PVP and 'overpowered' characters

h4n1s

My thought is that if it wasn't for PvP, we wouldn't have here the discussion about which character is overpowered and which not.

Sure, you can say that for PvE the quicker the character combo is the quicker you grind to the top, but let's face it - nodes refresh and and other balancing elements in PVE are quite mitigating the impact. And for PvE it is mainly about the progression rewards, rather than placement rewards (some may argue, but lets stick to that assumption for a while)

What are the major concerns about PVP?

Matchmaking...
- at certain point in time you hit the 'wall'. No matter how lame your roster is, you always hit it. And after that the game becomes ridiculously stereotypical. Fighting all over the same maxed teams of the games best characters is just not fun. But why do you hit the wall? Because...

...it is speed that decides...
- for high rank competition is shield-hopping a must as there's no in-game regulations of how much points you may lose per minute/hour/day while unshielded. Do you aim for more than 600 pts? Prepare to shield or prepare to lose at least 10-20% of your points in short time frame (and sometimes ridiculously short time frame - like 5 minutes = -100 pts). And that's why mainly the quickest combinations rule the top ranks (yet again you can say that also health, and AI ability to play that defensive team adds to that formula, but it is fairly small impact...)

Now... Every time I read some angry thread complaining about character balance it all comes down to speed. It all comes down to how unfair it is that the guy having 4THOR + XForce is able to beat me 3 times while my HULK and GSBW is still trying to finish off one match. How unfair it was that the guy who had SENTRY + HOOD combo (pre-nerf) was able to finish a match within 2 minutes, while it took me 7. And now those theories on speed of Iron Fist with Xforce provided they use +6 black AP boost...

COME ON! This is not a racing game! But I understand why people believe it is... and you devs, should really start brainstorming. Seriously start thinking about how to mitigate the factor of speed in PvP. Start thinking about how to make the PvP competition less dependent on time per match ratio. And if you don't think it's possible? Then stop pushing people to compete in PvP - remove SEASONS! Make PvP equal in importance to Lightning rounds, PvE, Daily quests, Gauntlet and Prologue. Make PvP only an alternative. As soon as you do that people might stop complaining about characters and will stop asking for buffs and nerfs. Or if not stop, they will at least complain less.

rednailz

another xforce/GT pvp complaint thread....yippie

h4n1s

rednailz wrote:

another xforce/GT pvp complaint thread....yippie

Have you actually read it?

Trisul

Some people happily play PvE only.

Just kidding, they're not happy.

Unknown

h4n1s wrote:

My thought is that if it wasn't for PvP, we wouldn't have here the discussion about which character is overpowered and which not.

Sure, you can say that for PvE the quicker the character combo is the quicker you grind to the top, but let's face it - nodes refresh and and other balancing elements in PVE are quite mitigating the impact. And for PvE it is mainly about the progression rewards, rather than placement rewards (some may argue, but lets stick to that assumption for a while)

What are the major concerns about PVP?

Matchmaking...
- at certain point in time you hit the 'wall'. No matter how lame your roster is, you always hit it. And after that the game becomes ridiculously stereotypical. Fighting all over the same maxed teams of the games best characters is just not fun. But why do you hit the wall? Because...

...it is speed that decides...
- for high rank competition is shield-hopping a must as there's no in-game regulations of how much points you may lose per minute/hour/day while unshielded. Do you aim for more than 600 pts? Prepare to shield or prepare to lose at least 10-20% of your points in short time frame (and sometimes ridiculously short time frame - like 5 minutes = -100 pts). And that's why mainly the quickest combinations rule the top ranks (yet again you can say that also health, and AI ability to play that defensive team adds to that formula, but it is fairly small impact...)

Now... Every time I read some angry thread complaining about character balance it all comes down to speed. It all comes down to how unfair it is that the guy having 4THOR + XForce is able to beat me 3 times while my HULK and GSBW is still trying to finish off one match. How unfair it was that the guy who had SENTRY + HOOD combo (pre-nerf) was able to finish a match within 2 minutes, while it took me 7. And now those theories on speed of Iron Fist with Xforce provided they use +6 black AP boost...

