Another plea for a reduced character introduction schedule

Vhailorx

I know that demiurge seems pretty committed to the new character every 2 weeks, but I think this schedule is a bad idea and I wanted to add my voice to the very large number of other forumites who have expressed the same opinion.

Every two weeks is just too much.

First there are the obvious monetary considerations. The game basically requires a new roster slot (or more) every two weeks, to keep pace with the player universe. That gets expensive once a player already has 30+ slots. I recognize that some will argue that choosing which characters to roster is "fun," but I would respond that if demiurge is having so much fun making and releasing these new characters, they should actually expect people to play with them. It's great that colognessiuer (spelling?) is dropping $99 U.S. on the game every two weeks to cover max and roster the new characters, but I don't think that very many people are spending that much and I doubt the whale population can sustain the game financially forever. A broader paying base seems like a more stable long-term plan.

Second, and maybe more importantly, this ridiculous pace prevents the player base from actually enjoying the new characters. Luke Cage was released just after the new year. he was almost universally praised by the player base, and is generally considered to be one the best new characters released since the summer of '14. And yet there is virtually no discussion about him whatsoever in the forums. Even the most dedicated members of the MPQ community have already moved on to Squirrel Girl and now Star-lord. I can make the same point about Blade, who is the next most well-received new character of the last 6 months. Basically, the vast majority of players have few, if any, covers for cage. So now that he is not boosted, he basically has no value to anyone who won't spend money on him, and will have no value for months. I am just now getting a useable Blade, approximately 3 months after his release. He's awesome! a ton of fun to play, an also fairly unique among the current player universe. But I didn't really know that until the last two weeks because I didn't have enough covers to get him above level 65. Nor did I really get enough exposure to a high level blade in the few "loaner" nodes back when he was introduced in October.

With a slower release schedule, the player community would have more time to evaluate, discuss, and experiment with the new characters. That might actually lead to more interest in the good ones (and also to more crowdsourcing/troubleshooting for the poor ones).

As is, the hideously slow 2*-->3* transition, combined with the amazing pace of character releases, risk making the game feel like a tedious chore (a highly addictive chore, thanks to the skinner box mechanics, but still a chore), rather than an enjoyable hobby.

Please, please slow down the rate of character releases. One new character a month/season would be ideal.

Unknown

The speed the characters gets released doesn't matter as long as the format doesn't change. Since you only use 2 characters in the vast majority of PvP and 3 in PvE, anyone who isn't top 5 material is simply not relevent. As the pool of character gets bigger, it'd be naturally harder and harder for any new guy to crack the top 5 if one assumes there isn't some kind of P2W agenda (in that case every new character should break into top 5 consistently, which sure isn't the case). We're far past the threshold for total number of characters where we can expect a new, relatively balanced character to have a shot at cracking the top 5, consider the current top 5 is occupied by some very broken characters.

That said, I suggested that any character in the current seasons heroic rotation should always be available for free in terms of roster slot. If that character later leaves rotation, your character would just be suspended in the limbo until either that character returns to rotation or you bought a roster slot or deleted someone to make room for him. I know it's a messy implementation, but I think it's a reasonable compromise between player's desire to be able to get all the latest characters versus D3's intention of getting the extra roster slot money from players. This way, players will always have room for the latest characters but it'll eventually cost you if you want to keep everyone.

Vhailorx

Phantron wrote:

The speed the characters gets released doesn't matter as long as the format doesn't change. Since you only use 2 characters in the vast majority of PvP and 3 in PvE, anyone who isn't top 5 material is simply not relevent. As the pool of character gets bigger, it'd be naturally harder and harder for any new guy to crack the top 5 if one assumes there isn't some kind of P2W agenda (in that case every new character should break into top 5 consistently, which sure isn't the case). We're far past the threshold for total number of characters where we can expect a new, relatively balanced character to have a shot at cracking the top 5, consider the current top 5 is occupied by some very broken characters.

That said, I suggested that any character in the current seasons heroic rotation should always be available for free in terms of roster slot. If that character later leaves rotation, your character would just be suspended in the limbo until either that character returns to rotation or you bought a roster slot or deleted someone to make room for him. I know it's a messy implementation, but I think it's a reasonable compromise between player's desire to be able to get all the latest characters versus D3's intention of getting the extra roster slot money from players. This way, players will always have room for the latest characters but it'll eventually cost you if you want to keep everyone.

I disagree with you about pve Phantron. It's true that pvp is a more demanding mode, since the best characters have to be both powerful, fast, and not useless of defense. But many non-top 5 characters can be fully utilized in PVE. having three roster slots, along with having to fight crazily over-leveled opponents, and not caring about retaliation all mean that different pairings and team configurations are much more viable than in pvp.

