Commentary on F2P

atomzed

http://youtu.be/FwI0u9L4R8U

An Extra Credit commentary on F2P model. I thought it was insightful on how most F2P model is wrong by focusing on whales.

The question for MPQ is whether they are pursuing only whales. While the recent changes "appears" to be focused on helping the average player, the reward structure still favours the whales too much.

So I am undecided on how to make off D3.

fmftint

why is it wrong to prioritize PAYING customers?

atomzed

fmftint wrote:

why is it wrong to prioritize PAYING customers?

have you seen the video? If you have, you would note that it is not suggesting to cater for pure f2p players or to alienate paying average players.

It is saying that the model should not cater ONLY to super whales, players that spend hundreds or thousands of dollars a month, at the EXPENSE of average players, who may be paying 5 to 10 dollars a month.

Vankysher

fmftint wrote:

why is it wrong to prioritize PAYING customers?

How a developer implements certain features that only benefit PAYING customers and negatively affect non-paying customers, like they explain in the video, affects the sustainability of the game.
If the game is no longer fun for the non-paying or low-revenue players, the player-base will start to shrink.
And why be a whale for a game with little to no players? Hence the death spiral for the game company making the F2P game.

Unknown

fmftint wrote:

why is it wrong to prioritize PAYING customers?

IMO if they want to call it a game then we should all be on a level playing field. It's not a game if you can just pay to win. This is why I refer this MPQ as an entertainment service.

Unknown

I'm functionally free to play (I spent some money on roster slots early on, but haven't in close to a year). One thing I will say about this game: there is very little to spend money on unless you're going to be a whale. You can buy two things: ISO and HP. I've got a big HP stash (15-16k), I could use some ISO, but 1) it's a terrible deal and 2) I'm probably about 4-6 weeks away, at most, from not actually needing ISO much anymore.

If I wanted to whale it, I could buy all the covers I need, but they cost, quite frankly, a fortune. And if I did, what would I be playing for?

This game doesn't have much for the average player to buy, really. I guess I can see why they only focus on whales, since only the people just starting out and the people who want to finish tops in everything have any real reason to spend money. The rest of us don't really have anything to buy.

mohio

Ben Grimm wrote:

I'm functionally free to play (I spent some money on roster slots early on, but haven't in close to a year). One thing I will say about this game: there is very little to spend money on unless you're going to be a whale. You can buy two things: ISO and HP. I've got a big HP stash (15-16k), I could use some ISO, but 1) it's a terrible deal and 2) I'm probably about 4-6 weeks away, at most, from not actually needing ISO much anymore.

If I wanted to whale it, I could buy all the covers I need, but they cost, quite frankly, a fortune. And if I did, what would I be playing for?

This game doesn't have much for the average player to buy, really. I guess I can see why they only focus on whales, since only the people just starting out and the people who want to finish tops in everything have any real reason to spend money. The rest of us don't really have anything to buy.

I'm in your boat except I don't save up as much HP since I'm sure I've used the difference (I've got 5k) in more shields. Anyway, I think its a little shortsighted to ignore the 50+% that started since September. Not to mention some playing much longer but still in the 2* or transitioning phase. These guys want to shield cause they see it as the only way they can ensure even 1 cover at top 100 and they still probably need more slots since they surely don't have everyone and there's new characters every 2 weeks. Since they can't even break 600 they get one HP progression at 400 and 50 for placement (and another 25-50 for alliance let's say). That's barely breaking even and certainly not enough to save for new chars at 500+ per slot.

Now you could easily argue they're not doing it the "right" way, but I think a lot of players are stuck in this play cycle and hope that 5 or 10 bucks a month will help them get to the point we are at.

Unknown

mohio wrote:

Now you could easily argue they're not doing it the "right" way, but I think a lot of players are stuck in this play cycle and hope that 5 or 10 bucks a month will help them get to the point we are at.

I don't think that there's a right or wrong way to play the game. If Beast is someone's favorite character, and they want to use him in every match, and they have fun doing it, then I think they're playing the game right, at least right for them. But I get that I'm in a fairly privileged position, having started when I did.

Unknown

Focusing on the small time guys is pointless because this is the same issue as piracy. All the guys who say they'd have spent money on the game if the price is more reasonable are almost certainly lying and you don't want to alienate your whales over a bunch of liars. By the way, virtually every dev knows this, which is why they totally don't care when you ask them these things. There are well-known stats that back this up.

