Mistakes in health boosts?

Nonce Equitaur 2

I just finished a gigantic update to the Character Compendium and pretty much every character page.

Here's the new health breakdown for 3* characters. See if you can spot the things that are really weird.

5100 - The Hood
5950 - Loki
6800 - Daken, Wolverine (Patch), Squirrel Girl
7565 - Storm
7650 - Iron Fist
8075 - Black Widow, Falcon, Human Torch, Mystique
8670 - Beast, Blade, Daredevil, Deadpool, Doctor Octopus, Kamala Khan, Magneto, Psylocke, Quicksilver, Spider-Man, The Punisher
9265 - Cyclops
9690 - Black Panther, Captain America, Captain Marvel, Doctor Doom, Gamora, Iron Man, Luke Cage
10200- Thor
10710- Colossus, Ragnarok, Rocket and Groot, Sentry, She-Hulk
11475- The Hulk

Daken, Patch, Hood, Loki are all very popular at the moment, and the first two have regen, so maybe okay to skip health buffs on these guys.

Why didn't Squirrel Girl get a health buff?
Why are Hood, Loki, Storm, Iron Fist, Cyclops, and Thor all alone, each with a unique health?
Why do 11 characters all have an identical health of 8670?

Overall, I think the update is good.

EDIT -- Squirrel girl *does* get a boost, but I could swear she didn't when I copied everything in order to do the update.

Unknown

Squirrel Girl got a boost, putting her in the bigger catagory...

Squirrel Girl- Old: 6800; New: 8670 (+1870 increase)

I would agree that healing is the blame for Daken and Patch, the others are an indirect nerf from most opinions.

I agree tho that it is odd that there are not clearly defined levels like there used to be. And that the loners stand out as being odd especially.

DaveR4470

I'm wondering -- and this is complete and utter speculation -- whether there's now some undisclosed formula used in character design that determines health based on some sort of metric involving time to trigger skills and damage dealt by said skills. The bottom health tier 3* look to be either characters who self-generate (Mohawk) or steal (Hood) AP, and therefore (in theory) have shorter trigger times. The chars who take longer to get going (e.g. Hulk or R&G) have more. And characters who do proportionately more damage -- Mr. Rand, I'm looking at you -- have less health to "balance" that.

Just a thought.

orionpeace

Nonce, you're back!

Nonce Equitaur 2

orionpeace wrote:

Nonce, you're back!

I was trying to look up some stats, and nothing had been updated in months. Mistakes all over the place. Pandemonium. And an impending colossal update. I figured no-one else would do it, so I went in and made all the necessary changes.

Zen808

DaveR4470 wrote:

I'm wondering -- and this is complete and utter speculation -- whether there's now some undisclosed formula used in character design that determines health based on some sort of metric involving time to trigger skills and damage dealt by said skills. The bottom health tier 3* look to be either characters who self-generate (Mohawk) or steal (Hood) AP, and therefore (in theory) have shorter trigger times. The chars who take longer to get going (e.g. Hulk or R&G) have more. And characters who do proportionately more damage -- Mr. Rand, I'm looking at you -- have less health to "balance" that.

Just a thought.

If by "formula" you mean a dartboard...

I jest.

Maybe...

OnesOwnGrief

Hey Nonce, appreciate the work you have done for this community. I had a question since it's been bugging me since the announcement of this particular thing. Do you happen to have a spreadsheet or document on Damage:AP on active powers for each character? I'm trying to figure out the relationship between these health increases and the average Damage:AP of abilities. It's obvious that it's going to require more AP on average to down characters, but how much is the question. Feels like characters were given just enough HP to survival 1 or 2 powers greater on average than they did before.

FaustianDeal

If memory serves, aren't the characters excluded from the health bump all on the list of characters that were 'block buffed' --> 280 during that experimental week?

It seems like the experiment they were running there was to decide if the meta could tolerate those characters getting a health boost or not. Probably monitored how long it took for those characters to take what would be lethal damage at a variety of levels and had to admit that they probably couldn't tolerate a boost of any kind without still being too dominant in the meta.

Unknown

Sounds about rights. The buffs were to Professor X, Fury, six 3s, and some 2s and 1s.

The only buffed 3 to get a health boost that I can see is IM40, as Patch, Hood, Loki, etc all were kept as is.

Ares was one of the buffed 2s and didn't get a buff either.

Unknown

The Iron Fist/Thor non boosts are arbitrary. Based on their damage output being good enough for the health they have or something. It's dumb. Especially Iron Fist not getting boosted but Cyclops getting bumped. I consider Cyclops to be better than Iron Fist. A lot of Iron Fist's "Damage" is going away with XF black being so unrepeatable.

