Why these changes make me want to stop playing

iLL619

morph3us wrote:

I wonder if these changes are reflective of the pace of character release? Releasing a new character every two weeks can't possibly give them sufficient time to consider all of the possible combinations, nor overall game balance.

I think they need to slow down the pace of character release and make sure they're right, rather than rebalance post fact.

Agreed!!!!!!

Unknown

Lerysh wrote:

The Goddess nerf is TOTALLY different than all of those.

Sentry allowed you to win a game in 3 moves. Patchneto allowed you to win a game in 3 moves. Spiderman allowed you to win a game with 6 blue. Goddess took 19 AP to do 11,000 damage. That's not 3 moves.

Power Surge was too good. I get that. 3 turn stun and 5 charge tiles, fine, whatever. But now base damage on Smite needs to be upped. It's damage per AP always relied on charge tiles to be effective, and without those it's just a terrible way to spend AP on a super tank. Take the charge tiles down if you feel the speed offered by them is too much, but at least give us something to compensate Smite's damage with. And don't even get me started on the nerf to a skill no one uses reliably.

Fair point, but at a high level, people were bringing as many as 12 of that 19 in boosts and with Goddess having 16K in health you could take an extra couple of turns to develop it. With a good board, you could match blue turn 1, Surge and match red turn 2, Smite turn 3.

As for the nerfs, the primary focus was charged tile. Yellow damage is almost unchanged - just charged tile creation is lowered. Damage probably should have been increase here to compensate, high enough for people to consider adding a 4th or 5th cover in yellow. I also agree that they should have increased red damage, maybe closer to 5000 base plus 1000 per charged

Unknown

papa07 wrote:

Lerysh wrote:

The Goddess nerf is TOTALLY different than all of those.

Sentry allowed you to win a game in 3 moves. Patchneto allowed you to win a game in 3 moves. Spiderman allowed you to win a game with 6 blue. Goddess took 19 AP to do 11,000 damage. That's not 3 moves.

Power Surge was too good. I get that. 3 turn stun and 5 charge tiles, fine, whatever. But now base damage on Smite needs to be upped. It's damage per AP always relied on charge tiles to be effective, and without those it's just a terrible way to spend AP on a super tank. Take the charge tiles down if you feel the speed offered by them is too much, but at least give us something to compensate Smite's damage with. And don't even get me started on the nerf to a skill no one uses reliably.

Fair point, but at a high level, people were bringing as many as 12 of that 19 in boosts and with Goddess having 16K in health you could take an extra couple of turns to develop it. With a good board, you could match blue turn 1, Surge and match red turn 2, Smite turn 3.

As for the nerfs, the primary focus was charged tile. Yellow damage is almost unchanged - just charged tile creation is lowered. Damage probably should have been increase here to compensate, high enough for people to consider adding a 4th or 5th cover in yellow. I also agree that they should have increased red damage, maybe closer to 5000 base plus 1000 per charged

I'm sorry but you CANNOT balance heroes based on using +all AP boosts. Balancing based on spending HP EVERY match is ****. It's not a sustainable method for anoyone not spending a fortune... so you are saying she should be balanced around the game being COMPLETELY pay to win?

You could bring 6 AP (as long as you are happy spending ISO every match and stunting your progression in general) and it is NOT fast. It is slow.

Wonko33

they are just easing the "MPQ ---> having our lives back" transition

simonsez

papa07 wrote:

Don't think of it as losing your Goddess, think of all the loot you gained while using that broken character for all those events.

What loot? They've nerfed anything worth using

Unknown

simonsez wrote:

papa07 wrote:

Don't think of it as losing your Goddess, think of all the loot you gained while using that broken character for all those events.

What loot? They've nerfed anything worth using

IF is still very very usable. His change has gone quietly unrpotested due mostly to A) it being warrented and 2) they didn't change the . He's still top teir 3*. Hell, he may replace TGT in the PvP duo.

Unknown

bonfire01 wrote:

'm sorry but you CANNOT balance heroes based on using +all AP boosts. Balancing based on spending HP EVERY match is ****. It's not a sustainable method for anoyone not spending a fortune... so you are saying she should be balanced around the game being COMPLETELY pay to win?

You could bring 6 AP (as long as you are happy spending ISO every match and stunting your progression in general) and it is NOT fast. It is slow.

That's fine, but when the comparison is to Sentry winning in 3 moves, that was fully boosted, so it felt appropriate to level the comparison field. Sentry's 15 was not particularly fast either, but when you brought 9 of it with you, it became lightning.

