Credit Card Chargebacks - The Real Scoop

Unknown

This seems to be a burning issue right now, so I thought I should make a post to explain as much as possible what is likely to happen if you do a chargeback on a credit card charge. I work for an online company with a Fraud team in place for this sort of thing, and I've assisted them on a number of occasions. I know the process pretty well. I've spoken to representatives from all the major credit card companies, and I know what their processes are as well.

So here is how this works, from an inside perspective.

You're upset at D3 for [insert reason here]. Either you contacted D3 to complain and didn't like the response you got, or you skipped that whole step and went directly to Apple/Google/Visa/Mastercard/whomever. Believe me when I tell you that none of those companies is going to know what D3's refund policies or EULA terms are, and they are not going to look them up. You request a chargeback, they put through a chargeback, you get your money back.

Now this is the part you likely aren't aware of. Apple/Google/Visa/Mastercard/whomever is out the money they've credited back to you. They will then contact D3's Fraud team directly with your credit card charge (time, date, amount, card #, and IP address), and advise that you contacted them and requested a chargeback. D3 will review the charge and inform Apple/Google/Visa/Mastercard/whomever that this is a valid charge and therefore is a fraudulent chargeback and will likely point to the EULA terms - which will clearly show that you were not entitled to a refund, and therefore the chargeback is fraudulent. At this point, Apple/Google/Visa/Mastercard/whomever is likely to reinstate the charge on your credit card, D3 is likely going to ban/sandbox you for breaking the terms of the EULA, and you'll also end up with your credit history being ruined. There's also a pretty good chance that, much like a non-sufficient funds check, your banking institution is going to levy a charge against your account - although that doesn't seem to happen consistently.

I'm not telling anyone what they should be doing, but if you're going to do a chargeback on a credit card charge, this is exactly what you can expect.

Vinmarc43

YOU ARE RIGHT.
Charge backs in this situation is dum-dum-dum, could cause you problems for nothing.

TaoSpoons

This is some real good knowledge here. I wonder if it will actually sway people's behavior.

Probably not.

Unknown

Good info, thanks for sharing. Not worth the trouble and headache. +1

Unknown

It certainly wont sway the game developers behavior from changing things you have already paid for to something completely different.

There are always 2 sides to an argument.

Unknown

I wonder (and doubt) if anyone on this forum has had this experience considering the amount of refunds, disputes and nerfs have occurred over the last 500+ days.

Anyone here in a legal dispute with D3 over refunds and claims of fraud?

TaoSpoons

CoolB76 wrote:

It certainly wont sway the game developers behavior from changing things you have already paid for to something completely different.

There are always 2 sides to an argument.

The original post is an explanation of a process. Why do you think it's an argument, exactly?

Unknown

MikeHock wrote:

I wonder (and doubt) if anyone on this forum has had this experience considering the amount of refunds, disputes and nerfs have occurred over the last 500+ days.

Anyone here in a legal dispute with D3 over refunds and claims of fraud?

There won't be any kind of legal dispute over a chargeback, there are already processes in place at both D3 and Apple/Google/Visa/Mastercard to deal with this. No one is going to be charged with fraud. Your credit record is going to take a hit, and likely your bank balance also. Whether or not D3 decides to ban anyone is up to them, but they would be within their rights to do so.

Also, when you claim a chargeback, it isn't going to be presented to D3 immediately. I don't know if they get chargebacks reported weekly, bi-weekly, or monthly (we get ours at the end of each month) but there will be a delay from the time the chargeback is made to the time D3 responds to it.

Unknown

TaoSpoons wrote:

CoolB76 wrote:

It certainly wont sway the game developers behavior from changing things you have already paid for to something completely different.

There are always 2 sides to an argument.

The original post is an explanation of a process. Why do you think it's an argument, exactly?

It was in reply to your comment to which I forgot to quote. However you already know this. Why are you feeling defensive about my comment?

D2KM_

This is great info thank you for this post!! Just curious what about ppl who use gift cards to purchase goods in game instead of a credit card? How is that process audited/reported if there was no credit card transaction?

