I had a feeling this game cheated...

2

Comments

  • NorthernPolarity
    NorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2015
    Mandorallen wrote:
    What ceases to amaze me are the apologists that have come here and defended a company they have no vested interest in... unless they actually do? Look, I probably did end up missing the tile somehow, though I still don't think I did. However, do NOT think that a company, whose sole purpose is to make as much money as possible off its customers, will not resort to whatever covert means necessary to achieve its goals.

    Do people really believe that D3P is altruistic? No, they are going to do whatever they can to make us purchase health packs, buy coins for covers and take our money greedily. That's how they MAKE THEIR MONEY. I can understand a little skepticism, but to dismiss the possibility of cheating outright is completely NAIVE.

    Yeah, but you're going to the opposite end of the spectrum saying that everything they do is evil, which is utterly ridiculous. You know what a company that actually was trying to cash grab would do? Whenever they release a 4*, introduce significant power creep so that everyone is forced to buy them. NOT buff X-Force, a character that almost all the veterans had and thus wouldn't spend money on, to top tier status. So on and so forth. Sure, they have to make money, but most companies tend to not completely screw over their customers to do so since that's obviously bad for long term revenue as everyone will realize that and leave. You're starting to sound like one of those conspiracy theorists by saying this: we aren't saying Demiurge is always altrustic, but none of their behavior suggests that their entire purpose is to screw us over. For your situation, two things could have gone on:

    1. The game could have deliberately placed the CD tile there and "cheated". We have seen very few accounts of this happening before at all, so if it did cheat this way, it affects a very few % of the playerbase, and so the developers have spent time coding a cheat into the game that happens 0.1% of the time to all users just to maybe sometimes cause you to lose a match and spend more money on health packs (which is also questionable, as you can see later).
    2. You missed the CD tile.

    You tell me which explanation sounds absolutely ridiculous and which one probably happened.

    BTW, don't even mention health packs in your argument. http://venturebeat.com/2014/04/08/marve ... au-part-1/ shows that the only thing that really matters is probably cover packs. To "cheat" and make players buy more health packs which accounts for under 5% of their revenue is idiotic from a business perspective.
  • TaoSpoons
    TaoSpoons Posts: 50
    JCTthe3rd81 wrote:
    While I'm fairly certain that the Ai does not cheat, I do believe that D3 has bumped up the intelligence a bit recently. They have said before that they leave the Ai intelligence low, or dumbed down, on purpose. But my recent experiences are leading me to believe that they may have raised it up a bit, not much, but enough to notice.

    I've only played since early December so my sample timeframe is minimal, but I feel like I've noticed this phenomenon, too. It's mostly evident in the area of the AI trying to down a particular hero. Not that I didn't play cagey (if possible) and wait for openings before, but I think it's more necessary now.
  • IamTheDanger
    IamTheDanger Posts: 1,093 Chairperson of the Boards
    TaoSpoons wrote:
    JCTthe3rd81 wrote:
    While I'm fairly certain that the Ai does not cheat, I do believe that D3 has bumped up the intelligence a bit recently. They have said before that they leave the Ai intelligence low, or dumbed down, on purpose. But my recent experiences are leading me to believe that they may have raised it up a bit, not much, but enough to notice.

    I've only played since early December so my sample timeframe is minimal, but I feel like I've noticed this phenomenon, too. It's mostly evident in the area of the AI trying to down a particular hero. Not that I didn't play cagey (if possible) and wait for openings before, but I think it's more necessary now.


    And what really hurts is when I see the Ai has enough Ap to use several powers, so I try not to use a certain character to keep them from going down. But then, suddenly, there is only 1 possible match on the entire board. And it just happens to be for my most powerful character, the one I was trying not to use. Which puts them out front so the Ai can take them out, which they do.

    I know that is just bad luck or a bad board, but it still stings icon_lol.gif .
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    There's no need for them to ever improve the AI because if they want to improve the AI all they have to do is remove the huge handicaps the AI plays with. I was playing Gems of War (basically MPQ clone) where the AI does not have a 'cannot target whoever they want' handicap and they just instant kill your support guys with the first move that does good damage, and it really wouldn't be very hard to code the AI to do the same thing. It's made to be purposely bad so that the player usually win (though scaling seems to counter this). If the goal is for the AI to win, they'd just stop playing with a huge handicap. For one, it'd be a coin flip as to who goes first instead of the AI always going second (a huge handicap given a nontrivial number of games can be decided on the first move).
  • scottee
    scottee Posts: 1,610 Chairperson of the Boards
    If there were video evidence of the programmers blatantly causing the AI to cheat, everyone would stop playing and they'd lose a whole ton of money.