I also disagree that the fact that new characters don't always crack the top 10 means that the speed of release is meaningless. By releasing so many characters, it is much harder for the community to properly evaluate them. By necessity, the community must turn its attention to the next newbie. And proper evaluation waits for months until more people have a close to maxed build.

NorthernPolarity

I don't think it's likely that a reduced schedule would result in increased community discussion over covers, simply because there are way too many characters in the pool right now. The problem we're currently facing is that it takes 3 months to fully cover someone before we can really use the character and evaluate them. Even if character releases slowed down, so many characters have to be rotated that i don't think this 3 month release schedule would really change: both because Demiurge wants to make the first 3 months exclusive to whales for financial reasons, and simply because the pool of characters is so big that they can easily rotate through it and not run out. In order to really get that discussion desired, the cover inflow rate needs to increase as a whole to get the desired effect.

Vhailorx

I agree that increasing the cover inflow rate would increase discussion, but I also think that having new characters be boosted in several early events would help. They don't have to be placement/prog rewards in each event, but a slower release schedule and more boosts for the new characters should give the community more opportunity to play with them, without a serious hit to revenue.

Mikaveus

Vhailorx wrote:

As is, the hideously slow 2*-->3* transition, combined with the amazing pace of character releases, risk making the game feel like a tedious chore (a highly addictive chore, thanks to the skinner box mechanics, but still a chore), rather than an enjoyable hobby.

Please, please slow down the rate of character releases. One new character a month/season would be ideal.

If you think that is slow, just wait till you experience the 3* to 4* transition!

Great points all around. This game should move towards being FUN again instead of a grinding headache. Trying to enjoy and build recent characters like Blade, Deadpool, and Mystique while busting your butt for a new character every two weeks just doesn't add up.

dkffiv

I'd honestly prefer 1 new character a month. New character PvE + PvPs are stressful due to the higher competition.

Newer players would benefit greatly from 1 new character a month:

-Less strain on roster slot costs
-More events featuring old characters, ones they probably have a few covers for
-Less competition on these older character's events (especially in PvE) allowing them to earn more covers
-Less required play time to rank highly in these events due to lower competition

Older players also benefit. In PvE's where I don't need any placement rewards I feel free to mess around in lightning rounds or simulator since I don't have to worry about health kit regeneration. Also lets me take breaks from the game without feeling I'm missing out on something.

loroku

NorthernPolarity wrote:

The problem we're currently facing is that it takes 3 months to fully cover someone before we can really use the character

Sorry, but: who is able to fully cover any new 3* character in 3 months? 'Cause it ain't >95% of the playerbase, I'm pretty sure. More like one+ years for most people, and the time it takes is getting longer... every two weeks.

Been playing for nearly 5 months now and my highest covered 3*s are only 8 covers. Of the "new" 3*s, my record is 6 covers... and I don't expect them to get any higher for months and months. I mean, seriously: who is going to have more than 6-8 Luke Cage covers in the next 3 months (other than whales and people who already had a huge roster)? And every time they release a new character it stretches out the time it takes to cover anyone even more.

Unknown

Well they getting close to the point were I put this game down for good. Currently its still possible to gain the 950 HP needed for each character slot ever two weeks but in 3 or 4 months time when its up around 1100 points that going to become much harder. If I was to just buy the with cash that is 13.99 * 1900 / 2900 or 9 pounds 16 pence a month which is basically the same price as my WoW subscription. I know which one going to get cut first.

Unknown

For the sake of argument let's just say all 4*s are deleted from the game since otherwise most argument for new character boils down to 'not better than X Force'. I'll put Black Panther and Loki for my PvP team. What new character can you possibly run that'll convince me to use someone else? This doesn't mean your new character isn't as good as mine. But let's say Luke Cage is as good as Black Panther (which I really doubt), why would I want to use him over Black Panther when I already have Black Panther? Maybe Blade is a different style of playing compared to Black Panther, but if they're about equally powerful again why would I want to suddenly stop what's been working to get another person that's roughly equally powerful? You can apply this to PvE too even with the same metric. Of course in reality the 4*s do exist and they tend to have a stranglehold on their spots in the respective formats.

For new characters to be explored, older characters must leave the pool completely. It is not sufficient if Luke Cage is as good as Black Panther, because if you already have Black Panther there's no need to have a duplicate of him and it's far more likely to have a maxed Black Panther since the former has been around a lot longer.

rednailz

Phantron wrote:

The speed the characters gets released doesn't matter as long as the format doesn't change. Since you only use 2 characters in the vast majority of PvP and 3 in PvE, anyone who isn't top 5 material is simply not relevent. As the pool of character gets bigger, it'd be naturally harder and harder for any new guy to crack the top 5 if one assumes there isn't some kind of P2W agenda (in that case every new character should break into top 5 consistently, which sure isn't the case). We're far past the threshold for total number of characters where we can expect a new, relatively balanced character to have a shot at cracking the top 5, consider the current top 5 is occupied by some very broken characters.

