Characters and the problem with CD tiles

Phaserhawk

I was looking at my roster the other day and started to notice the large amount that create CD tiles and it started to dawn on me the great disparity amongst some characters and the CD tiles that are part of their skills. Let me start with what I would consider the perfect type of CD tiles.

X-Force
Captain America
Nick Fury
Beast (you'll see what I mean)
Ares
Loki

What these guys have and some others, is that their CD tiles are either on a perfect timer like Beast or Ares (yes Beast skill sucks, but the 1 CD timer is perfect if it would resolve better). Your others like Nick Fury, has a large upside on his CD tile if it resolves, but at least it gives you something up front, like damage. Captain America's are probably the best in the game as they are placeable and return and X-Force at least gets something if it doesn't resolve, and I have found that characters that are stuck in this meh, area are ones that need something like the characters above.

Star-Lord--The tiles are great, but the are very high risk as that's a lot of AP spent for lots of possible loss. What he needs is something similar to X-Force where if the tile is destroyed, he gets something, whether it's damage or AP, etc he needs something on the red and yellow. Purple is fine since it's placeable and can override all.

Psylocke--Possibly one of the worst skills in the game her blue is random, takes forever to go off, and not guaranteed to do anything.

Punisher--his CD tiles are sort of okay, they just need a damage upgrade

Black Panther--he's probably okay, it would be nice though that if the tile was destroyed you got one more random defensive tile

Falcon--his are just about right

Colossus--fine he gets to place

Daredevil--it would be nice if he got even 1 AP back if the enemy destroyed them

Deadpool--the CD tile is fine it's getting it to trigger is the big problem

Human Torch--skill is fine, would be nice if placeable

IM40--actually not a terrible CD skill

Mystique--she really should be able to place this, or at the very least gets AP back, this skill is just so random

Rocket and Groot--max level their CD is perfect

Sentry--ugh, this guys has more problems then his ridicoulsy CD timer

Hulk--another spot on one

Punisher--the skill and CD feel right, although he is a marksman, you would think he could place it, same with his green skill

Hawkeye--At least he can place, but his CD tiles still feel a bit too long and clunky

Mags Marvel now--His tiles are a mess, blue gets worse CD timer wise but red's gets better but more expensive, and none are placeable, I think MNmags needs a tweak

Moonstone--ugh

Bag Man--double ugh

So when you look at some of these characters and wonder why they don't see more play, it's because while their CD tile makes them cool and unique, it makes them too risky and unreliable, hopefully this gets addressed when these characters are out of rotation.

rixmith

Well said. Things which add strategy (putting the puzzle in Puzzle Quest) like placeable countdown tiles and selectable tiles for color changes greatly enhance the fun of the game. I think the concept that randomly placed tiles either have a bonus up front, a consequence when they are matched away. or a 1 turn timer is an excellent game design philosophy.

dider152

I think your gripe is okay when you are playing the characters...but it would be totally different if you where the one playing. Let's say all countdown tiles where only 1 turn. It would make matching them before they activated really irritating, especially since the computer likes to spawn countdown tiles (for the opposing team) around the perimeter of the board.

PuceMoose

I think a discussion about countdown tiles is interesting and I'm glad you made the post. The Starlord discussion thread is a fun read - people seem to either think he's fun and interesting, or think he's a pile of garbage, largely because of The Countdown Mechanic (which sounds like an indie band name).

I am a big fan of the Punisher (Punisher/Psylocke/Falcon is my main go-to team for PvE nodes), so I'll start there for some possible balance changes.

Punisher--the skill and CD feel right, although he is a marksman, you would think he could place it, same with his green skill

I wonder if his green was target-able, if Punisher would launch higher in the rankings? He certainly has fallen into low/mid-tier, though I still think he's probably one of the most balanced characters in the game. We have quite a few characters with one good, one decent, one terrible ability, so it's nice to have a *** character with three good (if not great) abilities.
I would love to see his green target-able, considering the marksman angle. Targeted destruction tends to be expensive, though, and 8 green for 3 reasonably powerful strike tiles *and* targeted destruction probably makes it too cheap. Maybe a new kind of targeting mechanic, that lets you pick either the left or the right half of the board? Regarding the black, I don't have a problem with it being randomly placed (considering a molotov cocktail's haphazard incendiary dispersal), but I think that it should generate a randomly placed CD *and* a strike tile when it's launched (*something* is going to burn!), so that you at least get a small added benefit even if the countdown is matched before it can resolve a single time.