Unknown

D2KM_ wrote:

This is great info thank you for this post!! Just curious what about ppl who use gift cards to purchase goods in game instead of a credit card? How is that process audited/reported if there was no credit card transaction?

That's a great question, and one I unfortunately don't have the answer to. All of the transactions our company handles are done through credit cards - no cash, no checks, no gift cards.

Unknown

This is actually incredibly inaccurate

First of all here is Apples developer policy

6.3 In the event that Apple receives any notice or claim from any end-user that: (i) the end-user wishes to cancel its license to any of the Licensed Applications within ninety (90) days of the date of download of that Licensed Application by that end-user; or (ii) a Licensed Application fails to conform to Your specifications or Your product warranty or the requirements of any applicable law, Apple may refund to the end-user the full amount of the price paid by the end-user for that Licensed Application. In the event that Apple refunds any such price to an end-user, You shall reimburse, or grant Apple a credit for, an amount equal to the price for that Licensed Application. Apple will have the right to retain its commission on the sale of that Licensed Application, notwithstanding the refund of the price to the end-user.

So there are two scenarios

Requesting refund from Apple
Refund is entirely at Apples discretion. They will read over your complaint and determine if a refund is warranted. It doesn't matter what d3's eula states, Apple's agreement states they can and will refund customers within 90days of purchase, d3 cannot deny users this right (atleast on Apple devices) as this is part of their agreement with Apple. This will not involve any D3 fraud department, Apple has final say. D3 accepts it or pulls their app from the app store. It's non-negotiable. Someone else feel free to look up googles developer agreement it might in all fairness be different. For refunds if you purchase via Credit Card apple will refund the purchase on to your credit card, for gift cards they will return as an app store credit.

Refunding via Credit Card charge back
Refund request is between your credit card company and apple (who actually processed the charge), D3's involvement would be limited to proving Apple any supporting information they need in the event they choose to fight it. Once again its up to Apple whether they choose to fight the charge back or not. In the event the charge back goes through I'm not sure what Apple would do (could not find specific reference in developer agreement or eula), but I would expect they would once again bill the developer.

So my advice in all cases would be to attempt to go through Apple/Google directly.

On a side not OP's explanation is 100% valid for most purchases, however in the case of app stores additional layers of protection are offered by the provider.

Unknown

The user only has an advantage if the credit card used is stolen. That is, if I stole your credit card and bought myself 10 Stark Salaries and gift 10 more to a bunch of guys, and eventually the original owner finds out and chargebacks those charges. The owner doesn't lose anything reputation wise provided he can prove I indeed stole this stuff. Even if there was a way for D3 to eventually found out I'm the fraud and ban me, there's no reasonable way you'd expect the guys I gifted the HP purchases to verify the source is legit so in this case D3 will likely have to eat up these HP I bought for other guys because if I offered you a free Stark Salary your first reaction isn't going to be 'report this guy for credit card fraud'. No you might think it's too good to be true but it's certainly not your responsibilty to investigate why I am offering free stuff to you.

Of course, that does bring to the question if you stole someone's credit card isn't there better things to use it on than Stark Salaries? But there's no rule that says credit card thieves can't like to play games. From what I can tell you can chargeback stuff if you've a legitmate cause but 'they nerfed my character' probably isn't going to work. I remember seeing a lot of threads about people successfully chargeback stuff in Summoner's War when cheating is rampant and an explanation of 'spending money to buy in game currency when everyone else hacks their way to the top is a fraud' seems to stand up pretty well. But that's an unusually ironclad case for the customers compared to most situations I am aware of.

Azoic

Ever hear of World of warcraft? You pay a lot of money to them for the game. You pay a sub. And you know what are constantly released? Patch notes tweaking all the classes, balancing the game. Guess what? You won't get a refund from Blizzard for them nerfing your hunter

TaoSpoons

CoolB76 wrote:

TaoSpoons wrote:

CoolB76 wrote:

It certainly wont sway the game developers behavior from changing things you have already paid for to something completely different.

There are always 2 sides to an argument.

The original post is an explanation of a process. Why do you think it's an argument, exactly?

It was in reply to your comment to which I forgot to quote. However you already know this. Why are you feeling defensive about my comment?

