Simple idea to fix PVP

nyark

*Edit* By now most vets should realize that the MMR changes are pretty annoying, below is a simple solution to keep the game we are used to plus help out newer players. If you think this idea has some merit don't be shy to say so, if you have improvements/concerns let's hear those also.

Every PVP you can choose from 2 events with different levels of difficulty:
Season Event - which would basically be the current PVP setup you can use anybody - only this event counts towards the season
Normal Event ("Easy Mode", "Transitioners playground") - you can only use 3* or less characters, the rewards would be slightly less good like no 4* rewards

You could even add a 2* tier to help out the ultra-newbies if you are still worried about them

Everyone can play both events if they want. People just choose themselves which one they want to play so no complicated coding necessary.

Why this way? When you are at the bottom you should recognize that you are at the bottom, you should strive to improve yourself. You get beat down by a higher level team and think "boy, I want to level up so I can beat down others below me". With the MMR changes we are seeing in Smash Hit we don't get that, instead it's "I leveled up but I only see teams my same level" which due to scaling just means the matches are longer and harder. Give the newer players a safe place where they can grow with "Normal", but if they want the full experience they will also play "Season" as the overall gauge of how they are doing.

nyark

To elaborate, the main problem they are trying to fix with the MMR changes is it's too hard for lower level players. If you jam everyone into the same event it's obviously never going to be a level field for everyone.

Instead of complicating the issue by limiting who can or cannot see you based on individual roster wouldn't it be simpler to make an actual separate tier event where the level of the characters is limited? Then you can also re-scale the rewards to benefit that tier of players.

Low level rosters can still try their hand at the harder event to see how they are stacking up and get the lower progression rewards but won't feel so bad when they get beat down.

scottee

I've thought about this being the solution, but there's a big giant problem.

A bracket in the main group will have 500 players that all have 3* rosters. The current system with everyone grouped together has a significant portion of that 500 spread between 1*, 2*, 3*, and 4* rosters.

Rewards would have to be significantly changed to accommodate for this, and it would still be even worse of a grind fest, as it would be 100% 3* transitioners and up. Overall, this would be far more competitive than the current system.

Unknown

some discussion on the topic from...uh January

Unknown

I think the solution might be to borrow what some other games have, and have PVP have rotating requirements.

Some PVPs would only allow 1*s, and only offer 2* rewards. ("Beginner")
Some PVPs would only allow 2*s, and primarily offer 2* rewards, though the top (10?) would get older 3* covers. ("Intermediate")
Some PVPs would only allow 3*s, and have rewards along the lines of the current. ("Developed")
Some PVPs would only allow 4*, or 3*s and 4*s combined, and offer an expanded 4* selection (top 10?), plus 3*s. ("Champions")

At any given time, at least two of the above would be running, and probably one of each. Probably have a cycle where one of them is ending every day. People with developed rosters would have very little incentive to participate in the first two. People without would thus be able to expand their rosters without getting hit by people they can't retaliate against. People with developed rosters could then self-sort into, essentially, the "Developed" PVP or the "Champions division" PVP, and the 166s wouldn't have to worry about the 270s. But, more importantly, people could develop their rosters without it killing them in PVP. The transtition appears to be a very vulnerable point under the new system; I got flattened in Heavy Metal because of my 180s. But - under that arrangement - I could develop my 4*s without it locking me out of the third PVP unless and until I feel like jumping into the 4th one.

Also, some PVPs could offer combined options - 1*s and 2*s allowed, 2*s and 3*s allowed - or even have level requirements (anyone between 80th and 120th level allowed, for example) to cater to transitioning rosters. But make sure there's some eligible event for everybody at any given time, and I think PVP would be much improved.

Unknown

scottee wrote:

I've thought about this being the solution, but there's a big giant problem.

A bracket in the main group will have 500 players that all have 3* rosters. The current system with everyone grouped together has a significant portion of that 500 spread between 1*, 2*, 3*, and 4* rosters.

Rewards would have to be significantly changed to accommodate for this, and it would still be even worse of a grind fest, as it would be 100% 3* transitioners and up. Overall, this would be far more competitive than the current system.

Yes rewards in a harder tier would have to be better, both for placement and progression, the fact that it would be almost zero percent "casual" means it would be impossible to predict how difficult placement or how many points people might score beforehand. I think the rule is wave a juicy enough carrot in front of people and anyone who wants it will try for it.

The real thing this idea would blow up is season points and alliance points, people went crazy when shards were introduced because of the differences in points between the choices, adding tiers on top of that is going to be even more volatile.

All these things should be able to be worked out in time, which is why I still am 100% behind this idea and want a few test runs to try out and see if it could be the way of the future.

nyark

That's why I was thinking everyone can join every tier if they want.
If only the top tier event counts towards the season that still gives incentive for lower rosters to enter and try to get some points. Dangle some good progression rewards at the 300-400 level or wherever and they will still join to get those also.

Cryptobrancus wrote:

scottee wrote:

I've thought about this being the solution, but there's a big giant problem.

A bracket in the main group will have 500 players that all have 3* rosters. The current system with everyone grouped together has a significant portion of that 500 spread between 1*, 2*, 3*, and 4* rosters.

Rewards would have to be significantly changed to accommodate for this, and it would still be even worse of a grind fest, as it would be 100% 3* transitioners and up. Overall, this would be far more competitive than the current system.

Yes rewards in a harder tier would have to be better, both for placement and progression, the fact that it would be almost zero percent "casual" means it would be impossible to predict how difficult placement or how many points people might score beforehand. I think the rule is wave a juicy enough carrot in front of people and anyone who wants it will try for it.

