Health Increase % and Total by Character (RIP Tanks)

jobob

So... As someone who enjoys trying to use every character, and having them fill roles like damage dealer, support, tank... what the Hell is going on with the health update? I read the description, but it looks like you penalized the top health guys a little TOO much.

Your major tanks (Colossus, She-Hulk, R&G, Sentry & Ragnarok. got minimal health upgrades of 5%: 10,200 -> 10,710

...But some of the damage dealers and support roles... holy cow. Nearly 60% for IW! Now I can buy it 'cause she's a 4*, but multiple 3* are getting increases of 36% (even close to 50% in Storm's case!)

Even when looking at it as total health, instead of a percentage... you have several 2*s getting a bump of over 1,000 health, while your main 3* tanks barely get 500?

Was that number a typo for the 3* tanks? Was it supposed to be 13,710 instead of 10,710 or something? What gives? I get boosting the lower guys, but this seems like it's going too far the other way, and virtually eliminating the role of a tank.

+ 58% - Invisible Woman- Old: 8220; New: 13015 (+4795 increase)
+ 48% - Bullseye- Old: 2460; New: 3649 (+1189 increase)
+ 48% - Storm 3*- Old: 5100; New: 7565 (+2465 increase)
+ 36% - Black Widow 3*- Old: 5950; New: 8075 (+2125 increase)
+ 36% - Falcon- Old: 5950; New: 8075 (+2125 increase)
+ 36% - Human Torch 3*- Old: 5950; New: 8075 (+2125 increase)
+ 36% - Mystique- Old: 5950; New: 8075 (+2125 increase)
+ 36% - Nick Fury- Old: 9590; New: 13015 (+3425 increase)
+ 28% - Beast- Old: 6800; New: 8670 (+1870 increase)
+ 28% - Blade- Old: 6800; New: 8670 (+1870 increase)
+ 28% - Daredevil- Old: 6800; New: 8670 (+1870 increase)
+ 28% - Deadpool- Old: 6800; New: 8670 (+1870 increase)
+ 28% - Doctor Octopus- Old: 6800; New: 8670 (+1870 increase)
+ 28% - Elektra- Old: 10960; New: 13974 (+3014 increase)
+ 28% - Kamala Khan- Old: 6800; New: 8670 (+1870 increase)
+ 28% - Magneto 3*- Old: 6800; New: 8670 (+1870 increase)
+ 28% - Magneto 2*- Old: 3920; New: 4998 (+1078 increase)
+ 28% - Psylocke- Old: 6800; New: 8670 (+1870 increase)
+ 28% - Punisher- Old: 6800; New: 8670 (+1870 increase)
+ 28% - Quicksilver- Old: 6800; New: 8670 (+1870 increase)
+ 28% - Spider-man 3*- Old: 6800; New: 8670 (+1870 increase)
+ 28% - Spider-man 2*- Old: 3920; New: 4998 (+1078 increase)
+ 28% - Squirrel Girl- Old: 6800; New: 8670 (+1870 increase)
+ 28% - Star-Lord- Old: 10960; New: 13974 (+3014 increase)
+ 28% - Wolverine 2*- Old: 3920; New: 4998 (+1078 increase)
+ 27% - Hawkeye 2*- Old: 3430; New: 4361 (+931 increase)
+ 27% - Human Torch 2*- Old: 3430; New: 4361 (+931 increase)
+ 21% - Cyclops 3*- Old: 7650; New: 9265 (+1615 increase)
+ 14% - Black Panther- Old: 8500; New: 9690 (+1190 increase)
+ 14% - Captain America 2*- Old: 4900; New: 5586 (+686 increase)
+ 14% - Captain America 3*- Old: 8500; New: 9690 (+1190 increase)
+ 14% - Captain Marvel 3*- Old: 8500; New: 9690 (+1190 increase)
+ 14% - Captain Marvel 2*- Old: 4900; New: 5586 (+686 increase)
+ 14% - Doctor Doom- Old: 8500; New: 9690 (+1190 increase)
+ 14% - Gamora- Old: 8500; New: 9690 (+1190 increase)
+ 14% - Iron Man 3*- Old: 8500; New: 9690 (+1190 increase)
+ 14% - Kingpin- Old: 13700; New: 15618 (+1918 increase)
+ 14% - Luke Cage- Old: 8500; New: 9690 (+1190 increase)
+ 14% - Moonstone- Old: 4900; New: 5586 (+686 increase)
+ 5% - Colossus- Old: 10200; New: 10710 (+510 increase)
+ 5% - Ragnarok- Old: 10200; New: 10710 (+510 increase)
+ 5% - Rocket & Groot- Old: 10200; New: 10710 (+510 increase)
+ 5% - Sentry- Old: 10200; New: 10710 (+510 increase)
+ 5% - She-Hulk- Old: 10200; New: 10710 (+510 increase)
+ 5% - Thor 4*- Old: 16440; New: 17262 (+822 increase)