    So it's in their best interest to make sure the AI is not cheating.

    Also, if detection bias and selective memory didn't exist, we wouldn't have 2/3 of the threads in the General Discussion.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Most of us believe the AI does not cheat as is evident In this thread and many others, I too have been taken unaware by the seemingly teleported countdown tile.

    Basically if you are that thoroughly convinced it does cheat, there is one recourse you can do. uninstall the game and walk away. bluecrit.pnggreencrit.pngpurplecrit.pngredcrit.pngyellowcrit.pngwhitecrit.png
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    If the AI does cheat it wouldn't be too hard to figure it out. Let's say the AI is twice as likely to get favorable cascades, you can start making a recording for that and it'd be pretty obvious after a while, and it'd look like after X number of games you got 100 lucky cascades while the opponent has 200, and assuming we're able to define 'lucky cascade' precisely and that we also guessed correctly what kind of cheating the AI is doing (for example, if it's secretly giving them more match 5s but we're looking for 3-chain match 3s then it wouldn't work). But really, why would the AI need to cheat when it is already crippled on purpose to let you beat it? If D3 wants you to lose more, the first thing they can do is lift the 'cannot target character' restriction, and just make the AI always target the person with the lowest HP that isn't Wolverine, Daken, or a loaner.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    NorthernPolarity wrote:

    Yeah, but you're going to the opposite end of the spectrum saying that everything they do is evil, which is utterly ridiculous. You know what a company that actually was trying to cash grab would do? Whenever they release a 4*, introduce significant power creep so that everyone is forced to buy them. NOT buff X-Force, a character that almost all the veterans had and thus wouldn't spend money on, to top tier status. So on and so forth. Sure, they have to make money, but most companies tend to not completely screw over their customers to do so since that's obviously bad for long term revenue as everyone will realize that and leave. You're starting to sound like one of those conspiracy theorists by saying this: we aren't saying Demiurge is always altrustic, but none of their behavior suggests that their entire purpose is to screw us over. For your situation, two things could have gone on:

    1. The game could have deliberately placed the CD tile there and "cheated". We have seen very few accounts of this happening before at all, so if it did cheat this way, it affects a very few % of the playerbase, and so the developers have spent time coding a cheat into the game that happens 0.1% of the time to all users just to maybe sometimes cause you to lose a match and spend more money on health packs (which is also questionable, as you can see later).
    2. You missed the CD tile.

    You tell me which explanation sounds absolutely ridiculous and which one probably happened.

    BTW, don't even mention health packs in your argument. http://venturebeat.com/2014/04/08/marve ... au-part-1/ shows that the only thing that really matters is probably cover packs. To "cheat" and make players buy more health packs which accounts for under 5% of their revenue is idiotic from a business perspective.

    Did I ever say they were evil? No, I said they were a COMPANY, meaning their primary goal is to make money. Granted, some may believe being a for-profit company is inherently evil, but I am not one if them. That said, this entire "app"-driven world is low-hanging fruit for these developers, because they know many people have a love of virtual goods. One way to increase profit is to set up a game to "coax" it's players into purchasing items that benefit their game experience. Whether through code implementation or clever marketing, doesn't matter. Each avenue is a means to their end, more profit. The world is an unscrupulous place. Trust me, I work in risk management, so I know from first-hand experience.

    Now, to address your numbered comments:

    1) If a developer was going to Implement a cheat, then they would do it EXACTLY as you describe. How else would they get away with it? Blatantly cheating gets you caught, but putting in a random little cheat that starts rolling out slowly? Hmmm... makes you think. Am I saying that's what is happening here? I may have been at first, because that's what I believed. I was reacting emotionally to a stimuli, but now I'm simply creating dialogue on the subject, if you will.
    2) READ MY PREVIOUS POSTS. I actually ADMITTED, twice I might add, that I probably missed the tile, though again, I don't believe I did. And now others, it seems, may have experienced a similar situation. Interesting.

    Now, let's think about this realistically. You say I'm being ridiculous. You're probably right. However, what is more ridiculous; thinking that the company might be resorting to a little "creativity" in their code, or essentially arguing that the possibility doesn't exist?
  • Trisul
    Trisul Posts: 887 Critical Contributor
    Mandorallen wrote:
    You say I'm being ridiculous. You're probably right. However, what is more ridiculous; thinking that the company might be resorting to a little "creativity" in their code, or essentially arguing that the possibility doesn't exist?
    Um, NP wasn't saying that cheating is literally impossible (a strange straw man). He's saying that D3 has no financial incentive to cheat players. They really don't. The RNG inherent in the game does all that work for them.

