Would D3 make these changes if...

Punisher5784

If we didn't discuss on the forums so much about tips and tricks to the game? I have been playing for nearly a year but I only recently started to use the forums for advice. I think the advice may actually hurt the game. If we didn't freely tell everyone about ways to make the game 'easier' then maybe we wouldn't see so many frequent changes.

Some examples:
XForce: Everytime a new character is released, all I ever hear players say is "not as good as XForce," "Could be good but I have XForce," "Black is decent but XForce is better," etc. It makes it difficult for the developers to release new characters when you keep comparing them to XForce so now there are potentially many characters better than him.

MNMag & CStorm: I don't know why but I never thought about using Mags to fuel Storm for Wind Storm. I always used MNMag to fuel Hawkeye's Speedshot. When there are crazy combos like this, maybe we are better off keeping them to ourselves rather then telling everyone because they ended up being the go-to team.

Winfinite: Same as above. I did not have a usable Mystique and I am not even sure I would have ever paired them together.

Hood as top tier character: When I first started playing I always saved Hood for last because I thought he was useless, even though I would always lose to whatever team he was on but I didn't realize it's because he was killing me behind the scenes! This forum showed me which characters were awesome when I was relying on 2* Wolv to do everything. Although it's great for us to talk about how awesome a character is, now characters like Hood, OBW and Loki have the lowest health in the game. Let's not forget all the pre-release nerfs to Professor X and Quicksilver because everyone was talking about how 'broken' they are.

There are many other examples such as healing before the end of the match (pre-healing nerf), shield hopping, and perma-stun with Spiderman. The point of this topic is that maybe we're better off keeping this to ourselves and discussing this with our alliance in a private Facebook group. Let the developers figure out all these tricks on their own. Maybe they would have more time to create new content instead of trying to figuring out ways to nerf/change the way we play based on our discussions.

babinro

I agree that changes are likely made on forums combined with in game data (which they'd probably not have focused on if not for the forum prompting).

I disagree completely with the idea of keeping OP combo's 'secret' in order to exploit them for maximum gain as long as possible. Part of the reason some people complain about balance is because they WANT a more balanced game.

Maybe you found the Patchneto near infinite combo to be the most fun thing that's ever happened to this game. Others might feel it trivialized the game and put us into 'god-mode' sucking all the fun out of the experience.

XF was a casebook example of being a jack of all trades character who excels at just about everything. There's a reason many of us used him for LR's, PvE, PvP and struggled the most in game when he was denied use in PvE/Gauntlet. The character was simply amazing in every situation especially when teamed with someone to exploit SS's AP gain.

I'll grant you that XF has been far and away the most actively FUN character that got nerfed but he still wasn't healthy for the game. Heck, I'm not even sure someone with that much damage, board shake and true healing POST-NERF will still be good for the game. Not saying his post nerf is going to be OP but rather that he seems to fill too many demands where many other characters are more specialized.

Anyways this is getting off-topic.

Bottom Line: Many people complain to create a better experience...not just to 'hurt' the vets out of spite. Balance changes bring out the negativity on the forums but that doesn't mean we all hate the changes.

Punisher5784

There wouldn't be anything to complain about if we didn't educate others on how to exploit the game. I remember a time when we found things on our own without relying to the internet for ways around things to make them easier. Generally, what people don't know, don't hurt them.

Unknown

Punisher5784 wrote:

There wouldn't be anything to complain about if we didn't educate others on how to exploit the game. I remember a time when we found things on our own without relying to the internet for ways around things to make them easier. Generally, what people don't know, don't hurt them.

I remember when home computers didn't exist. Damn, I'm old...

simonsez

Punisher5784 wrote:

The point of this topic is that maybe we're better off keeping this to ourselves

Good luck getting Phantron on board with that...

Unknown

I don't think it would change much as far as nerfing goes. They apparently rely on their metrics for 90% of their decisions and while they don't put much thought into character interaction beforehand, the player base can pretty easily find the best combos. Eventually they'd start to notice xforce and goddess dominating the top end, or that this combo or that one is facing 395 enemies without a scratch at a very high rate. I think the most difference is made when it comes to prerelease info and the forums find those combos before they have a chance to see it in the wild

rednailz

babinro wrote:

I agree that changes are likely made on forums combined with in game data (which they'd probably not have focused on if not for the forum prompting).

I disagree completely with the idea of keeping OP combo's 'secret' in order to exploit them for maximum gain as long as possible. Part of the reason some people complain about balance is because they WANT a more balanced game.

Maybe you found the Patchneto near infinite combo to be the most fun thing that's ever happened to this game. Others might feel it trivialized the game and put us into 'god-mode' sucking all the fun out of the experience.

XF was a casebook example of being a jack of all trades character who excels at just about everything. There's a reason many of us used him for LR's, PvE, PvP and struggled the most in game when he was denied use in PvE/Gauntlet. The character was simply amazing in every situation especially when teamed with someone to exploit SS's AP gain.

I'll grant you that XF has been far and away the most actively FUN character that got nerfed but he still wasn't healthy for the game. Heck, I'm not even sure someone with that much damage, board shake and true healing POST-NERF will still be good for the game. Not saying his post nerf is going to be OP but rather that he seems to fill too many demands where many other characters are more specialized.

Anyways this is getting off-topic.

Bottom Line: Many people complain to create a better experience...not just to 'hurt' the vets out of spite. Balance changes bring out the negativity on the forums but that doesn't mean we all hate the changes.