Frankly, your post looks like it's either unrelated to the original or an attempt to tangent the discussion into the arena of what is and isn't justified. The original post doesn't address justification and in fact, the last line of it specifically goes out of its way to indicate that. Saying there's an argument where there isn't struck me as odd, so I posed the question.

And if you're about to suggest that my post does address justification, I invite you to quote where I specifically state what I think people should and shouldn't do.

lokiagentofhotness

does d3 even have a fraud department? is some joe blow sitting in a d3 office going "no yes TOTALLY that was a fraudulent request for a refund of $2.99 please give that dude a bad credit rating" when apple calls him - which should be quite often i imagine considering all the nerfs and how many unhappy customers abound.

Punisher5784

The point is, if you do not like the recent changes to the game then you either deal with it and adapt or you stop playing. Calling you credit card company to request money back is ridiculous. While I do not agree with some of D3's refund policies (delete the entire character), they do at least attempt to soften the blow.

snlf25

Punisher5784 wrote:

The point is, if you do not like the recent changes to the game then you either deal with it and adapt or you stop playing. Calling you credit card company to request money back is ridiculous. While I do not agree with some of D3's refund policies (delete the entire character), they do at least attempt to soften the blow.

Or option three, ask for a refund, state your case and await a decision from apple or google. Which does not constitute fraud so long as you do not lie about why you feel you are entitled a refund. AND NO I have not ever spent money on covers or asked for or received a refund! I just understand where people are coming from and I think this fraud talk is silly. Except when it comes to chargebacks, that IS dirty pool and highly unethical.

TaoSpoons

garbageman72 wrote:

D2KM_ wrote:

This is great info thank you for this post!! Just curious what about ppl who use gift cards to purchase goods in game instead of a credit card? How is that process audited/reported if there was no credit card transaction?

That's a great question, and one I unfortunately don't have the answer to. All of the transactions our company handles are done through credit cards - no cash, no checks, no gift cards.

Gift cards are a different animal. They fall into the category of prepaid accounts because existing money and not credit forms the basis for their value. A chargeback in that circumstance is substantially similar to trying to place a stop payment on a check you've written from your own bank account - there's no middleman with a stake in the situation.

One key difference is that most prepaid accounts close immediately upon being emptied. Since most gift cards are used in full on their first purchase, delayed chargebacks are more difficult because the account is usually closed. Businesses frequently offer alternative forms of repayment, such as store credit or direct repayment to another medium in those circumstances. The catch, however, is that involves dealing directly with the business to reach a satisfactory outcome. If you're already arguing with the business, the likelihood of that's probably not great.

Edit: I should also add, a lot of prepaid accounts freeze the value of the account at the time of creation and don't allow anyone to add funds. Hence the lack of need for an extensive audit process.

Unknown

lokiagentofhotness wrote:

does d3 even have a fraud department? is some joe blow sitting in a d3 office going "no yes TOTALLY that was a fraudulent request for a refund of $2.99 please give that dude a bad credit rating" when apple calls him - which should be quite often i imagine considering all the nerfs and how many unhappy customers abound.

As sad as it may seem, yes D3 likely has at least one person whose job is to look into this kind of thing. That person would have no say in the repercussions of a chargeback, only to verify if a chargeback is valid or not. It would also probably be the same person who handles investigating charges to stolen credit cards. Then again, as someone else pointed out, since this is an app and is provided for download through Apple or Google (which is much different than the company I work for) that person may work for Apple or Google instead. But somewhere along the line, there is someone responsible for dealing with these kinds of things on a routine basis.

_RiO_

Azoic wrote:

Ever hear of World of warcraft? You pay a lot of money to them for the game. You pay a sub. And you know what are constantly released? Patch notes tweaking all the classes, balancing the game. Guess what? You won't get a refund from Blizzard for them nerfing your hunter

You also didn't pay specifically to unlock the hunter as a class. You paid once for the license to the game itself and you pay monthly for continued online access to the game world.

And before anyone drags that already-beaten-to-death horse back up for another round: no, you didn't pay to get HP. You paid to get the XForce covers. The only way to do that is through buying HP as an intermediary in the payment process and no sane judge alive would rule any differently.