    If anything, it's MORE work to build in random AI cheating into the game system. The devs have a fairly small team... I'm sure they'd rather think up power sets for new character (a more reliable way to make money) than think of creative ways to cheat players.
  • NorthernPolarity
    NorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    Mandorallen wrote:
    NorthernPolarity wrote:

    Yeah, but you're going to the opposite end of the spectrum saying that everything they do is evil, which is utterly ridiculous. You know what a company that actually was trying to cash grab would do? Whenever they release a 4*, introduce significant power creep so that everyone is forced to buy them. NOT buff X-Force, a character that almost all the veterans had and thus wouldn't spend money on, to top tier status. So on and so forth. Sure, they have to make money, but most companies tend to not completely screw over their customers to do so since that's obviously bad for long term revenue as everyone will realize that and leave. You're starting to sound like one of those conspiracy theorists by saying this: we aren't saying Demiurge is always altrustic, but none of their behavior suggests that their entire purpose is to screw us over. For your situation, two things could have gone on:

    1. The game could have deliberately placed the CD tile there and "cheated". We have seen very few accounts of this happening before at all, so if it did cheat this way, it affects a very few % of the playerbase, and so the developers have spent time coding a cheat into the game that happens 0.1% of the time to all users just to maybe sometimes cause you to lose a match and spend more money on health packs (which is also questionable, as you can see later).
    2. You missed the CD tile.

    You tell me which explanation sounds absolutely ridiculous and which one probably happened.

    BTW, don't even mention health packs in your argument. http://venturebeat.com/2014/04/08/marve ... au-part-1/ shows that the only thing that really matters is probably cover packs. To "cheat" and make players buy more health packs which accounts for under 5% of their revenue is idiotic from a business perspective.

    Did I ever say they were evil? No, I said they were a COMPANY, meaning their primary goal is to make money. Granted, some may believe being a for-profit company is inherently evil, but I am not one if them. That said, this entire "app"-driven world is low-hanging fruit for these developers, because they know many people have a love of virtual goods. One way to increase profit is to set up a game to "coax" it's players into purchasing items that benefit their game experience. Whether through code implementation or clever marketing, doesn't matter. Each avenue is a means to their end, more profit. The world is an unscrupulous place. Trust me, I work in risk management, so I know from first-hand experience.

    Now, to address your numbered comments:

    1) If a developer was going to Implement a cheat, then they would do it EXACTLY as you describe. How else would they get away with it? Blatantly cheating gets you caught, but putting in a random little cheat that starts rolling out slowly? Hmmm... makes you think. Am I saying that's what is happening here? I may have been at first, because that's what I believed. I was reacting emotionally to a stimuli, but now I'm simply creating dialogue on the subject, if you will.
    2) READ MY PREVIOUS POSTS. I actually ADMITTED, twice I might add, that I probably missed the tile, though again, I don't believe I did. And now others, it seems, may have experienced a similar situation. Interesting.

    Now, let's think about this realistically. You say I'm being ridiculous. You're probably right. However, what is more ridiculous; thinking that the company might be resorting to a little "creativity" in their code, or essentially arguing that the possibility doesn't exist?

    I have read your previous posts, but one of my biggest pet peeves are these ridiculous implications that the developers would do something like adding a cheat to the game for the sole purpose of getting more revenue, hence my heated response to the subject. Your view is clearly that companies will do things that might not be altruistic in order to make money, which I completely agree with. It's just that in this case, with the information we know regarding exactly how demiurge is making money in the first place, your explanation makes absolutely no sense whatsoever logically speaking.

    Your argument reminds me a lot about the loch ness monster. People say "I saw the loch ness monster, it was right there!", and yet, no substantial or photographic evidence at all supporting the claim. Is it ridiculous to argue that the possibility that the loch ness monster doesn't exist? Probably, since there's obviously some miniscule probability of anything happening in the world. Does it make any sense at all to believe that it DOES exist given all of the evidence stacked against it? Probably not, especially since all of the evidence we have clearly points to there being no loch ness monster.