Faulty comparison. Patchnedo killed in PvP and PvE while Winfinite was used almost exclusively in PvE for overscalled nodes. So, there was no imbalance or complaints about winfitine from people complaining for balance, just was stormnedo was never compained about in PvP becuase both combos are extremely weak on D, and slow and easy to beat, which is why I'm assuming D3 let it slide for so long.

The only reason to change winfinite was to "balance" PvE (ie take away a useful tool for nodes with 270 - 320 level Ares and friends)

Phaserhawk

Just like Sentry, XF and Thor were warping the enviornments. The only way to fix it was to either power creep everyone to where the game just becomes boring, or you have to bring the outliers back in. It's okay if characters are "overpowered' in a niche setting. Take Daken/Falcon. In a 3x goon match they are overpowered, (sorta) to where you can just dominate with taking no damage, but if you try to bring that duo against non-goons they are not.

But when a character crosses all situations in all enviornments and it's either bring this guy or lose, there is a problem. Is X-Force getting overnerfed? If he is I have full faith that D3 will add some damage to green or maybe let Surgical Strike destroy a teams AP again.

People don't like change when the change causes them to be "worse off". If this was X-Force after he was redone everyone would be loving it, but we went from famine to feast to just a good meal and we are upset. X-Force is fine, he's still a board destroying true healing machine, he's just not unstoppable.

rednailz

Phaserhawk wrote:

Just like Sentry, XF and Thor were warping the enviornments. The only way to fix it was to either power creep everyone to where the game just becomes boring, or you have to bring the outliers back in. It's okay if characters are "overpowered' in a niche setting. Take Daken/Falcon. In a 3x goon match they are overpowered, (sorta) to where you can just dominate with taking no damage, but if you try to bring that duo against non-goons they are not.

But when a character crosses all situations in all enviornments and it's either bring this guy or lose, there is a problem. Is X-Force getting overnerfed? If he is I have full faith that D3 will add some damage to green or maybe let Surgical Strike destroy a teams AP again.

People don't like change when the change causes them to be "worse off". If this was X-Force after he was redone everyone would be loving it, but we went from famine to feast to just a good meal and we are upset. X-Force is fine, he's still a board destroying true healing machine, he's just not unstoppable.

I disagree, IMO his green is weak for a 4*, but I'll wait for the resulting cascades before cementing my opinion

bobby_2613

Phaserhawk wrote:

But when a character crosses all situations in all enviornments and it's either bring this guy or lose, there is a problem. Is X-Force getting overnerfed? If he is I have full faith that D3 will add some damage to green or maybe let Surgical Strike destroy a teams AP again.

This is part of the problem. They (whoever they are) constantly changing things. As of now, people will change his build cause now he seems better 3/5/5 or 4/5/4. What if they rechange it? Some will still complain. (If I would have known...) I know changes are unavoidable but maybe one solution might be letting people rebuild the character (when fully covered) no charge for a limited time. So if you paid for the best build you wouldn't have loose it all. The only options now is selling it, or grind (pay) again to have the new best build. I would like that option. (This should be for every change not just XF)


*Edited who's changing things for those who wouldn't understand otherwise.

DaveR4470

No they wouldn't, because D3 doesn't design or code the game. They just support the server and commerce infrastructure.

Demiurge designs and codes the game.

/pet peeve

Unknown

From what I've seen, Demiurge is very numbers driven. If people are using a particular character more than the rest, they notice and nerf accordingly. Even if we didn't post about Mystique - MNMags on the forums, word would spread through Line and other forums. I think I was the first to post about this combo here, so do feel minor regret, but I'm sure other people found it before I did.

Checking back through the Mystique thread, the possibility was there as soon as they posted her abilities. viewtopic.php?p=245086#p245086
Confirmation of combo Nov 11: viewtopic.php?p=248380#p248380

It took about a month and a half for most of the vets to realize the combo, and then another month before it was widespread.

Unknown

The whole point of this community is to share thoughts and ideas about the game. That said...I've always been a proponent of not talking about things out in the open here. I'm all about sending PMs to members and using outside forms of communication to coordinate things.

D3 may be able to get inklings about certain things from their "numbers" and "data"...but i really believe that it is our in depth discussion of these things in the open that really tips them off.

Remember, the do not play their own game. If we don't tell on ourselves...they don't know.

easy...marc

Phaserhawk

rednailz wrote:

Phaserhawk wrote:

Just like Sentry, XF and Thor were warping the enviornments. The only way to fix it was to either power creep everyone to where the game just becomes boring, or you have to bring the outliers back in. It's okay if characters are "overpowered' in a niche setting. Take Daken/Falcon. In a 3x goon match they are overpowered, (sorta) to where you can just dominate with taking no damage, but if you try to bring that duo against non-goons they are not.

But when a character crosses all situations in all enviornments and it's either bring this guy or lose, there is a problem. Is X-Force getting overnerfed? If he is I have full faith that D3 will add some damage to green or maybe let Surgical Strike destroy a teams AP again.

People don't like change when the change causes them to be "worse off". If this was X-Force after he was redone everyone would be loving it, but we went from famine to feast to just a good meal and we are upset. X-Force is fine, he's still a board destroying true healing machine, he's just not unstoppable.

I disagree, IMO his green is weak for a 4*, but I'll wait for the resulting cascades before cementing my opinion

Well considering the only thing close to his skill in terms of power, color, and function is Black Widow's Sniper Rifle which for 19 AP destroys a good chunk of the board and does about 4.5K AoE. hmm so for less AP I can at least hit 2 targets for 16 AP and if I SS into green I can get a third for free. And we all know dowing the biggest threat early is better than dowing everyone late.

It was too strong however in current form it should cost 7AP.