That said, I suggested that any character in the current seasons heroic rotation should always be available for free in terms of roster slot. If that character later leaves rotation, your character would just be suspended in the limbo until either that character returns to rotation or you bought a roster slot or deleted someone to make room for him. I know it's a messy implementation, but I think it's a reasonable compromise between player's desire to be able to get all the latest characters versus D3's intention of getting the extra roster slot money from players. This way, players will always have room for the latest characters but it'll eventually cost you if you want to keep everyone.

there is so much broken logic I nearly got a headache reading this.

rednailz

loroku wrote:

NorthernPolarity wrote:

The problem we're currently facing is that it takes 3 months to fully cover someone before we can really use the character

Sorry, but: who is able to fully cover any new 3* character in 3 months? 'Cause it ain't >95% of the playerbase, I'm pretty sure. More like one+ years for most people, and the time it takes is getting longer... every two weeks.

Been playing for nearly 5 months now and my highest covered 3*s are only 8 covers. Of the "new" 3*s, my record is 6 covers... and I don't expect them to get any higher for months and months. I mean, seriously: who is going to have more than 6-8 Luke Cage covers in the next 3 months (other than whales and people who already had a huge roster)? And every time they release a new character it stretches out the time it takes to cover anyone even more.

8 covers for a 3* in 5 months is about on pace or better then what I had starting nearly a year ago. Although I agree it's just going to take longer and longer for 2 - 3 * transition players to cover characters

rednailz

Phantron wrote:

For the sake of argument let's just say all 4*s are deleted from the game since otherwise most argument for new character boils down to 'not better than X Force'. I'll put Black Panther and Loki for my PvP team. What new character can you possibly run that'll convince me to use someone else? This doesn't mean your new character isn't as good as mine. But let's say Luke Cage is as good as Black Panther (which I really doubt), why would I want to use him over Black Panther when I already have Black Panther? Maybe Blade is a different style of playing compared to Black Panther, but if they're about equally powerful again why would I want to suddenly stop what's been working to get another person that's roughly equally powerful? You can apply this to PvE too even with the same metric. Of course in reality the 4*s do exist and they tend to have a stranglehold on their spots in the respective formats.

For new characters to be explored, older characters must leave the pool completely. It is not sufficient if Luke Cage is as good as Black Panther, because if you already have Black Panther there's no need to have a duplicate of him and it's far more likely to have a maxed Black Panther since the former has been around a lot longer.

Again...huh? Also cage is arguably as good or better than BP and I'm a BP fan. I explore new charecters ALL the time in pve. I use BP for tough bouts, and use my new guys for easier ones to have fun and enjoy then. Also if BP happens to be featured in a PVP I wont' be using him in PVE the same time unless I have to. New charecter's and being "better" have everything to do with how they align the team. If you are taking 4* out of the pvp conversation then what 3* you run completely depend on who is featured, depending on your roster. If blade is featured, I'm using patch and ldaken, not BP.

Phaserhawk

The schedule is not the problem. The problem is the limited resources.

Example. Each week you get 25,000 ISO and 500 HP from playing and rewards etc.


Lets say you have 50 characters That's 100,000 ISO and 2000 HP per month to spend on them. However in this example you now have 55 characters but the same amount of ISO and HP. In addition roster spots increase in value while your resources again are held in check.

To me, a freemium game needs to be that a player that puts an effort into the game can relatively get everything they need from month to month. Obviously paying gets you there faster but much like an limited resource, if the population using that resource grows faster than the resource can keep up with you get starvation, and that's what is going on, your characters are being starved to death because of population explosion and set amount of resources.

Now here is the conundrum. Higher population = $ to D3 and starving players also = $ or they quit.

The only way to fix the current situation is to stop coming out with characters or to fix your resource deficiency. I've said before ISO needs to be 3x what it is right now and HP needs to be at least doubled if not tripled as well.

What would the result be. Well you would see acceleration into full 2* roster and a quicker move into transitioning into 3*, which with more 4*'s coming actually makes sense. Roster slots are also a piece of the puzzle, if you cap them you at least free up some of your resources to further spend on characters, but again the rate is far outstripping the resources.

MarvelMan

My take is that if they slow release, speed up cover drops and use the extra time each month to deploy more actual PVE (like gauntlet) where you are free to use who you want people would enjoy the characters more.

Unknown

MarvelMan wrote:

My take is that if they slow release, speed up cover drops and use the extra time each month to deploy more actual PVE (like gauntlet) where you are free to use who you want people would enjoy the characters more.

Yes, your suggestions will greatly help the players. However, they probably won't be much help to devs' wallets. Unfortunately, because they absolutely refuse to explore alternative monetizing methods (like cosmetics, which have proven incredibly successful in other games), we are stuck with the current system.

