Beast vs. Xforce

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Raffoon
Raffoon Posts: 884
edited April 2015 in MPQ General Discussion
greentile.png Animal Inside - Cost: 9 Green AP - NEW
Jumping and slashing as he moves through enemies, Hank can barely control his animal side. Deals 192 to all enemies. If there’s a friendly Blue Special tile on the board, Beast smashes up his lab destroying 3 random basic tiles, each dealing 33 to all enemies, but not generating AP.
Upgrades:
2. Deals 219 to all enemies.
3. If there is a friendly Blue Special tile on the board, destroys 6 tiles.
4. Deals 246 to all enemies.
5. If there is a friendly Blue Special tile on the board, destroys 12 tiles.
MAX LV 5: Deals 780 to all enemies, destroys 12 tiles dealing 104 damage per tile.

greentile.png X-Force - Cost: 8 Green AP - NEW
Wolverine unleashes his berserker rage, cutting with his adamantium claws. Deals 137 damage and destroys 5 tiles in a 3x3 X-Shaped pattern. Does not generate AP.
Upgrades:
2. Deals 183 damage.
3. Destroys 9 tiles in a 5x5 X-Shaped pattern.
4. Deals 548 damage.
5. Deals 685 damage and destroys 15 tiles in 3 3x3 X-Shaped patterns
MAX LV 5: Deals 1360 damage and destroys 15 tiles in 3 3x3 X-Shaped patterns


Ummmmmmmm..... Yeah, that's totally 160% of the damage. Good job, Devs

Comments

  • And now let us see Beast fully heal himself for 9 yellow and then whack someone for 7000-odd damage for his blue.


    Oh wait, he doesn't. He also seems to have a slight hitpoint deficiency.


    X-force as a whole is easily 160% of Beasts powerlevel. One single ability does not a character make. But people do really try to cherrypick numbers to suit their arguments.
  • Maybe not, but XF's green went from arguably his best power to arguably his worst power, and clearly lost 33% of it's damage. 33% is too big a change to ANY power, at any time.

    Not to mention the true heal penalty now puts XF at SIXTH from the top in HP. He needs to bring the noise, and now XF is more like a whisper.
  • That is absolutely blatantly untrue and incredibly silly as a statement.

    With that reasoning, Spiderman should have trivialised content far longer than he did. Likewise for Magneto, and shudder to think of it, Ragnarok.

    Nerfing any of those with less than 33% at the time of their changes would have been akin to pissing on an open fire. Likewise, X-force trivialises content. Do I think he is hurt a bit much. Perhaps. Time will tell, but I wager he will still be in quite a few teams.

    And I do not even have a starting clue what you mean by the "true heal penalty". That he only has 11k hitpoints? Then colour me unimpressed by that as an argument, since I think that I have used X-force to sponge more than buffed Hulk and buffed Thor ever could in matches. If people hadn't focused so hard on his green, they would long ago have noticed that the yellow is actually a very potent power as well.
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,479 Chairperson of the Boards
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    I actually like Kamala Khan and thought that she was a lot of fun to play. However, I never thought I would use her because of the green color conflict. These changes really alter game dynamics and allow for some fun new synergies.

    I feel really bad for the people that don't know how to adapt and adjust their strategies to fit the new dynamics.

    I remember when lots of people thought Gypsy Danger was a blatant out and out cheater because he could score at will blah blah blah. Now everyone shield hops and uses out of game coordination. I for one would say that Gypsy and his team mates were just smarter than everyone else and recognized a legitimate strategy that no one else including developers for saw.

    It makes me sad to see how narrow minded the forum players are and not recognize that this is a great opportunity to change up the dynamics of the game and improve their personal and alliance rankings.