Self healers I kinda understand. Their HP total is bigger than their existing HP anyway. It's still kinda dumb that Wolverine can be taken out by a large hit tho.

Hood/Loki is basically part of the ongoing war on AP generation. I would have at least given Hood 5950 HP. Loki kinda deserves the bump to 8075 with the others. I mean, what's his damage output really? Oh right it's 0.

Storm is all together just hosed apparently. She never deserved to be at 5100 and now she still has too few HP to be usable IMO.

8670 is the new 6800. They could have taken this chance to put Cyclops back into a regular health tier, but they went ahead and kept him ahead of the pack because reasons I guess.

OnesOwnGrief

Now that I think about it, outside of Surgical Strike and Righteous Uppercut, what other abilities are their in the game that will just outright down Patch? Seems like either way you look at it, you're gonna need 11-13 AP in one color at least to do it. Even Human Torch will need 14 Red to do it.

FaustianDeal

Cyclops Black will drop Patch with enough red on the board.
Mystique's black too, but the shapeshift countdown needs to be out.
Squirrel Girl's purple *almost* gets there if there are enough enemy tiles out

Other's get close if you wait for him to go berzerker first... (course you had to absorb it and any ensuing match damage...)

d0nk3y

OnesOwnGrief wrote:

Now that I think about it, outside of Surgical Strike and Righteous Uppercut, what other abilities are their in the game that will just outright down Patch? Seems like either way you look at it, you're gonna need 11-13 AP in one color at least to do it. Even Human Torch will need 14 Red to do it.

Diabolical Plot, but you'll have to not only collect violet but have a board with enough violet trap tiles to blast him that hard. It's not impossible - I've one-shotted powered-up Juggernauts a few times using this. Looks like Cyclops could pull this off as well using an overpowered Full Blast, but just like Doom it requires two conditions to be met to work.

OnesOwnGrief

That's still rather short list of characters and as far as my PvP match-ups have been concerned, all of them have been missing in action for the most part. This is why I think these health changes and the balances accompanied by it are not as bad as people think. Having more characters being actual participants in PvP is definitely a plus.

Kolence

Is Masterstroke enough? I realize it's 8 + 11 AP which together with her third power generating those colors, probably takes the same time as collecting 13-14 AP in single color?

Unknown

OnesOwnGrief wrote:

Now that I think about it, outside of Surgical Strike and Righteous Uppercut, what other abilities are their in the game that will just outright down Patch? Seems like either way you look at it, you're gonna need 11-13 AP in one color at least to do it. Even Human Torch will need 14 Red to do it.

Let's not forget good old 4Thor. Power Smite will do enough to kill him, while it does not have enough damage to kill even Storm for 19 AP now, who is apparently so fragile as to deserve her own health tier but stronger than Wolverine.

OnesOwnGrief

Lerysh wrote:

OnesOwnGrief wrote:

Now that I think about it, outside of Surgical Strike and Righteous Uppercut, what other abilities are their in the game that will just outright down Patch? Seems like either way you look at it, you're gonna need 11-13 AP in one color at least to do it. Even Human Torch will need 14 Red to do it.

Let's not forget good old 4Thor. Power Smite will do enough to kill him, while it does not have enough damage to kill even Storm for 19 AP now, who is apparently so fragile as to deserve her own health tier but stronger than Wolverine.

Went and did the math and she does exactly 7650 if she keeps all 5 tiles from blue. Enough to down anyone up to Iron Fist tier.

Eddiemon

Lerysh wrote:

It's still kinda dumb that Wolverine can be taken out by a large hit tho.

Why? Wolverine dies in the comics a LOT. Every other character is aware of their mortality and takes defensive measures whereas Wolverine just attacks with no regard for safety. It was even one of the themes before his current 'death' when he lost his healing factor and realised he suddenly had to block and avoid every attack which wasn't his fighting style. They also ran a comic line on what he experiences everytime he is dead while waiting for his brain to grow back.

GuntherBlobel

Thank you so much Nonce for updating the Compendium! Truly an amazing resource.

morph3us

OnesOwnGrief wrote:

Now that I think about it, outside of Surgical Strike and Righteous Uppercut, what other abilities are their in the game that will just outright down Patch? Seems like either way you look at it, you're gonna need 11-13 AP in one color at least to do it. Even Human Torch will need 14 Red to do it.

Add Demolition to that list too, but as you say, you're going to need 10AP in one colour at least to do it.

Nonce Equitaur 2

Magneto 2* - Old: 3,920 - New: 4,998
Spider-man 2* - Old: 3,920 - New: 4,998
Wolverine 2* - Old: 3,920 - New: 4,998

Could they possibly see it in their hearts to give each of these guys an extra 2 health? for a nice round 5000? Or maybe 102 heath, so they could be on par with The Hood?