the other aspects even if they took root. Most blatant example was CMags that for me bought several months of new life here. As it added the board manipulation. Hood could collect mana. MStorm could collect env tiles that you could use. All those kind of plays got disabled to keep the game the most boring it can be, also adding effects to make every game long as possible. I see it still happening with the recent next incarnation of enemy HP boosting.

In GOW the majority of the abilities are related to the board state, boost by presence of color, color removal, color mutation, point, row, column, block explosion with mana collect, ability boosts/nerfs. You can play very many different things -- and so does the opposition. Yeah, and your troops have no standing damage so losing only costs you the ounce of gold of the entry fee that is trivial to gain back.

The AI is also not set to be incredibly dumb -- it is not looking ahead keeping you some edge but takes all the benefit moves and clearly prefers colors it or you can use. So there is actual challenge (those who can't stand losing shall better pass .

If you join a guild you get keys and gems much faster so can complete the roster fast (except legendaries that are cool but not at all necessary), while for leveling the challenges and the arena gives you good ways to win the needed souls. Just playing -- and playing different stuff, not grinding/farming.

Certainly some teams are more effective than others, so you may fell to overuse some team. When I got to such a dull phase they added the Arena minigame -- where you draft your team on the spot form random 3x3 offers and fight others' similar teams. What supplies as much variateion as you can take. For some really good prizes too. And recently those prized got a serious BOOST. So you get more gold than the entry fee just winning 2 games. A way to go.
In a few weeks we're supposed to get another minigame.

I recall MPQ was more like a second JOB even when it was the most rewarding. (And most of its fun was really outside of play...) GOW is yet pretty weak on guild stuff and has things to improve but it goes in the good direction and devs aim to serve the players, new and old ones. Not a slightest sign of punishing the excellence (or being veteran or not paying or whatever).

So yeah, I do assert GOW is a way better MPQ in all areas where they are comparable.

GothicKratos

You have a lot of valid points, but from reading what you said, it sounds mostly like you didn't play any PvP at all, and stuck only to the single-player PvE experience (and there's nothing wrong with that). I played for about two weeks, when it first came out, and opening up all the "normal" content was easy enough, and Gold was dispersed pretty heavy-handedly if that was all you were doing, definitely.

However, if that's how you're going to compare it to MPQ, I mean, that's hardly fair.

MPQ is setup to be competition-centric (and that's not for everyone). GoW is setup to be a not-so-competitive environment. You're going to hit a point, kind of like in Hearthstone, where if you're F2P, you're going to hit a curve, and hit is extremely hard, where your input doesn't meet your output. If you're playing the single-player, not-so-competitive aspects of the game, it doesn't strike you as such a big deal, but if you want to interact with other players at all....well good luck with that free pack a day.

Now, what I'll give you is, because of how GoW is, there is a perceived lack of pressure if say, you miss a day of play, where because of the environment that MPQ keeps itself in, it feels like you're missing a ton if you miss a day of MPQ. The reality isn't really so, though, if you miss a day of MPQ, you might miss a cover, sure, but you'll be able to play practically just as much going forward (minus, potentially some essential nodes).

I'd show evidence to this by pointing to my own MPQ experience. I've never been a top placement kinda guy in MPQ. I've played a lot of other games for that trophy, so I understand the urge to be the best, but not here. I've got about three 3*s coming up to being max covered (and about two or three more "usable" if I threw ISO into them). Been playing for about a year now (and I haven't played steadily in probably the last two months). Once I kick back into it, I have about 3k HP and about 500k ISO to pour into people, and I'll be able to place well if I really want to. Don't think I really want to, because there's not enough reward for the time input imo, but I could easily do it and could have done it for awhile now.

Unknown

GothicKratos wrote:

You have a lot of valid points, but from reading what you said, it sounds mostly like you didn't play any PvP at all, and stuck only to the single-player PvE experience (and there's nothing wrong with that). I played for about two weeks, when it first came out, and opening up all the "normal" content was easy enough, and Gold was dispersed pretty heavy-handedly if that was all you were doing, definitely.

Not sure what you mean, if I npt payet pvp in gow or mpq. Though not true for either

GothicKratos wrote:

However, if that's how you're going to compare it to MPQ, I mean, that's hardly fair.

Yeah, that is the same I said. In GOW the pvp is common only in that you play against other people's teams played by the AI. But in gow you just get the instant reward from the game and there is no tabulation at all, IOW there is no competition on the individual level *at all*. And on guild level there is a table by trophies but no active player cares about it. (That may change on the promised reset but it takes just a few weeks to pass the 100% bonus level and nothing else matters.)

And you certainly need no money infusion to play pvp with a good win ratio. For gaining gold you had to play more in the early times but they increased the gold gain significantly.

In short, for those who think the game experience in MPQ is more frustration than joy and rewards require excessive effort, either in time or playing at set timepoints GOW is a really good switch.