Unknown

Probably worthwhile to add the 0% to your list - Hood, Loki, Patch. XF and whoever else

OnesOwnGrief

Luke Cage is the only one true tank. Others are just durable. Praise him.

wymtime

First thanks for the graph showing total increase and I will say I agree with you. I will also look at this from the Devs point of view. They have a lot of characters that because of there low health are just not used. HT, Storm, GSBW, and others true healers that heal faster out of the game, but are not used much because they can be killed with one shot aka Deadpool, spiderman(ok more issues with him), Blade. The Devs want these characters to be more playable in the game and instead of redesigning ALL of them they get a health buff so they can last longer in fights.
To your point this makes the Tanks much less tanky. Anyone who is slow with a big punch can still be usefull, but will only be able to one shot in game true healers Patch, Daken and the 2 best offensive support characters in the game Hood and Loki(notice neither of the, got health buffs). I think this hurts R&G, Hulk, and Thor the most as their Health was being able to withstand a big hit was a big reason why they were usefull.
I would imagine the Devs want players to stop playing Patch/Daken so much. They have to be some of the most common 3* used because they can come out of a match damage free. I also think they feel Loki's and Hood's AP steals a too powerful and instead of nerfing those abilities have made them the most squishy characters in the game.
Overall a lot more characters will become playable again, but fights will take a lot longer so I don't know what will be better for the game.

jobob

wymtime wrote:

First thanks for the graph showing total increase and I will say I agree with you. I will also look at this from the Devs point of view. They have a lot of characters that because of there low health are just not used. HT, Storm, GSBW, and others true healers that heal faster out of the game, but are not used much because they can be killed with one shot aka Deadpool, spiderman(ok more issues with him), Blade. The Devs want these characters to be more playable in the game and instead of redesigning ALL of them they get a health buff so they can last longer in fights.
To your point this makes the Tanks much less tanky. Anyone who is slow with a big punch can still be usefull, but will only be able to one shot in game true healers Patch, Daken and the 2 best offensive support characters in the game Hood and Loki(notice neither of the, got health buffs). I think this hurts R&G, Hulk, and Thor the most as their Health was being able to withstand a big hit was a big reason why they were usefull.
I would imagine the Devs want players to stop playing Patch/Daken so much. They have to be some of the most common 3* used because they can come out of a match damage free. I also think they feel Loki's and Hood's AP steals a too powerful and instead of nerfing those abilities have made them the most squishy characters in the game.
Overall a lot more characters will become playable again, but fights will take a lot longer so I don't know what will be better for the game.

I understand and agree with all that. I just fail to see how increasing the high health characters- whose health was a feature of the character as much as any active/passive power- would somehow make the damage dealers less playable.

Even if you don't give them a 36% buff like a lot of the 3*s... even 20% would be substantial and give me reason to think about taking a 12k health tank in over a 9k damage dealer. But 10k vs 9k? What's the point?

Unknown

I think the health increase is justified since the tanks and true healers for the most part also have pretty good damage. I would certainly pick a character that has double health but only 25% more AP cost. The health update shifts the Tank class into more of a Warrior class when compared to the Mages. I think the goal is to have the tradeoff be more balanced: Warriors have 20% more health but 20% fewer damage per AP compared to Mages. I would love to finally see a state of the game where in PvP I would be equally likely to pick LThor or Mohawk as opponent, and I have a lot of match variety instead of seeing the same Hulk, LThor, Wolverin, Daken teams dominating the higher ranks.

GuntherBlobel

They aren't just equalizing health across the board, they're flipping the meta game on its head. Players (over) value health. I think we're going to see much more diversity now. Its a bold move by the Devs.

I think they need to rework Colossus, though. His high health was more connected to his powerset than any other character I can think of.

DaveR4470

OnesOwnGrief wrote:

Luke Cage is the only one true tank. Others are just durable. Praise him.

"Baby, they don't call me Power Man for nothin'. You dig?"

morph3us

wymtime wrote:

I think this hurts R&G, Hulk, and Thor the most as their Health was being able to withstand a big hit was a big reason why they were usefull.

I'd argue that the health increase doesn't really hurt R&G all that much. Grocket's main advantage is that they have essentially infinite health, if you manage it right, and enough health to not be one shotted by anyone, and the health buffs don't really change that.

I'd also argue that the prospect of increasing Hulk's health is a two-edged sword, as any health increases would also increase the amount of damage required to proc Anger, which is the main reason why you bring him along.

jobob

morph3us wrote:

I'd argue that the health increase doesn't really hurt R&G all that much. Grocket's main advantage is that they have essentially infinite health, if you manage it right, and enough health to not be one shotted by anyone, and the health buffs don't really change that.