I really don't know how it's possible to be so short-sighted, tbh. It's clear their business model has all but eliminated the middle class in this game. Meaning the bulk of their revenue comes from whales, a dying breed, and beginners, who are basically tricked into making their first purchases. No idea how this model is even close to sustainable, but I guess their casino token odds still haven't been changed after a year so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Kaazz

Adding my voice to the chorus of those asking for slower character release periods. PLEASE!!!

Vhailorx

Phantron wrote:

For the sake of argument let's just say all 4*s are deleted from the game since otherwise most argument for new character boils down to 'not better than X Force'. I'll put Black Panther and Loki for my PvP team. What new character can you possibly run that'll convince me to use someone else? This doesn't mean your new character isn't as good as mine. But let's say Luke Cage is as good as Black Panther (which I really doubt), why would I want to use him over Black Panther when I already have Black Panther? Maybe Blade is a different style of playing compared to Black Panther, but if they're about equally powerful again why would I want to suddenly stop what's been working to get another person that's roughly equally powerful? You can apply this to PvE too even with the same metric. Of course in reality the 4*s do exist and they tend to have a stranglehold on their spots in the respective formats.

For new characters to be explored, older characters must leave the pool completely. It is not sufficient if Luke Cage is as good as Black Panther, because if you already have Black Panther there's no need to have a duplicate of him and it's far more likely to have a maxed Black Panther since the former has been around a lot longer.

That seems like a pointless argument. It is arguably true that there is no need to play an equally good new character if you can win with what you already have. but that seems to miss the point. People LIKE different characters, either because of comic tastes, or because of playstyle, or because of pre-existing roster configurations. So one player might enjoy BP and keep playing him after Cage comes out, even if Cage is just as good. But other players may prefer Cage's style, or may have other characters maxed that pair better with Cage.

Also, I think that Cage is arguable as good as BP. he doesn't have an aoe nuke, but he also doesn't chew through health packs nearly as fast, and he can spike much higher on single target damage. And that's kind of my point. Good new characters are fun. Cage is one of the best new characters that has been introduced in a long time. But rather than celebrate the awesome new roster addition (and all the combo opportunities that have been created), the community has already been pushed on to two different new characters. So Cage is now going to languish for a few months until people starting getting enough covers to make him playable. I think it's a player-unfriendly system. The new characters can't possibly have a robust QA and playtesting schedule (given the rate of release), which explains why we get some awesome ones (Cage, blade), and some spectacular failures (Beast, Doc Oc).

simonsez

Vhailorx wrote:

The new characters can't possibly have a robust QA and playtesting schedule (given the rate of release), which explains why we get some awesome ones (Cage, blade), and some spectacular failures (Beast, Doc Oc).

I'm so grateful for the spectacular failures. Each one means I save 170k ISO

MarvelMan

gobstopper wrote:

MarvelMan wrote:

My take is that if they slow release, speed up cover drops and use the extra time each month to deploy more actual PVE (like gauntlet) where you are free to use who you want people would enjoy the characters more.

Yes, your suggestions will greatly help the players. However, they probably won't be much help to devs' wallets. Unfortunately, because they absolutely refuse to explore alternative monetizing methods (like cosmetics, which have proven incredibly successful in other games), we are stuck with the current system.

I really don't know how it's possible to be so short-sighted, tbh. It's clear their business model has all but eliminated the middle class in this game. Meaning the bulk of their revenue comes from whales, a dying breed, and beginners, who are basically tricked into making their first purchases. No idea how this model is even close to sustainable, but I guess their casino token odds still haven't been changed after a year so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I agree that any combination of those tweaks would cut profits on a daily/weekly/monthly basis....but if it keeps the game alive longer isnt that a win for the developers? They need to find a way to better monetize the beginners and middle class to ease some pressure off the whales. The shield cool downs cuts the HP whales can spend, and removes an aspect of the game play that they enjoyed likely driving some of them away and as you point out, they were a dying breed anyway. I just dont see why the cool downs were necessary, it was a mechanic exploited by a small group with little impact outside that group (if you werent shield hopping, you still wont be getting T10 now) that had to be quite profitable for d3. Seems very much like the release rate: not in their best interest.

Unknown

Keep them coming, more covers means more variation. Its not really the devs or the rest of the players fault if a few people can keep their Asperger's in check, if you don't want a cover don't go for it or play Pokémon.
I will say that more covers mean that the rewards will have to be fluid in how they are given out, said it before somewhere, a choice of reward would be a good solution as newer players like myself struggle to get the 4 star covers we need as the pool is a lot bigger than it was a few of months ago. I think that the limited iso and amount of covers will force the devs into doing something like this at some point anyway.