    I for one will focus my energies on helping my team mates grow and adjust to the new dynamics. I'm sure that just like in the last nerf, alliances rankings will shuffle some alliances will merge and fold and we will slide up another tier in the season standings.
  • Pylgrim
    Pylgrim Posts: 2,303 Chairperson of the Boards
    Options
    Er, do you realise that X-Force deals normal damage for each tile destroyed, right? If you average tile damage across his colour strengths, you'll find out that with 15 tiles destroyed he'll be dealing a total of 2k damage as well, costing 1 less AP and destroying 3 more tiles which is an increase in board shake. So in green ability alone X-Force is actually (slightly) better. Now, his yellow is infinitely better than Beast's yellow (True healing!), and his black is hilariously more powerful than Beast's blue, even after the nerf of the first and the buff of the latter.
  • Jester Day wrote:
    That is absolutely blatantly untrue and incredibly silly as a statement.

    With that reasoning, Spiderman should have trivialised content far longer than he did. Likewise for Magneto, and shudder to think of it, Ragnarok.

    Nerfing any of those with less than 33% at the time of their changes would have been akin to pissing on an open fire. Likewise, X-force trivialises content. Do I think he is hurt a bit much. Perhaps. Time will tell, but I wager he will still be in quite a few teams.

    And I do not even have a starting clue what you mean by the "true heal penalty". That he only has 11k hitpoints? Then colour me unimpressed by that as an argument, since I think that I have used X-force to sponge more than buffed Hulk and buffed Thor ever could in matches. If people hadn't focused so hard on his green, they would long ago have noticed that the yellow is actually a very potent power as well.

    Spiderman and Magneto both had infinte broken turn combos going on. XF does not have that. He only had the misfortune of winning the title of "Best".

    Magneto didn't even lose that much in terms of protect.png to AP ratio, he only lost the unintended consequence of a blue power generating blue tiles for that cost.

    How exactly is playing the game to win trivializing content? That is the content. PvP ranking is part of that content. To rank well you use guys that play fast. XF plays the fastest. Therefore to rank well you use XF. That didn't make him "broken", just "good".

    Also, while Beast may be a harsh comparison, he is totally basically Groot now. Same HP, same green damage, same 11 cost high damage output power, same yellow true healing board shake (although XF does edge Groot on damage here). 4*s deserve to be more than pretty 3*s. 60% more, the dev's even said so. Given Groot is a tank class and XF is now a sub striker class with true heal, the least they could do is increase his post nerf green's damage by 60%, which would be more like a 900 point reduction from current so ~3,600 not ~2,000 and a 20% decrease, not a 44% one (from ~4500).
  • Pylgrim
    Pylgrim Posts: 2,303 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Lerysh wrote:
    Jester Day wrote:
    That is absolutely blatantly untrue and incredibly silly as a statement.

    With that reasoning, Spiderman should have trivialised content far longer than he did. Likewise for Magneto, and shudder to think of it, Ragnarok.

    Nerfing any of those with less than 33% at the time of their changes would have been akin to pissing on an open fire. Likewise, X-force trivialises content. Do I think he is hurt a bit much. Perhaps. Time will tell, but I wager he will still be in quite a few teams.

    And I do not even have a starting clue what you mean by the "true heal penalty". That he only has 11k hitpoints? Then colour me unimpressed by that as an argument, since I think that I have used X-force to sponge more than buffed Hulk and buffed Thor ever could in matches. If people hadn't focused so hard on his green, they would long ago have noticed that the yellow is actually a very potent power as well.

    Spiderman and Magneto both had infinte broken turn combos going on. XF does not have that. He only had the misfortune of winning the title of "Best".

    How exactly is playing the game to win trivializing content? That is the content. PvP ranking is part of that content. To rank well you use guys that play fast. XF plays the fastest. Therefore to rank well you use XF. That didn't make him "broken", just "good".