COME ON! This is not a racing game! But I understand why people believe it is... and you devs, should really start brainstorming. Seriously start thinking about how to mitigate the factor of speed in PvP. Start thinking about how to make the PvP competition less dependent on time per match ratio. And if you don't think it's possible? Then stop pushing people to compete in PvP - remove SEASONS! Make PvP equal in importance to Lightning rounds, PvE, Daily quests, Gauntlet and Prologue. Make PvP only an alternative. As soon as you do that people might stop complaining about characters and will stop asking for buffs and nerfs. Or if not stop, they will at least complain less.

I agree with you. One thought I had was to change the point scoring system to one that is similar to an arcade game where victory isn't the only part of the equation but how you win also matters. Handing out points for different abilities used, cascades, damage deflected, etc. so the game is still about winning but it's not all about speed, it's about using everything you have in the kitchen sink to get boat loads of points. Someone may be able to just win quickly 3 times versus someone else's 1 but the person who took the time to try and match 50 reds for bonus points or to fire off 4 green abilities would still have more points. Defensive losses and wins would have to be looked at closer but something along those lines may help with this dynamic.

h4n1s

EpicBeastmode wrote:

I agree with you. One thought I had was to change the point scoring system to one that is similar to an arcade game where victory isn't the only part of the equation but how you win also matters. Handing out points for different abilities used, cascades, damage deflected, etc. so the game is still about winning but it's not all about speed, it's about using everything you have in the kitchen sink to get boat loads of points. Someone may be able to just win quickly 3 times versus someone else's 1 but the person who took the time to try and match 50 reds for bonus points or to fire off 4 green abilities would still have more points. Defensive losses and wins would have to be looked at closer but something along those lines may help with this dynamic.

Yes

rednailz

h4n1s wrote:

rednailz wrote:

another xforce/GT pvp complaint thread....yippie

Have you actually read it?

If wasn't referance to your OP, but more of a prediction of where this is headed. I've barely seen a thread that mentions PvP that doesn't turn into one.

Trisul

rednailz wrote:

h4n1s wrote:

Have you actually read it?

If wasn't referance to your OP, but more of a prediction of where this is headed. I've barely seen a thread that mentions PvP that doesn't turn into one.

Translation: Nope.

rednailz

Trisul wrote:

rednailz wrote:

h4n1s wrote:

Have you actually read it?

If wasn't referance to your OP, but more of a prediction of where this is headed. I've barely seen a thread that mentions PvP that doesn't turn into one.

Translation: Nope.

Looks like we're both working with some assumptions, hey?

simonsez

rednailz wrote:

If wasn't referance to your OP, but more of a prediction of where this is headed. I've barely seen a thread that mentions PvP that doesn't turn into one.

If people address the point of the OP, it shouldn't. I agree with him... PvP shouldn't have a speed component built into it. If it didn't, fewer people would care to complain about XF/GT, since it's their speed that bugs people.

rednailz

simonsez wrote:

rednailz wrote:

If wasn't referance to your OP, but more of a prediction of where this is headed. I've barely seen a thread that mentions PvP that doesn't turn into one.

If people address the point of the OP, it shouldn't. I agree with him... PvP shouldn't have a speed component built into it. If it didn't, fewer people would care to complain about XF/GT, since it's their speed that bugs people.

I think that digs into a deeper issue though. To say PvP shouldn't have a speed component really opens the largest barrel of monkeys possible. The entire basis of hopping, defence and charecter choices are turned upside down if you were taking speed out of it. Devil Dino would be pretty much useless, Hulk wouldn't be half as useful. High hit point and deffence charecters wouldn't be as useful in PvP IMO.

i don't know how you'd even start to engineer some form of change for the speed factor, you have to address hoping in general IMO then. I happen to agree with the speed issue, and although I suck it up like everyone else, I'm not a fan of getting hit for 75 pts in the time it takes me to do 1 25 pt match (which is leaning torwards getting off topic).