I'd also argue that the prospect of increasing Hulk's health is a two-edged sword, as any health increases would also increase the amount of damage required to proc Anger, which is the main reason why you bring him along.

I may be playing him wrong, but I don't find R&G all that useful anyway. The problem with his yellow is that you get one-shotted from above 25% where it doesn't trigger, to 0, a lot. You need to get him close to max level to get him tanking... but that means it takes several turns to whittle him down below 2,500 health. But at that point in a match, special moves are firing left and right, and they very frequently do enough to finish him off.

As far as Hulk goes... point taken, but I don't think it would affect things a ton anyway. Even if you increased him from 10k -> 15k, anger triggers at max level at 750 damage vs 500. Most special moves are still going to trigger. And, if you have max level Hulk, you probably have close to max level Patch, who will get the enemy team to 750 anyway. Anger shouldn't trigger over normal match 3 & 4s. Plus, the extra health would be nice since Anger damages Hulk as well. 3* vs 4* or not... I just think it's silly for Invisible Woman to have 25% more health than Hulk.

rednailz

wymtime wrote:

First thanks for the graph showing total increase and I will say I agree with you. I will also look at this from the Devs point of view. They have a lot of characters that because of there low health are just not used. HT, Storm, GSBW, and others true healers that heal faster out of the game, but are not used much because they can be killed with one shot aka Deadpool, spiderman(ok more issues with him), Blade. The Devs want these characters to be more playable in the game and instead of redesigning ALL of them they get a health buff so they can last longer in fights.
To your point this makes the Tanks much less tanky. Anyone who is slow with a big punch can still be usefull, but will only be able to one shot in game true healers Patch, Daken and the 2 best offensive support characters in the game Hood and Loki(notice neither of the, got health buffs). I think this hurts R&G, Hulk, and Thor the most as their Health was being able to withstand a big hit was a big reason why they were usefull.
I would imagine the Devs want players to stop playing Patch/Daken so much. They have to be some of the most common 3* used because they can come out of a match damage free. I also think they feel Loki's and Hood's AP steals a too powerful and instead of nerfing those abilities have made them the most squishy characters in the game.
Overall a lot more characters will become playable again, but fights will take a lot longer so I don't know what will be better for the game.

**** charecters with **** skills won't all of a sudden become good because they have more health and the charecters that people like playing with get essentially a health nerf.

i'm not rushing out to level up my mohawk becuase she has more HP...lol

Unknown

The health change is just an excuse to nerf indirectly characters like Hood, Loki, Daken, even Professor X although invisibility makes for it if you max him

500 health increases are a joke, same as the Elektra change that makes no relevant changes

Just excuses to cover the real nerf behind it

Or you can believe it and try to get 1k in pvp with Mohawk, Beast and Quicksilver

Unknown

The thing is, having a tank character very rarely made a decision who you use on your team. Characters that are considered good must have good move set and at least medium health or godly skills if wearing paper (Hood, Loki), but anyone with weak skills but high health wasn't taken. 3* Thor is used mainly because of his devastating, if slow, powers, if he had 8k he would still be used just as much. Colosus was true tank and is never used, even if you buffed his health that wouldn't be enough, that man require some rework. Hulk is true tank and only reason you bring him is when you want to game his anger, as both red and green skills are godawful. Sentry is still trash, Grocket is still as good, She Hulk may become playable just because of rework so she have 2 good skills instead of just one.

If anything, they need to do second pass on characters that were intended to be tanky and were left underpowered due to that - Colosus, Hulk, Ragnarok, even Sentry (just get rid of self damage at very least so he is slow combo based sweeper like Thor, just with a bit of extra damage for being harder to setup than mr Mjolnir). Adding extra health for them just wouldn't change anything.

FaustianDeal

The 0% increases are tragic, but I'm not going to dwell on Hood and Loki getting left behind...

The one I am possibly most surprised by is Human Torch. +36%? That guy is supposed to be a glass cannon.. not gorilla glass. His cheap/strong powers are supposed to be balanced by his relatively small health pool. Hardly seems to fit that definition anymore when he has more base health than the true-healers?

Meto5000

I posted a detailed breakdown the other day (with an excel spreadsheet to play around with) here

Unknown

Meto5000 wrote:

I posted a detailed breakdown the other day (with an excel spreadsheet to play around with) here

Rats, you beat me to it. Well anyway, here's my spreadsheet done up quick, based on the OP, for easy browsing and sorting.