Psylocke--Possibly one of the worst skills in the game her blue is random, takes forever to go off, and not guaranteed to do anything.

I still think this is the quickest fix of all - Bewilder targets a chosen basic tile, and steals that color when it resolves. For a bit of extra pep it could even do a modest amount of damage to the target if it is matched away (maybe 3x level * skill level), reflecting Psylocke's anger at having her psychic trickery foiled. Doesn't seem unreasonable, considering how pricey and unreliable the skill is currently.

Phaserhawk

dider152 wrote:

I think your gripe is okay when you are playing the characters...but it would be totally different if you where the one playing. Let's say all countdown tiles where only 1 turn. It would make matching them before they activated really irritating, especially since the computer likes to spawn countdown tiles (for the opposing team) around the perimeter of the board.

Oh good Lord no, I don't want them all to be 1 CD, that as you said would be irritating, but no one likes spending 6-12 AP on a skill then watch it do nothing. A second effect if the tile is destroyed would be much appreciated and go a long way to balancing characters. Take Star-Lord for example, if his red did 1/2 the damage when it came down and then the other 1/2 when it resolves, it then becomes a very solid skill. If his yellow gets matched away you get 3 yellow AP returned.

If a tile is going to sit out there for 3-5 turns I want it to do something regardless if it resolves or not. What if there was a 14 AP 5 CD tile that says when tile resolves you win the game. Well now you have a reason to put all your eggs in one basket, because the risk vs. reward is immense. This will cost me a lot of AP and has a long wait, but the results are huge.

To me CD tiles should be like Dragon Ball Z. The time it takes for the counter to go off is just them powering up, if they don't have time to get to full power, they are still able to fight, they just aren't as strong as they could be. In fact, that actually gives me an idea based off of Frieza's many forms.

What if you did a CD 5 and depending upon how many countdown timers are left dictates the skill. If it resolves you get the full power. If 3 counts are still on it, it does X or Y when matched away, but if it has 2 left it would do X,Y, and Z. That would be an intersting mechanic, because at worst you would do the 5 timer match away.

Unknown

For me, whether a CD ability is any good depends on 2 things:

1) How likely is it to go off (can I place it, how long is its duration)

2) How much extra am I getting for it being a CD tile.

The best CD abilities in the game both live on 3* captain america. I can place the tiles making them relatively safe AND you get a MASSIVE amount of extra value for the abilities being on a CD tile (can overwrite enemy specials, most of the cost back, BIG protect tile).

The worst CD abilities tend to fail to deliver on point number 2. Take Bewilder as an example. It costs 10 AP and is an AP steal with no other effects. Fortunately there is another 10 AP cost steal in the form of a 4 cover OBW purple. Bewilder can steal 19AP of one colour (not that the ai every really has that) and OBW can steal 4AP from 5 colours for a total potential of 20 and likely to be getting more overall than a bewilder and more likely to be colours you want. SO essentially bewilder is a WORSE steal on a CD tile when it should be a lot better for the fact it doesn't resolve immediately and you risk nothing happening at all if the tile gets matched.

There are too many abilities that fail to sufficiently reward you for the risk involved in them being stapled to a CD tile and, IMO, for all those abilities the magnitude of their effect simply needs to be increased. Randomly placed is fine just as long as the effect is better (and imo 50% better is reasonable unless the CD tile is very short (1 turn) ) than a similarly costed instant use ability. Anything less than that and the ability, and by extension the character, starts coming across as too weak.