I just don't know how you'd address the issue without turning everything upside down.

Trisul

rednailz wrote:

Looks like we're both working with some assumptions, hey?

Yup, I indeed assumed. Was that assumption wrong?

Unknown

There are a few problems this game has that are completely separable from any specific characters, and I think that's what the OP was trying to address. Specifically, what I think of as one of the uberproblems with the game:

The game is structured in a way that discourages and actively punishes risk-taking and innovation, especially in PVP.

Specifically, the problem is this: try an innovative team in PVP and even if it wins, if it's one the AI plays badly, it will get you absolutely pounced on by other players. Try an innovative team and lose? Lose points, and burn 60% of your health packs healing them back up. The game encourages everyone to try the OP team du jour (and there will always be one), and actively discourages building a broad diverse roster (through roster slot prices) and building up the same two people everyone else is, whoever that may be at any given time. XF/GT are the epitome of that currently, but there has always been some combo that is the designated "it" combo, and even if they nerfed all of the current candidates, two more would take their place.

I think a total revamp of PVP - possibly introduced as "experimental" second PVPs while the bugs worked out, that either finds ways to encourage varied team compositions, or reduces metagaming aspects to allow people to experiment - might help some of this. The problem, in short, is that PVP is really, really boring and repetitive, and it needs a redesign to draw people to the game.

Zen808

PVP's problem can be summed up with one simple Catch-22 that happens to be fundamental of the PVP rewards system:
Can't win until you improve.
Can't improve until you win.

If you fix that, everything else will kinda hash itself out.

Trisul

808SpicyToro wrote:

PVP's problem can be summed up with one simple Catch-22 that happens to be fundamental of the PVP rewards system:
Can't win until you improve.
Can't improve until you win.

If you fix that, everything else will kinda hash itself out.

An argument can be made that every player that has transitioned has somehow beaten your implied paradox.

notamutant

The solution is simple. I don't see why it isn't discussed more, although I have seen it mentioned many times. Simply limit the amount of points you can lose in a certain timeframe. Or make it so you at least get credit for the points you win before losses while in a fight are taken into account to let you get the reward you were so close to before unshielding. If you could lose a maximum of 100 points in a 15 minute time-frame, you would be much less concerned with the team you used, and wouldn't be so worried about unshielding. You wouldn't feel the need to speed through matches like crazy. You would be able to use teams more prone to retaliations since you could make up for it by winning more matches. It is entirely possible, although difficult and annoying, to win 100 points worth of matches in 15 minutes. It is not possible to win 200 points in 15 minutes, so why should have be afraid of playing the game by unshielding since you can't possibly get more points than you would lose at a certain point?

This would lead to some point inflation due to higher overall scores resulting from limiting point loss. I still think it is worth it and would make the game 10x better. I don't see how they think it is fair that multiple people can attack you at once while you can only attack one person at a time. This potentially solves that problem.

notamutant

Trisul wrote:

808SpicyToro wrote:

PVP's problem can be summed up with one simple Catch-22 that happens to be fundamental of the PVP rewards system:
Can't win until you improve.
Can't improve until you win.

If you fix that, everything else will kinda hash itself out.

An argument can be made that every player that has transitioned has somehow beaten your implied paradox.

That isn't really true. A player can transition from 2 star to 3 star slowly but surely. To transition to four star without already having four stars is not possible though. It is incredibly slow and risky to try for 1k without at least one 4 star fully covered. That is because there is no way someone can get 4 star covers as progression rewards in pve or as a top 150 reward in pve. They need to start releasing more 4 stars as progression awards in pve.