    Also, while Beast may be a harsh comparison, he is totally basically Groot now. Same HP, same green damage, same 11 cost high damage output power, same yellow true healing board shake (although XF does edge Groot on damage here). 4*s deserve to be more than pretty 3*s. 60% more, the dev's even said so. Given Groot is a tank class and XF is now a sub striker class with true heal, the least they could do is increase his post nerf green's damage by 60%, which would be more like a 900 point reduction from current so ~3,600 not ~2,000 and a 20% decrease, not a 44% one (from ~4500).

    Agreed that Grocket is a better comparison that Beast, but X-Force still comes quite ahead. Grocket's green is only comparable X-Force at 5 covers (which most people avoid) and even then, it deals a bit more damage than X-Force but with much less board shake and costing 2 more. If you count green at 5 covers, then yellow will have to be 3. At 3 covers, X-Force regenerates more life (I'm ignoring the secondary effects of both abilities as they are too different to be compared). Lastly, to deal the same damage as the new Surgical Strike with an average of 9 tiles destroyed, I Got A Plan needs two turns of his countdown surviving, then around 6 matches, in which all the strike tiles must survive. It's not even close, and IGAP is an excellent ability!
  • Phumade wrote:
    I actually like Kamala Khan and thought that she was a lot of fun to play. However, I never thought I would use her because of the green color conflict. These changes really alter game dynamics and allow for some fun new synergies.

    I feel really bad for the people that don't know how to adapt and adjust their strategies to fit the new dynamics.

    I remember when lots of people thought Gypsy Danger was a blatant out and out cheater because he could score at will blah blah blah. Now everyone shield hops and uses out of game coordination. I for one would say that Gypsy and his team mates were just smarter than everyone else and recognized a legitimate strategy that no one else including developers for saw.

    It makes me sad to see how narrow minded the forum players are and not recognize that this is a great opportunity to change up the dynamics of the game and improve their personal and alliance rankings.

    I for one will focus my energies on helping my team mates grow and adjust to the new dynamics. I'm sure that just like in the last nerf, alliances rankings will shuffle some alliances will merge and fold and we will slide up another tier in the season standings.

    If you think this is about adapting and adjusting strategies to fit new dynamics then I have some prime land in jersey to sell you.
  • Pylgrim wrote:
    Agreed that Grocket is a better comparison that Beast, but X-Force still comes quite ahead. Grocket's green is only comparable X-Force at 5 covers (which most people avoid) and even then, it deals a bit more damage than X-Force but with much less board shake and costing 2 more. If you count green at 5 covers, then yellow will have to be 3. At 3 covers, X-Force regenerates more life (I'm ignoring the secondary effects of both abilities as they are too different to be compared). Lastly, to deal the same damage as the new Surgical Strike with an average of 9 tiles destroyed, I Got A Plan needs two turns of his countdown surviving, then around 6 matches, in which all the strike tiles must survive. It's not even close, and IGAP is an excellent ability!

    The IGAP CD almost always usually goes off, since it's placed. And it's not 6 turns, it's 6 uses. You can get 6 cheap uses out of say.. Cage or Iron Fist, and from mini cascades.

    Also the primary reason for not having Grocket's Green at 5 was "XF's green is better" and that's not the case anymore. I've always had Grocket's green at 5, because that's what was best for Grocket as a stand alone character.

    Does XF shake the board more? Possibly. Does that make him 60% better? No. Does he even heal 60% more? No. I'll give you that SS is better than IGAP because of the speed. But that's not enough. And all these comparisons make XF a 3* Tank character, not a 4* brawler character.

    A power that does ~250 damage per AP on a 4* character is just ludicrous on it's face. It's a terrible terrible power now.
  • Pylgrim
    Pylgrim Posts: 2,303 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Lerysh wrote:
    Pylgrim wrote:
    Agreed that Grocket is a better comparison that Beast, but X-Force still comes quite ahead. Grocket's green is only comparable X-Force at 5 covers (which most people avoid) and even then, it deals a bit more damage than X-Force but with much less board shake and costing 2 more. If you count green at 5 covers, then yellow will have to be 3. At 3 covers, X-Force regenerates more life (I'm ignoring the secondary effects of both abilities as they are too different to be compared). Lastly, to deal the same damage as the new Surgical Strike with an average of 9 tiles destroyed, I Got A Plan needs two turns of his countdown surviving, then around 6 matches, in which all the strike tiles must survive. It's not even close, and IGAP is an excellent ability!