Phaserhawk

bonfire01 wrote:

For me, whether a CD ability is any good depends on 2 things:

1) How likely is it to go off (can I place it, how long is its duration)

2) How much extra am I getting for it being a CD tile.

The best CD abilities in the game both live on 3* captain america. I can place the tiles making them relatively safe AND you get a MASSIVE amount of extra value for the abilities being on a CD tile (can overwrite enemy specials, most of the cost back, BIG protect tile).

The worst CD abilities tend to fail to deliver on point number 2. Take Bewilder as an example. It costs 10 AP and is an AP steal with no other effects. Fortunately there is another 10 AP cost steal in the form of a 4 cover OBW purple. Bewilder can steal 19AP of one colour (not that the ai every really has that) and OBW can steal 4AP from 5 colours for a total potential of 20 and likely to be getting more overall than a bewilder and more likely to be colours you want. SO essentially bewilder is a WORSE steal on a CD tile when it should be a lot better for the fact it doesn't resolve immediately and you risk nothing happening at all if the tile gets matched.

There are too many abilities that fail to sufficiently reward you for the risk involved in them being stapled to a CD tile and, IMO, for all those abilities the magnitude of their effect simply needs to be increased. Randomly placed is fine just as long as the effect is better (and imo 50% better is reasonable unless the CD tile is very short (1 turn) ) than a similarly costed instant use ability. Anything less than that and the ability, and by extension the character, starts coming across as too weak.

spot on. Look at Beast. If his CD tile did what the original intention was, it would be a great costed, high probability resolving tile and worth casting. I think part of the problem is that they try to get the skill to do this insane thing like Psylocke's blue, I mean you are never going to steal 19AP but even if you could it may or may not help you, but it's like they got so fixated on the "Steals 19AP" and then tried to balance the skill from that instead of maybe taking the less is more approach. I for one would rather have the tile do less but have a high rate of success vs. doing this insane thing for little to no chance.

You said it correct, look at Captain America and you see the 2 best CD tile skills in the game. Star-Lord's purple would be #3 IMO since it does everything the same but the AP return, but goes off 1 turn sooner.

But I think having a second effect if the CD tile is destroyed or at least getting some of the value up front and the rest if resolved would go very far to balancing characters without increasing their power, it just increases their playability.

Take Psylocke, leave everything the same, except add "if tile is destroyed on the enemies turn, tile steals 2 AP from their largest pool". You did nothing to increase her power, you just gave her more conscitency and made her more playable.

Here's another.

Defense Grid - Blue 8
Places a Blue Countdown tile that converts a basic color tile to a strength 9 Protect tile every 2 turns. If 3 or more Protect tiles are in play, conversion is suspended. If CD tile is destroyed on enemies turn create a random strength 3 tile.
Level 2: Max 3 protect tiles out at a time
Level 3: Increases Protect strength to 14.
Level 4: Max 5 protect tiles out at a time
Level 5: Increases Protect strength to 18.
Max Level: Strength 140 protect tiles, Strength 46 tile if CD tile destroyed.

Again you did nothing to increase his power, you just increased his value.

Here's a final one

Everyone With Me 7
Star-Lord quickly pulls together a plan - or at least most of one. Places a 3-turn Countdown tile. While at least one such tile is on the board, all friendly Red and Yellow ability costs are reduced by 1. (Dev note: This is placed on a random Yellow tile). If the tile is destroyed by the enemy, refund 3 yellow AP

Oldest Trick in the Book 8
Star-Lord points past his enemy and shouts "Hey! Is that Beta Ray Bill?" before swinging in with a sucker punch. He creates a 2-turn Countdown tile which deals 612 damage total damage, 1/2 upon creation and the other half on resolve. While at least one such tile is on the board, all enemy Red and Green ability costs are increased by 1. (Dev note: This is placed on a random Red tile)

Both of this things on Star-Lord do not increase his power, it just increases his value

CD tiles should not be as simple as, cast it and hope it resolves, there should be stategy, on both sides...Do I destroy it, do I let it resolve it adds depth to the game and balances characters without increasing power.