Trisul

notamutant wrote:

The solution is simple. I don't see why it isn't discussed more, although I have seen it mentioned many times. Simply limit the amount of points you can lose in a certain timeframe. Or make it so you at least get credit for the points you win before losses while in a fight are taken into account to let you get the reward you were so close to before unshielding. If you could lose a maximum of 100 points in a 15 minute time-frame, you would be much less concerned with the team you used, and wouldn't be so worried about unshielding. You wouldn't feel the need to speed through matches like crazy. You would be able to use teams more prone to retaliations since you could make up for it by winning more matches. It is entirely possible, although difficult and annoying, to win 100 points worth of matches in 15 minutes. It is not possible to win 200 points in 15 minutes, so why should have be afraid of playing the game by unshielding since you can't possibly get more points than you would lose at a certain point?

This would lead to some point inflation due to higher overall scores resulting from limiting point loss. I still think it is worth it and would make the game 10x better. I don't see how they think it is fair that multiple people can attack you at once while you can only attack one person at a time. This potentially solves that problem.

Pretty nice solution to encourage people to play teams they like, but it does rob D3 of a revenue stream (albeit a small one) in HP spent shielding.

notamutant wrote:

That isn't really true. A player can transition from 2 star to 3 star slowly but surely. To transition to four star without already having four stars is not possible though. It is incredibly slow and risky to try for 1k without at least one 4 star fully covered. That is because there is no way someone can get 4 star covers as progression rewards in pve or as a top 150 reward in pve. They need to start releasing more 4 stars as progression awards in pve.

It is indeed possible to transition to 4* by picking up the 1000 point progression rewards. Shield hopping is pretty effective using a fast 3* team like Patch/Hulk.

Zen808

Trisul wrote:

It is indeed possible to transition to 4* by picking up the 1000 point progression rewards. Shield hopping is pretty effective using a fast 3* team like Patch/Hulk.

Me: The problem with Need for Speed is fixed by eliminating Paradox.

Trisul: The problem with the Paradox is fixed by Speed.

NorthernPolarity

notamutant wrote:

The solution is simple. I don't see why it isn't discussed more, although I have seen it mentioned many times. Simply limit the amount of points you can lose in a certain timeframe. Or make it so you at least get credit for the points you win before losses while in a fight are taken into account to let you get the reward you were so close to before unshielding. If you could lose a maximum of 100 points in a 15 minute time-frame, you would be much less concerned with the team you used, and wouldn't be so worried about unshielding. You wouldn't feel the need to speed through matches like crazy. You would be able to use teams more prone to retaliations since you could make up for it by winning more matches. It is entirely possible, although difficult and annoying, to win 100 points worth of matches in 15 minutes. It is not possible to win 200 points in 15 minutes, so why should have be afraid of playing the game by unshielding since you can't possibly get more points than you would lose at a certain point?

This would lead to some point inflation due to higher overall scores resulting from limiting point loss. I still think it is worth it and would make the game 10x better. I don't see how they think it is fair that multiple people can attack you at once while you can only attack one person at a time. This potentially solves that problem.

This is not a simple solution. Point inflation would go crazy, to the point where in order to keep up, you would need to be basically grinding PvP 24/7 in order to win. The current system is flawed, but at least we don't have to dedicate the entire day to playing the event if we want to win.

Unknown

rednailz wrote:

simonsez wrote:

rednailz wrote:

If wasn't referance to your OP, but more of a prediction of where this is headed. I've barely seen a thread that mentions PvP that doesn't turn into one.

If people address the point of the OP, it shouldn't. I agree with him... PvP shouldn't have a speed component built into it. If it didn't, fewer people would care to complain about XF/GT, since it's their speed that bugs people.

I think that digs into a deeper issue though. To say PvP shouldn't have a speed component really opens the largest barrel of monkeys possible. The entire basis of hopping, defence and charecter choices are turned upside down if you were taking speed out of it. Devil Dino would be pretty much useless, Hulk wouldn't be half as useful. High hit point and deffence charecters wouldn't be as useful in PvP IMO.

Those two are already useless.

As defensive scarecrows anyway.

Hulk has value as a hulk bomber.

But if you're trying to argue taking speed out of the game invalidates high health and defense characters, then I have some bad news for you.

That happened 6 months ago.