And unless they are eliminating boosts, you cannot balance characters without considering boosts either.

simonsez

Lerysh wrote:

IF is still very very usable. His change has gone quietly unrpotested due mostly to A) it being warrented and 2) they didn't change the . He's still top teir 3*.

I'd say the more likely reason is that not many have a good working version of him already. The few people who have bought covers and leveled him up ARE posting their displeasure with this bait and switch, and I suspect there are others suffering in humiliated silence.

Unknown

simonsez wrote:

Lerysh wrote:

IF is still very very usable. His change has gone quietly unrpotested due mostly to A) it being warrented and 2) they didn't change the . He's still top teir 3*.

I'd say the more likely reason is that not many have a good working version of him already. The few people who have bought covers and leveled him up ARE posting their displeasure with this bait and switch, and I suspect there are others suffering in humiliated silence.

I'm pretty sure more are just not continuous forum lurkers and will be displeased when they find this change in game in 2 weeks. That said, I'm wondering if d3 is gambling that some people with IF won't even notice the change.

grunth13

Wow...I stopped playing this game 4 days ago and I am so bored but I have my life back. I did start C of C which I need to play for 1 minute every couple of hours, but I also now have time to read the news between seeing patients. Last night I played with my daughters like I hadn't in a couple of months. Now I see that they just nerfed everyone I was using. I was waiting for the next sale and spend 200 dollars and buy all needed covers for XF and TGT because I was tired of playing second (more like 5th string) for scraps. The only thing I did have going for me was Stormeto and Wininfinite and now those are gone. Players using maxed 2 stars with underpowered 3 stars have effectively been culled from the herd of placing high due to high scaling in pve and forget playing in pvp now because you just don't have anyone that can can compete. They just destroyed the 2 to 3 star transition after giving us dpq to ease it (I was using wininfinite to beat it...now I would be hard pressed to beat it with my characters). Not sure if I like the boredom, but the new nerf did save me 200 dollars. Maybe I will come back as a completely casual players, but how does a casual player do anything in this game without giving up at least a week of your life to get 1 maybe 2 covers for a character that won't help for months if you played like crazy or years (or never) when you play casually? Anyways, these nerfs are quite unsettling.

Unknown

MarvelMan wrote:

Look at the list you gave. Most, or all, were broken into uselessness. That should not be the goal, although it appears it was.

This is no different from fixing Sentry, Patchneto, Spidey, original Thorverine, Rags.

I think we disagree on the definition of uselessness or the definition of most.

Rags (before my time) - ridiculously broken character (2AP moves?!), fixed into an underpowered rarely used character waiting for a third power (let's not go there today)

Thorverine (before my time) - 2 star characters that were the most powerful in the game, fixed into top half 2 star characters.

Spidey - 6 blue ap was the end of the game, fixed into an underpowered character (needs a yellow tweak), who still has a strong PvE role.

Patchneto - another broken combo of infinite chains, fixed into 2 of the top 10 characters in the game still.

Sentry - master of the 30 second win, fixed into nothing more than a meat shield

Goddess - new master of the stunlock, fixed into ???.

Based on that, they have 2 good adjustments (Thorverine and Patchneto), 2 **** adjustments (Rags and Sentry), and 1 reasonable (slightly too much) adjustment in Spidey. Not a great track record but not as bad as you make it out to be.

As you may notice, the forums are filled with loud overreactions to the smallest of slights. When Magneto was nerfed, it was the end of the world - he was bashed into nerf oblivion and would never be used again. 1 month after that and it was recognized that it was a very good job of balancing the character. Personally, I think, when the dust settles and people play her, this nerf will fall between the Spidey and the Patchneto/Thorverine nerfs. A little too much, but still a strong, playable character.

turul

papa07 wrote:

MarvelMan wrote:

Look at the list you gave. Most, or all, were broken into uselessness. That should not be the goal, although it appears it was.

This is no different from fixing Sentry, Patchneto, Spidey, original Thorverine, Rags.

I think we disagree on the definition of uselessness or the definition of most.

Rags (before my time) - ridiculously broken character (2AP moves?!), fixed into an underpowered rarely used character waiting for a third power (let's not go there today)

Thorverine (before my time) - 2 star characters that were the most powerful in the game, fixed into top half 2 star characters.

Spidey - 6 blue ap was the end of the game, fixed into an underpowered character (needs a yellow tweak), who still has a strong PvE role.

