Why you need a visible robust MMR system

esoxnepa
esoxnepa Posts: 291
edited April 2015 in MPQ General Discussion
The Puzzle Quest series has always had an RPG format that allows players to
grow in strength, learn new abilities, and find challenges. Marvel Puzzle
Quest has added in the ability for us to grow our favorite heroes, do battle
with them, and match ourselves with other players.

Danger: Basing MMR only on roster level eliminates the feeling of growth that is
critical to the success of Puzzle Quest games. This eliminates a key aspect
of what keeps your player-base vested in the game.


Problem: Basing MMR only on roster level, greatly reduces the variety
PvP (by needing your top team at all times) and eliminates personal performance
variability for stronger and weaker players,

Solution: A more robust, simplified, public, matchmaking rating is needed.

Justification: By making each players MMR public, and allowing players
to know how it changes, encourages players to face peer, or higher ranking
players. This adds to the level of accomplishment and provides a method of
comparing success and generating rivalry.

Implementation:

MMR will be used for performance and ranking within each season. It will reset at the start of each new season.

MMR Display: Each player's MMR should be displayed along with their name
in all PvP nodes, all leader boards, and within the alliance screen.

Range for MMR: MMR should range similar to PvP progression scores, where the MMR
for a 2 star player would begin at the minimum level a 2* roster is expected to
attain in PvP, and range as high as an individual player's success allows.

MMR Table
Range
Expected Minimum Roster Strenght to attain
0-100
Beginning Players, no max 1* characters.
100-300
Max 1* players, with some non-max 2*.
300-400
Low level 2* plaer, 1*'s see some use.
400-575
Max 2* rosters and early 2-3* transition, expected to reach HP at 575.
575-700
3* and late transitioners.
700-800
Established 3* players
800-1000----3-4* trasition players
1000+
Highly Competative 3* and 4* players
Over 9000---Goku, Chuck Norris, The Legend

Calculating MMR: This form of MMR only looks at Offensive wins and offensive losses. Retreats have no impact.

MMR Initial base value is set at 75% of roster strength expected placement at the start
of each season. This value is a floor, and cannot be tanked below. So a max 2* player
would begin at (400 * 0.75 = 300). A roster with 5 or more 166's would be (700 * 0.75 = 525).
[Note how these values try to match the lowest PvP score you would expect a minimally competent
player of that level to achieve.]

MMR gains and losses, and impacts:
If (your MMR - Opponents) >= 200: (Attacking a significantly weaker player)
----0 MMR points gained on win. 0 MMR lost on Offensive loss.
----Your ISO reward is 50 ISO.
----Opponents defensive loss provides them 50 ISO. ("Training Bonus" to weaker player)
----Your point gain is normal.
----Opponents point loss is reduced by an additional 50%.

If (Your MMR - Opponents MMR) is from ( -299 to +199 ) (Equal Strength Player)
1 MMR point gained by player, 1 MMR lost for Offensive loss. (Retreats Do Not impact MMR)
Your ISO Reward is (0.75 * opposing teams levels, 211 for 3x94, 373 for 3x166, 607 for 3x270)
Points gained + 5. (to further encourage skipping weaker teams.)
Normal gain only after 575 event points.
Normal opponent point loss

If (Your MMR - Opponents MMR) <= -300 (Attacking significantly stronger player)
5 MMR points gained
Your ISO reward is (1*opposing team levels)
Points + 15 earned, Normal gain only after 700 event points.
Normal Opponent point loss.


Seed Teams: Everyone gets 3 seed teams. Offered teams will be based on MMR. Three seed team
maximum.
These higher value seed teams are to reward players for working to improve
their MMR, and eliminate the higher ranking players crushing the lower ranked players.
0-300: Current Seed Teams
301-500: 1 normal seed team, 2 (3x94 level) teams worth 50 points. To encourage leaving lower ranked
players alone.)
501-700: 2 (3x94) seed team worth 50 points, 1 (166x3) team worth 100 points.
701+: 1 (3x94) seed team worth 50 points, 2 (166x3) seed teams worth 100 points.

Node Matching: Teams offered will be based on current points, then MMR.
0-299 points: Point total only. (Seed team points should reduce high ranking players hitting low)
300-500: Point total, and Opponent MMR preferred (-349 to -100) and not less than 350 rating lower
than players. (Should be easier matches, about a star level below, mostly within retaliation strength.)
500-650: Point total and MMR -199 to +349, equal to higher MMR teams preferred.
601+: Open field of all players over 600.

End of Season MMR Reward: Titles, or some other vanity item, that will display all the next season
in PvP to your opponents.

Comments

  • Unknown
    Unknown
    esoxnepa wrote:
    End of Season MMR Reward: Titles, or some other vanity item, that will display all the next season
    in PvP to your opponents.