    The IGAP CD almost always usually goes off, since it's placed. And it's not 6 turns, it's 6 uses. You can get 6 cheap uses out of say.. Cage or Iron Fist, and from mini cascades.

    Also the primary reason for not having Grocket's Green at 5 was "XF's green is better" and that's not the case anymore. I've always had Grocket's green at 5, because that's what was best for Grocket as a stand alone character.

    Does XF shake the board more? Possibly. Does that make him 60% better? No. Does he even heal 60% more? No. I'll give you that SS is better than IGAP because of the speed. But that's not enough. And all these comparisons make XF a 3* Tank character, not a 4* brawler character.

    A power that does ~250 damage per AP on a 4* character is just ludicrous on it's face. It's a terrible terrible power now.

    Completely agreed, X-Force (the power) is, while not terribly bad, not 4* worthy. However, as I stated in another thread, I believe that the extreme degree of nerf that that ability suffered was deliberate with the intent of making most other green abilities more playable, and as consequence, characters with a green skill more playable. (see your own comment on Grocket). I know that I'll be playing the new Xforce along with Kamala, tanking green for her but using Embiggened Bash instead of X-Force. I am very tempted to go 5 yellow covers on X-Force now as he basically recovers full health from an inch of his life, or deals 3.6k damage plus cascades if matched.
  • Pylgrim wrote:
    Lerysh wrote:
    Pylgrim wrote:
    Agreed that Grocket is a better comparison that Beast, but X-Force still comes quite ahead. Grocket's green is only comparable X-Force at 5 covers (which most people avoid) and even then, it deals a bit more damage than X-Force but with much less board shake and costing 2 more. If you count green at 5 covers, then yellow will have to be 3. At 3 covers, X-Force regenerates more life (I'm ignoring the secondary effects of both abilities as they are too different to be compared). Lastly, to deal the same damage as the new Surgical Strike with an average of 9 tiles destroyed, I Got A Plan needs two turns of his countdown surviving, then around 6 matches, in which all the strike tiles must survive. It's not even close, and IGAP is an excellent ability!

    The IGAP CD almost always usually goes off, since it's placed. And it's not 6 turns, it's 6 uses. You can get 6 cheap uses out of say.. Cage or Iron Fist, and from mini cascades.

    Also the primary reason for not having Grocket's Green at 5 was "XF's green is better" and that's not the case anymore. I've always had Grocket's green at 5, because that's what was best for Grocket as a stand alone character.

    Does XF shake the board more? Possibly. Does that make him 60% better? No. Does he even heal 60% more? No. I'll give you that SS is better than IGAP because of the speed. But that's not enough. And all these comparisons make XF a 3* Tank character, not a 4* brawler character.

    A power that does ~250 damage per AP on a 4* character is just ludicrous on it's face. It's a terrible terrible power now.

    Completely agreed, X-Force (the power) is, while not terribly bad, not 4* worthy. However, as I stated in another thread, I believe that the extreme degree of nerf that that ability suffered was deliberate with the intent of making most other green abilities more playable, and as consequence, characters with a green skill more playable. (see your own comment on Grocket). I know that I'll be playing the new Xforce along with Kamala, tanking green for her but using Embiggened Bash instead of X-Force. I am very tempted to go 5 yellow covers on X-Force now as he basically recovers full health from an inch of his life, or deals 3.6k damage plus cascades if matched.

    The nerf intent was to get you/us to respec and buy two Y, XF covers to do so. They want your 5000 HP and the $40 you'll spend to get it ($19.99 x 2).