Patchneto - another broken combo of infinite chains, fixed into 2 of the top 10 characters in the game still.

Sentry - master of the 30 second win, fixed into nothing more than a meat shield

Goddess - new master of the stunlock, fixed into ???.

Based on that, they have 2 good adjustments (Thorverine and Patchneto), 2 tinykitty adjustments (Rags and Sentry), and 1 reasonable (slightly too much) adjustment in Spidey. Not a great track record but not as bad as you make it out to be.

As you may notice, the forums are filled with loud overreactions to the smallest of slights. When Magneto was nerfed, it was the end of the world - he was bashed into nerf oblivion and would never be used again. 1 month after that and it was recognized that it was a very good job of balancing the character. Personally, I think, when the dust settles and people play her, this nerf will fall between the Spidey and the Patchneto/Thorverine nerfs. A little too much, but still a strong, playable character.

Dont forget they also destroyed Storm 1*/3*

GrumpySmurf1002

ark123 wrote:

1 - Posting Xavier's abilities before they were final, immediately nerfing him.
2 - Nerfing Winfinite

IceIX clearly notes that what he posts is pre-release data. They're teasers and were clearly an answer to turul's spoiler thread. It's seen as a nerf because of the reduction, but if you followed the spoiler thread, you know they made changes to him before his pre-release notes were even posted. There are likely more characters that underwent changes last minute, but those are unknown because their data wasn't released early.

On the second point, find me a combo that generates infinite turns, and I'll find you a combo that's going to get the nerf bat. Heck, they've gone after at least one combo (twin pistols-power surge) before it even hit the ground running. As i said in the other thread, this was inevitable. I did level Mystique, but not primarily because of this combo, and don't know that this change really moves her playability for me, if I'm being honest.

I personally don't see either of these as a big deal, so I find it interesting that it would make one angry, let alone enough to kill their motivation to play.

NorthernPolarity

At least with Blizzard, you felt like the devs at least had an idea of what was balanced and what wasn't, and tried to balance accordingly. The 4or yellow nerf is the most damning of these changes to me: there was literally 0 reason why they needed to change it, and yet they did it anyways just because they felt like since 4or was OP, all of her abilities needed tweaking. This shows zero real understanding of what actually needed to happen.

Unknown

NorthernPolarity wrote:

At least with Blizzard, you felt like the devs at least had an idea of what was balanced and what wasn't, and tried to balance accordingly. The 4or yellow nerf is the most damning of these changes to me: there was literally 0 reason why they needed to change it, and yet they did it anyways just because they felt like since 4or was OP, all of her abilities needed tweaking. This shows zero real understanding of what actually needed to happen.

They stated clearly that they undervalued charged tiles. There was virtually no change to damage on Yellow, just a reduction of charged tiles produced. Should they have increased the damage on Yellow - probably just so people might have to think about build designs, but they were consistent with their changes across all three powers.

NorthernPolarity

papa07 wrote:

NorthernPolarity wrote:

At least with Blizzard, you felt like the devs at least had an idea of what was balanced and what wasn't, and tried to balance accordingly. The 4or yellow nerf is the most damning of these changes to me: there was literally 0 reason why they needed to change it, and yet they did it anyways just because they felt like since 4or was OP, all of her abilities needed tweaking. This shows zero real understanding of what actually needed to happen.

They stated clearly that they undervalued charged tiles. There was virtually no change to damage on Yellow, just a reduction of charged tiles produced. Should they have increased the damage on Yellow - probably just so people might have to think about build designs, but they were consistent with their changes across all three powers.

I get why they did it. They presumably have balancing guidelines that say "Skill X should have roughly X points of power to it. Charge tiles are worth Y points." They realized they undervalued charge tiles, then from our point of view, presumably upped Ys value and toned down all the abilities accordingly. However, just the fact that they're doing this so rigidly is precisely what the problem is. Yellow in its previous incarnation didn't need any tweaks: the conditional nature of getting the charge tiles made it a counter ability and essentially balanced. The fact that they felt like they needed to tone it down because of that formula just shows to me that they don't have a deep understanding of what is really balanced and what isn't, and that's a pretty big problem in general if you're the developer of the game. A deeper understanding of balance would have led them to say "Hey, maybe this IF purple skill is too good, and we should tone it down before releasing the character and pissing people off", but instead they are forced to do it post launch and create accusations of cash grabbing and whatnot. Any player with any experience with 4or could have told you that yellow didn't need tweaking and that the only balance changes that needed to be done were on red and blue, and yet here we are.