    I like a lot of this (especially the tanking floor idea) but this part seems quirky. Have to add in a badge or title system to the game. Plus you would wind up with "The Legend The Legend" at the end of the season for The Legend that is Jamie Madrox. icon_lol.gif
  • puppychow
    puppychow Posts: 1,453
    I hate to be the contrarian, but I think it's a BAD IDEA to offer a visible MMR system. Why? Because players will look at the components and figure out a way to exploit them to either get easier matchups, more points per match, or both. Don't underestimate the craftiness of players in exploiting the system. icon_mrgreen.gif
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    puppychow wrote:
    I hate to be the contrarian, but I think it's a BAD IDEA to offer a visible MMR system. Why? Because players will look at the components and figure out a way to exploit them to either get easier matchups, more points per match, or both. Don't underestimate the craftiness of players in exploiting the system. icon_mrgreen.gif

    Visible just means more people can figure it out earlier. Hidden systems are still exploited by those smart enough to figure them out.
  • Spoit
    Spoit Posts: 3,441 Chairperson of the Boards
    Lerysh wrote:
    puppychow wrote:
    I hate to be the contrarian, but I think it's a BAD IDEA to offer a visible MMR system. Why? Because players will look at the components and figure out a way to exploit them to either get easier matchups, more points per match, or both. Don't underestimate the craftiness of players in exploiting the system. icon_mrgreen.gif

    Visible just means more people can figure it out earlier. Hidden systems are still exploited by those smart enough to figure them out.
    Yeah, it's not like people game the systems when they're invisible anyway
  • renfox
    renfox Posts: 31 Just Dropped In
    I agree with game transparency. To have the mechanics out for everyone to know creates a two sided effect. The devs have to have a matching system that is fair. And the players would know clearly what decides if they win or lose. I don't mind losing as long as I know it was a fair and challenging matchup.

    Take a simple matchup system like Starcraft. You are thrown in the ring with a random player. if you win, you move up. You increase your tear by battles and tiers reached. Then you just climb matchups like in other sports like baseball, football, etc. People's ingenuity to win is going to be very diverse, but a simple winners ladder could meet the challenge of all involved. Then the payouts could be constructed to pay out by ladder, with more appropriate prizes at all levels. People at high ladders wouldn't be taking everything, only that high appropriate prize, and the lower ladders would have their own appropriate, dedicated prizes.

    It seems to me like the old MMR system was too linear, causing a bloodthirsty and unchallenging matchup. Switching to a tiered laddered system could force all the pressure on to players to move up and stay accountable to their winning streaks.

    Just an idea. But laying something like this out, and then making everyone aware of exactly what the challenge was, would be super fun and challenging. Let all our energies go into the game competition. I appreciate the Devs trying something, I just hope they communicate and take some of these good ideas to heart.
  • Spoit
    Spoit Posts: 3,441 Chairperson of the Boards
    As has been said for months, it's not the MMR and scaling, per se, that people have problems with. It's dealing with all that **** for the same exact rewards as the lower difficulty people. If the rewards were changed to be countermesurate to the difficulty, then there'd be a lot fewer problems with it
  • JamieMadrox
    JamieMadrox Posts: 1,798 Chairperson of the Boards
    Spoit wrote:
    As has been said for months, it's not the MMR and scaling, per se, that people have problems with. It's dealing with all that **** for the same exact rewards as the lower difficulty people. If the rewards were changed to be countermesurate to the difficulty, then there'd be a lot fewer problems with it
    A choose your own difficulty system where lower difficulties yield less powerful rewards would be a good solution to this. I think it's been mentioned in the past as an option.
  • racanrpa
    racanrpa Posts: 32
    Jamie Madrox wrote:
    Spoit wrote:
    As has been said for months, it's not the MMR and scaling, per se, that people have problems with. It's dealing with all that **** for the same exact rewards as the lower difficulty people. If the rewards were changed to be countermesurate to the difficulty, then there'd be a lot fewer problems with it
    A choose your own difficulty system where lower difficulties yield less powerful rewards would be a good solution to this. I think it's been mentioned in the past as an option.

    it s a good idea, but only if you limit the character to use in every tier (much as DDQ does) because if not, there will be another problem with this. Let s say, for example, you have a lower reward bracket and a regular one in a tournament giving lets say Hulk rewards (an "old" 3 star.png almost all veternas have ir maxed), with x force as 1000 and fury as 1st place (or any other 4 star.png who you don t need)... How much time will be until someone with a full 4 star.png roster start exploiting this "easy" bracket, so he can score high? if you got all 2 star.png fighting each other they will also score high, and if a 4 star.png player gets there he not only will have fights with enough points to score big, but he will probably won t get hit or even need to shield. Even if the fights are worth 10 points, why won t he still be doing them, since probably he won t get hit?
    And why a 4 star.png player will get in a lesser tournament? Easy. Season scores
  • NighteyesGrisu
    NighteyesGrisu Posts: 563 Critical Contributor
    Lerysh wrote:
    puppychow wrote:
    I hate to be the contrarian, but I think it's a BAD IDEA to offer a visible MMR system. Why? Because players will look at the components and figure out a way to exploit them to either get easier matchups, more points per match, or both. Don't underestimate the craftiness of players in exploiting the system. icon_mrgreen.gif

    Visible just means more people can figure it out earlier. Hidden systems are still exploited by those smart enough to figure them out.

    Exactly, Security through Obscurity isn't really security at all

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