The real thing this idea would blow up is season points and alliance points, people went crazy when shards were introduced because of the differences in points between the choices, adding tiers on top of that is going to be even more volatile.

All these things should be able to be worked out in time, which is why I still am 100% behind this idea and want a few test runs to try out and see if it could be the way of the future.

Unknown

nyark wrote:

That's why I was thinking everyone can join every tier if they want.
If only the top tier event counts towards the season that still gives incentive for lower rosters to enter and try to get some points. Dangle some good progression rewards at the 300-400 level or wherever and they will still join to get those also.

Or just have "normal events" with normal points and normal season scores and then have the upper tier be a whole new system, with a different type of points a separate "season"
Players and alliances can decide where they want to prioritize or dabble in both. but would be more opportunity for everyone.

rednailz

Cryptobrancus wrote:

nyark wrote:

That's why I was thinking everyone can join every tier if they want.
If only the top tier event counts towards the season that still gives incentive for lower rosters to enter and try to get some points. Dangle some good progression rewards at the 300-400 level or wherever and they will still join to get those also.

Or just have "normal events" with normal points and normal season scores and then have the upper tier be a whole new system, with a different type of points a separate "season"
Players and alliances can decide where they want to prioritize or dabble in both. but would be more opportunity for everyone.

I suggested a "cosmic mode" where it would be a higher tier, and although 4* wouldn't be needed, and certain players would still be boosted challenges would be a 4* tier challenges. Perhaps a PvP, perhaps a DDQ style. The idea stems from marvel, take any big marvel event for example, you get guys like cap or spidey putting on a space suit and having to battle it out against powers far beyond their usual day to day crime fighting capers.

So 3* would be more "out of their league" but could still be used but probably wouldn't get as far, and players could be boosted depending on event and to let everyone dable a little. It sorta fell in to and idea on how 5* would work, which is where "cosmic" came from. So you'd get much harder challenges, but much better rewards, and it wouldn't be "fair" and "even" becuase it would be designed for high level players with high rosters. It also may gvie them something fun to do, and taper down their dominance in regular events where they don't need the rewards anyway

nyark

Cryptobrancus wrote:

nyark wrote:

That's why I was thinking everyone can join every tier if they want.
If only the top tier event counts towards the season that still gives incentive for lower rosters to enter and try to get some points. Dangle some good progression rewards at the 300-400 level or wherever and they will still join to get those also.

Or just have "normal events" with normal points and normal season scores and then have the upper tier be a whole new system, with a different type of points a separate "season"
Players and alliances can decide where they want to prioritize or dabble in both. but would be more opportunity for everyone.

That would be nice but maybe starting to get too complicated to be a "simple" fix. Yes, devs, I'm considering your feelings too!

To your point, any added tier would help with the complaints about how there's not enough ISO and HP to be earned so that's another bonus.

Unknown

I was going to start another thread about a complex overhaul to PVP but here is a more fleshed out suggestion.

Have two modes for each event, yes every PVP. Players can enter and play in both. Maybe don't let people offset slices to play one before the other starts or weirdness like that.

Normal Mode!
Things work like they do now, with a few changes.
No 4*s allowed, the wall is at 166 and will stay there in normal mode.
Keep placement/progression/alliance/season rewards mostly the same, tweak as desired.

Hard Mode!
Open to everyone! Seriously just don't complain when your OBW gets x-fisted
Prizes are better in hard mode. We have all the 4*s you want, and some 3*s for the wannabe hard mode players. No 2* progression rewards here (but plenty of moonstone tokens)
Hard mode has its own season! Normal mode points don't count here. Each player and alliance collects Hard Points and there is a separate season progression to go through, and this one is way better than puny normal.

Here is where we get fancy:

Link the points: If you get 1000 points in Hard Mode you get any Normal Mode progression rewards as well, as well as points towards normal season, alliance, and season progression. Points in normal do not count towards Hard Mode anything. If you want those rewards you actually have to play Hard Mode.

Link the rewards. 1st place in hard mode gets normal mode rewards in addition to hard mode rewards ~without needing to play normal mode at all~ (no you cannot double up by placing first in both, stop being greedy) If you prefer to do some of both you totally can but it will be more efficient for you to concentrate on the one you are most comfortable with and do as best you can, and then, like, farm seeds in the other for some iso. This allows the veterans to live in both worlds. They can be in the super competitive side for maximum rewards, or they can take it easy in normal and fight 3* vs 3* to earn 3*s.

The total rewards would need to be balanced, so a straight normal player might see less income, but can go try some hard to make that up. Hard mode players would ideally see higher rewards with the same level of effort as usual.

Unknown

This has been suggested, at least, 2.1 million times.

D3 obviously doesn't want to do it.

nyark

I'm sure similar ideas have been suggested many times, but I'm guessing a lot of them were more complicated or asking for too much. For example Cryptobrancus has good ideas, but as a developer I would probably balk at it for being difficult to implement.

My solution is super easy. You pick your time slice and both events pop-up, Normal event and Season event. They both feature the same character and reward the same character, they both end at the same time. Normal event no 4* characters can be used. People would probably play both somewhat, but at the end concentrate on the one that they want the top rewards for.

The only difficult part is deciding the reward structures. Again, for simplicity I would say leave Season event the same as current. "Normal" mode would scale down so top prize would be 3 3*covers, maybe 2-10 get 2 covers, 11-50 1 cover + hp, 51-100 1 cover, etc. Also the alliance reward on normal would just be iso + hp so you couldn't have lots of people raking in 6+ covers if they do play both. The progression rewards would likewise scale down. Actually season mode rewards probably would have to scale up a little because the rewards should be strictly better than normal at the same ranking level, but you get the idea.

FOADakaSquirrelBoy

Do it, D3!