Unknown

DrStrange-616 wrote:

My motivation is at an all-time low right now. The only thing that has me playing today is my alliance.

Consider the fun officially sucked.

Ditto this. Grinding for my alliance's benefit. I don't feel like it now.

Unknown

papa07 wrote:

NorthernPolarity wrote:

At least with Blizzard, you felt like the devs at least had an idea of what was balanced and what wasn't, and tried to balance accordingly. The 4or yellow nerf is the most damning of these changes to me: there was literally 0 reason why they needed to change it, and yet they did it anyways just because they felt like since 4or was OP, all of her abilities needed tweaking. This shows zero real understanding of what actually needed to happen.

They stated clearly that they undervalued charged tiles. There was virtually no change to damage on Yellow, just a reduction of charged tiles produced. Should they have increased the damage on Yellow - probably just so people might have to think about build designs, but they were consistent with their changes across all three powers.

SO make a bad ability worse is fine as long as you have a nonsensical justification? The charge tile generation is CONDITIONAL... how many common PvP matches even have enemy special tiles to target? The fact they don't even take the conditional nature of the skill into account is another damning example of their cluelessness.

konannfriends

turul wrote:

papa07 wrote:

MarvelMan wrote:

Look at the list you gave. Most, or all, were broken into uselessness. That should not be the goal, although it appears it was.

This is no different from fixing Sentry, Patchneto, Spidey, original Thorverine, Rags.

I think we disagree on the definition of uselessness or the definition of most.

Rags (before my time) - ridiculously broken character (2AP moves?!), fixed into an underpowered rarely used character waiting for a third power (let's not go there today)

Thorverine (before my time) - 2 star characters that were the most powerful in the game, fixed into top half 2 star characters.

Spidey - 6 blue ap was the end of the game, fixed into an underpowered character (needs a yellow tweak), who still has a strong PvE role.

Patchneto - another broken combo of infinite chains, fixed into 2 of the top 10 characters in the game still.

Sentry - master of the 30 second win, fixed into nothing more than a meat shield

Goddess - new master of the stunlock, fixed into ???.

Based on that, they have 2 good adjustments (Thorverine and Patchneto), 2 tinykitty adjustments (Rags and Sentry), and 1 reasonable (slightly too much) adjustment in Spidey. Not a great track record but not as bad as you make it out to be.

As you may notice, the forums are filled with loud overreactions to the smallest of slights. When Magneto was nerfed, it was the end of the world - he was bashed into nerf oblivion and would never be used again. 1 month after that and it was recognized that it was a very good job of balancing the character. Personally, I think, when the dust settles and people play her, this nerf will fall between the Spidey and the Patchneto/Thorverine nerfs. A little too much, but still a strong, playable character.

Dont forget they also destroyed Storm 1*/3*

Cascade queen into bottom tier useless.........

konannfriends

turul wrote:

papa07 wrote:

MarvelMan wrote:

Look at the list you gave. Most, or all, were broken into uselessness. That should not be the goal, although it appears it was.

This is no different from fixing Sentry, Patchneto, Spidey, original Thorverine, Rags.

I think we disagree on the definition of uselessness or the definition of most.

Rags (before my time) - ridiculously broken character (2AP moves?!), fixed into an underpowered rarely used character waiting for a third power (let's not go there today)

Thorverine (before my time) - 2 star characters that were the most powerful in the game, fixed into top half 2 star characters.

Spidey - 6 blue ap was the end of the game, fixed into an underpowered character (needs a yellow tweak), who still has a strong PvE role.

Patchneto - another broken combo of infinite chains, fixed into 2 of the top 10 characters in the game still.

Sentry - master of the 30 second win, fixed into nothing more than a meat shield

Goddess - new master of the stunlock, fixed into ???.

Based on that, they have 2 good adjustments (Thorverine and Patchneto), 2 tinykitty adjustments (Rags and Sentry), and 1 reasonable (slightly too much) adjustment in Spidey. Not a great track record but not as bad as you make it out to be.

As you may notice, the forums are filled with loud overreactions to the smallest of slights. When Magneto was nerfed, it was the end of the world - he was bashed into nerf oblivion and would never be used again. 1 month after that and it was recognized that it was a very good job of balancing the character. Personally, I think, when the dust settles and people play her, this nerf will fall between the Spidey and the Patchneto/Thorverine nerfs. A little too much, but still a strong, playable character.

Dont forget they also destroyed Storm 1*/3*

Cascade queen into bottom tier useless.........