    Secondary effect was to get you/us to buy ISO and HP to cover the new characters so we can find a new XF. I for one am not going to do it because it seems clear that once that happens, that new #1 character for PVP/PVE will be nerfed as well. I'm not sure I'll ever level up a 4* after this.

    And since it takes (correct me if I'm wrong with the numbers) about 173K iso to put a 3* at 166, and 254K iso to put a 4* at 222 for equal match damage numbers, why should I waste the time/money? Especially since maxing a 4* takes what, like 435K iso to put a 4* at 270 (who it seems will ultimately be nerfed), why should I max them when I can max level 2.5 3* characters for the same amount of iso?

    The system is broken and it appears it's not going to be fixed -- but that's just my opinion.
  • rednailz
    rednailz Posts: 559
    Options
    Phumade wrote:
    I actually like Kamala Khan and thought that she was a lot of fun to play. However, I never thought I would use her because of the green color conflict. These changes really alter game dynamics and allow for some fun new synergies.

    I feel really bad for the people that don't know how to adapt and adjust their strategies to fit the new dynamics.

    I remember when lots of people thought Gypsy Danger was a blatant out and out cheater because he could score at will blah blah blah. Now everyone shield hops and uses out of game coordination. I for one would say that Gypsy and his team mates were just smarter than everyone else and recognized a legitimate strategy that no one else including developers for saw.

    It makes me sad to see how narrow minded the forum players are and not recognize that this is a great opportunity to change up the dynamics of the game and improve their personal and alliance rankings.

    I for one will focus my energies on helping my team mates grow and adjust to the new dynamics. I'm sure that just like in the last nerf, alliances rankings will shuffle some alliances will merge and fold and we will slide up another tier in the season standings.
    That's a great attitude and is all well good and fine. Call me when you're at the 5th time deva screw up the game. My alliance groups are extremely supportive and always very high in the alliance rankings every event. We've lost at least 50% of members with this most recent change batch. After sucking it up enough times a lot of us who have played for a long time have had enough
  • rednailz
    rednailz Posts: 559
    Options
    Phumade wrote:
    I actually like Kamala Khan and thought that she was a lot of fun to play. However, I never thought I would use her because of the green color conflict. These changes really alter game dynamics and allow for some fun new synergies.

    I feel really bad for the people that don't know how to adapt and adjust their strategies to fit the new dynamics.

    I remember when lots of people thought Gypsy Danger was a blatant out and out cheater because he could score at will blah blah blah. Now everyone shield hops and uses out of game coordination. I for one would say that Gypsy and his team mates were just smarter than everyone else and recognized a legitimate strategy that no one else including developers for saw.

    It makes me sad to see how narrow minded the forum players are and not recognize that this is a great opportunity to change up the dynamics of the game and improve their personal and alliance rankings.

    I for one will focus my energies on helping my team mates grow and adjust to the new dynamics. I'm sure that just like in the last nerf, alliances rankings will shuffle some alliances will merge and fold and we will slide up another tier in the season standings.
    That's a great attitude and is all well good and fine. Call me when you're at the 5th time deva screw up the game. My alliance groups are extremely supportive and always very high in the alliance rankings every event. We've lost at least 50% of members with this most recent change batch. After sucking it up enough times a lot of us who have played for a long time have had enough
  • Pylgrim wrote:
    Lerysh wrote:
    Pylgrim wrote:
    Agreed that Grocket is a better comparison that Beast, but X-Force still comes quite ahead. Grocket's green is only comparable X-Force at 5 covers (which most people avoid) and even then, it deals a bit more damage than X-Force but with much less board shake and costing 2 more. If you count green at 5 covers, then yellow will have to be 3. At 3 covers, X-Force regenerates more life (I'm ignoring the secondary effects of both abilities as they are too different to be compared). Lastly, to deal the same damage as the new Surgical Strike with an average of 9 tiles destroyed, I Got A Plan needs two turns of his countdown surviving, then around 6 matches, in which all the strike tiles must survive. It's not even close, and IGAP is an excellent ability!