    There is no motivation for adding this cheat to the game.
    1. If any player records themselves playing the game demonstrating that this cheat has actually happened, then Demiurge loses an insane amount of credibility with their players.
    2. What are they even getting out of this cheat? That somewhere out there, 1% of the players is experiencing this cheat, and of that 1%, maybe another 10% of people actually end up buying a health pack? If health packs are under 5% of their revenue, you're saying that the developers deliberately introduced this cheat, spent time coding + testing it (which is non trivial, since if you get a new bug, then how you do know if its the cheat or an actual bug) for a grand total of an extra less than 1% of total revenue earned. This is a complete waste of time from a business and development perspective, and it makes zero sense to actually do.

    So sure, the possibility of the cheat exists. Just like the possibility that the loch ness monster exists, or that 4or is balanced in the current metagame.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    The best part(s) of this entire thread are the "I DEFINITELY PROBABLY MAYBE ASSUREDLY DID NOT MISS THAT TILE THAT I PROBABLY MISSED AND WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT I DIDN'T MISS THAT TILE, PROBABLY!" posts.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    I love all these threads of the game cheated, but there's never video or screen caps of it.

    Don't worrry, one day, mark my words, we'll have the proof we need so that that our plight can no longer be ignored. The truth is out there!
    Way out there.
  • Trisul
    Trisul Posts: 887 Critical Contributor
    The_Valeyard wrote:
    I love all these threads of the game cheated, but there's never video or screen caps of it.

    Don't worrry, one day, mark my words, we'll have the proof we need so that that our plight can no longer be ignored. The truth is out there!
    Way out there.
    Are you essentially arguing that truth doesn't exist? icon_razz.gif
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Trisul wrote:
    The_Valeyard wrote:
    I love all these threads of the game cheated, but there's never video or screen caps of it.

    Don't worrry, one day, mark my words, we'll have the proof we need so that that our plight can no longer be ignored. The truth is out there!
    Way out there.
    Are you essentially arguing that truth doesn't exist? icon_razz.gif

    I am arguing that they should have brought back The X-Files a long time ago. It seems pretty lame to wait this long.

    Also, the first couple seasons of Fringe were awesome.

    Wait, what was your question again?
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Video or photographic proof of something that happens almost instantaneously? Yeah, let me get right on that. icon_rolleyes.gif

    Look, I bow to superior logic in this instance. It is almost impossible to argue the validity of something without proof. I know this. I was probably being ridiculous. Ok, no probably about it. I also said I reacted emotionally to the situation. I do that from time to time. Allow me to amend my statement from THE GAME CHEATS to I FELT CHEATED.

    However, I will say this; comparing my argument to that of those yokels that claim they've seen the Loch Ness Monster is a slap in my...

    HOLY **** IS THAT THE LOCH NESS MONSTER RIGHT THERE?!?!?
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Mandorallen wrote:
    Video or photographic proof of something that happens almost instantaneously? Yeah, let me get right on that. icon_rolleyes.gif

    Look, I bow to superior logic in this instance. It is almost impossible to argue the validity of something without proof. I know this. I was probably being ridiculous. Ok, no probably about it. I also said I reacted emotionally to the situation. I do that from time to time. Allow me to amend my statement from THE GAME CHEATS to I FELT CHEATED.

    However, I will say this; comparing my argument to that of those yokels that claim they've seen the Loch Ness Monster is a slap in my...

    HOLY **** IS THAT THE LOCH NESS MONSTER RIGHT THERE?!?!?

    It's not just you. A while back (5-6 months ago), me and few others posted a much more in depth thread on a related topic. The bottomline is without video of it, no one will believe any one making these or similar type claims.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    The_Valeyard wrote:

    It's not just you. A while back (5-6 months ago), me and few others posted a much more in depth thread on a related topic. The bottomline is without video of it, no one will believe any one making these or similar type claims.

    Thanks. It might not be just me, but I know better than to argue without proof. Again, my emotionality reigned supreme. I can admit when I'm wrong. icon_redface.gif
  • Trisul
    Trisul Posts: 887 Critical Contributor
    In my experience, Internet forums are really not the best place to get emotional validation.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Trisul wrote:
    In my experience, Internet forums are really not the best place to get emotional validation.

    I emotionally validate that statement.
  • over_clocked
    over_clocked Posts: 3,961
    Vertigozooropa wrote:
    The Decoy, or whichever Doombot mook creates the black Temporal Flux tile that stuns you, managed to put out five of them in about five turns. I think even with the synthetic Technopathic Strike they do, they'd have needed 30 black AP, and a further 20 in the next few turns. Maybe, maybe not.
    As for that one, it's Active/Passive, and yes, the passive places tiles for no AP every turn.

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