All MPQ characters, and sortable by each of the following columns:

Character / % Change / Old Health / Max Health / Amount changed

Color coding:
GREEN double buff
NORMAL health buff
LIGHT RED health nerf
DARK RED double nerf (no health increase, and either powers dependent on health regen, or powers that've been nerfed now or in the past)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

wymtime

jobob wrote:

wymtime wrote:

First thanks for the graph showing total increase and I will say I agree with you. I will also look at this from the Devs point of view. They have a lot of characters that because of there low health are just not used. HT, Storm, GSBW, and others true healers that heal faster out of the game, but are not used much because they can be killed with one shot aka Deadpool, spiderman(ok more issues with him), Blade. The Devs want these characters to be more playable in the game and instead of redesigning ALL of them they get a health buff so they can last longer in fights.
To your point this makes the Tanks much less tanky. Anyone who is slow with a big punch can still be usefull, but will only be able to one shot in game true healers Patch, Daken and the 2 best offensive support characters in the game Hood and Loki(notice neither of the, got health buffs). I think this hurts R&G, Hulk, and Thor the most as their Health was being able to withstand a big hit was a big reason why they were usefull.
I would imagine the Devs want players to stop playing Patch/Daken so much. They have to be some of the most common 3* used because they can come out of a match damage free. I also think they feel Loki's and Hood's AP steals a too powerful and instead of nerfing those abilities have made them the most squishy characters in the game.
Overall a lot more characters will become playable again, but fights will take a lot longer so I don't know what will be better for the game.

I understand and agree with all that. I just fail to see how increasing the high health characters- whose health was a feature of the character as much as any active/passive power- would somehow make the damage dealers less playable.

Even if you don't give them a 36% buff like a lot of the 3*s... even 20% would be substantial and give me reason to think about taking a 12k health tank in over a 9k damage dealer. But 10k vs 9k? What's the point?

You are correct, why bring a slow 10k health character when you can bring a 9k health character that deals much more damage fairly quickly

snlf25

OnesOwnGrief wrote:

Luke Cage is the only one true tank. Others are just durable. Praise him.

Shhhh. They'll come for him next!

I look at these increases and God I despise this. Isn't facing buffed Bullseye bad enough already without him getting a boost? I look at this list and this game just got so much worse. Try and do anything now without running out of health packs. Even 2* wolvie is going to be so much more of a **** to kill before he gets off his red or matches yellow. Elektra is so much more of a hemorrhoid than she was with her stupid invisi-black shields and her ballet of death. Upping her health 30%? ouch. It's going to be near impossible to avoid major damage in any pvp match or non-trivial PvE node. Also like a previous guy said, some extra HP is Never going to make me want to use Mohawk. If you want us to like her so much switch her power set with grey suit and buff it up a little. Hot Damn, instant classic - must have on any roster.

Unknown

snlf25 wrote:

OnesOwnGrief wrote:

Luke Cage is the only one true tank. Others are just durable. Praise him.

Shhhh. They'll come for him next!

I look at these increases and God I despise this. Isn't facing buffed Bullseye bad enough already without him getting a boost? I look at this list and this game just got so much worse. Try and do anything now without running out of health packs. Even 2* wolvie is going to be so much more of a **** to kill before he gets off his red or matches yellow. Elektra is so much more of a hemorrhoid than she was with her stupid invisi-black shields and her ballet of death. Upping her health 30%? ouch. It's going to be near impossible to avoid major damage in any pvp match or non-trivial PvE node. Also like a previous guy said, some extra HP is Never going to make me want to use Mohawk. If you want us to like her so much switch her power set with grey suit and buff it up a little. Hot Damn, instant classic - must have on any roster.

Storm actually was pretty solid before Mohawk release. Right now she's kind of useless because she overlaps too much with other characters. There are much better green and yellow powers out there. Her saving grace originally was that she could shatter env tiles and use green to grab ap. She was always kind of weak otherwise, but those powers made her worth it in combination with other characters. There might be a few characters she plays okay with from a rainbow perspective, but fundamentally, her yellow power was completely neutered when they switched it from red, and more importantly, increased the cost from what it used to be.

snlf25

theHappyDance wrote:

Storm actually was pretty solid before Mohawk release. Right now she's kind of useless because she overlaps too much with other characters. There are much better green and yellow powers out there. Her saving grace originally was that she could shatter env tiles and use green to grab ap. She was always kind of weak otherwise, but those powers made her worth it in combination with other characters. There might be a few characters she plays okay with from a rainbow perspective, but fundamentally, her yellow power was completely neutered when they switched it from red, and more importantly, increased the cost from what it used to be.

I never had enough of her covers back in the environmental tiles days so I don't really remember her move set when she had red. Now the only time I use her is when she's featured because like you said so many others use her colors better. Not a bad board shaker on yellow and not a horrible black so long as the enemy doesn't have a shaker but her two star is so much better. Raging Tempest is an absolute god send if your team is about roached when she gets hit. I have wiped entire teams with it numerous times to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. Her blue is a masterpiece with a five turn stun and AOE but the damage aint the best in post transition play. Grey suit should be the 3* move set.