    The IGAP CD almost always usually goes off, since it's placed. And it's not 6 turns, it's 6 uses. You can get 6 cheap uses out of say.. Cage or Iron Fist, and from mini cascades.

    Also the primary reason for not having Grocket's Green at 5 was "XF's green is better" and that's not the case anymore. I've always had Grocket's green at 5, because that's what was best for Grocket as a stand alone character.

    Does XF shake the board more? Possibly. Does that make him 60% better? No. Does he even heal 60% more? No. I'll give you that SS is better than IGAP because of the speed. But that's not enough. And all these comparisons make XF a 3* Tank character, not a 4* brawler character.

    A power that does ~250 damage per AP on a 4* character is just ludicrous on it's face. It's a terrible terrible power now.

    Completely agreed, X-Force (the power) is, while not terribly bad, not 4* worthy. However, as I stated in another thread, I believe that the extreme degree of nerf that that ability suffered was deliberate with the intent of making most other green abilities more playable, and as consequence, characters with a green skill more playable. (see your own comment on Grocket). I know that I'll be playing the new Xforce along with Kamala, tanking green for her but using Embiggened Bash instead of X-Force. I am very tempted to go 5 yellow covers on X-Force now as he basically recovers full health from an inch of his life, or deals 3.6k damage plus cascades if matched.

    Yea I'm probably going 5 yellow also. I won't buy them with HP, but I'll get them when they come 'round.

    It was never XF's fault that his green was so good other characters paled in comparison. I subscribed to the "What if XF wasn't there" philosophy of building characters a while ago mainly because of the looming day of XF not being the top dog. Even in this micro-chasm of "best green" there is still always winner. It's probably KK now. Does that mean KK deserves a nerf? No, it means she is the best at bringing the green damage. Someone has to be, why not her? XF was the best at bringing the green damage. That's not an implayability problem like an infinite turn combo, that's just a character being labeled "best", which is apparently a death sentence round these parts when it shouldn't be.
  • Phumade wrote:
    I actually like Kamala Khan and thought that she was a lot of fun to play. However, I never thought I would use her because of the green color conflict. These changes really alter game dynamics and allow for some fun new synergies.

    I feel really bad for the people that don't know how to adapt and adjust their strategies to fit the new dynamics.

    I remember when lots of people thought Gypsy Danger was a blatant out and out cheater because he could score at will blah blah blah. Now everyone shield hops and uses out of game coordination. I for one would say that Gypsy and his team mates were just smarter than everyone else and recognized a legitimate strategy that no one else including developers for saw.

    It makes me sad to see how narrow minded the forum players are and not recognize that this is a great opportunity to change up the dynamics of the game and improve their personal and alliance rankings.

    I for one will focus my energies on helping my team mates grow and adjust to the new dynamics. I'm sure that just like in the last nerf, alliances rankings will shuffle some alliances will merge and fold and we will slide up another tier in the season standings.

    It's less about adapting strategy, which we will do eventually, even if those who just go with the meta wind up copying those who lead the charge, and more about the integrity of a character.

    Here is how I feel right now: Them, "Hey you know this character that's really hard to get but not very good, we made him awesome now!" Us, "Shut up and take my money!" Them, "Yea, and we are going to relase more awesome characters too, here's Nick Fury and Thor!" Us, "Cool! Shut up and take more money!" Them, "And here's Elektra, Star Lord, and Professor X" Us, "Meh... not as good as XF, plus we have XF/Thor already" Them, "Oh we see you like XF and Thor, well we can't have you playing the same characters all the time so we are gutting them" Us, "... ****?"

    And that is completely a problem of gut punching your customers with popular character nerfs rather than balance shifting buffs. There are more ways to affect strategy than "kill the top guy".