Now focusing on whales doesn't work in general because there are only so many of those guys to go around so unless your game is truly exceptional you'll eventually lose your whale to a better game.

The only way that works reliably to convert non paying guys is via some kind of social pressure. For example, Disney had a campaign in China where you can turn in proof of purchase for cool Disney merchandise and they even take the pirated ones as long as you told them where it came from, and of course people have no problem backstabbing the shady dealer that sold you the pirated stuff for cool Disney stuff. The gaming equivalent would be like how Candy Crush Saga is always bombarding you with message like "Your friend beat you score on stage 123!!!" However I'm not sure if that'd be any better if the game goes this way, and this tactic doesn't work in general either since there can only be so many games perceived as 'cool' at any given time. The F2P games in general are either a fad or they're something like MPQ where they haven't even figured out what their long term revenue model looks like.

I think for MPQ to do well in long term they need to convert to more like a subscription based game, but that'd mean actually having new content instead of just recycling old PvE events, and coming up with modes where having new characters can be considered as content. In the current 'featured + 2' PvP and you can't call someone who isn't at least a top 5 character real content because that person is never going to be used unless featured, but of course if every new character is top 5 territory that wouldn't even make sense.

Vhailorx

Phantron wrote:

Focusing on the small time guys is pointless because this is the same issue as piracy. All the guys who say they'd have spent money on the game if the price is more reasonable are almost certainly lying and you don't want to alienate your whales over a bunch of liars. By the way, virtually every dev knows this, which is why they totally don't care when you ask them these things. There are well-known stats that back this up.

I think it's a huge mistake to equate f2p players with pirates (and I also disagree with your characterization of piracy and, especially, the relationship of the dev community with piracy).

The point shouldn't be prioritizing f2p players (who obviously generate zero revenue) from whales, the point should be balancing game design decisions that keep whales interested with game design decisions that rewards f2p players and encourage them to become paying customers.

Catering just to whales and saying f2p players = pirates = liars so F-them is an idiotic business model because there is no opportunity for growth (even whales don't play forever). The game needs a constant influx of new paying customers to replace whales who retire (or go into bankruptcy).

MPQ's current model to generate paying customers seems to be to have a fun teaser stage for the 1*-2* transition that's fast and enjoyable. Then they dump a pretty large number of 3*/4* covers on you and challenge you throw some away or spend money (with the bundled roster slots, there is no opportunity to earn HP fast enough). then the 2*-->3* transition takes FOREVER and really ratchets up the pressure to pay even more.

On top of all of that is the whale endgame of 4* characters, and a new 3* every other week to keep HP purchasers invested.

Unfortunately, it seems to be a fairly successful model for everyone except those players that don't want to spend $100+ to accelerate their transition (a group of players that includes myself and likely a majority of the posters on these forums).

esoxnepa

MPQ can be tough to find purchases for non-whales who want to support the game. D3 has nothing "fun" to spend money on in this game.

Sure, roster slots give you a good value because they will exist as long as you are playing the game.

Is buying covers fun? I don't think so, because, for me anyway, earning the covers and progressing the game is the fun portion. Sure, I HATE the wall of 270 I hit. I've just transitioned to 4x166 (cap, GSBW, falcon, psy) because those are the covers I was able to earn first. What do I see from 500 on up? Too many of the same characters. This is because you can't afford to play a variety of character, or you get knocked so far out of the top 100, and no way to earn progression rewards.

Who knows if they will listen, but I'd suggested to D3 they need a place where PvP progression vs placement runs on different totals. A place where you can go challenge teams with unique compositions, try to win, and even if your team gets slaughtered, you get to keep climbing for a prize. Meanwhile, everyone get's a chance to play their full rosters trying to beat your oddball teams with their oddball teams. Shield Simulator should just be disconnected from the season scores, and become a place to "train." Take the nodes around it, offer different levels of difficulty of opponents, and just enjoy the heck out of the wins, loses, and retaliations. (This really only makes any money because it will give you a reason to have many roster slots.)

"Packs" also need a rework. I can't tell you how many packs of CCGs I've bought because I might pull something useful, and knew I would get a rare, some uncommons, and come commons. What is a Heroic 10 pack if you convert to $$ today, like $10-$20? And how many heroic 10 packs have we opened with all 2*s. That alone keeps me from every buying them, even as someone who wants to support the game.

Me, I don't mind Whales and Super Whales. Hell, I'd give them some real world rewards to play for like a tour of the studios, a signed comic, or meeting an artist.

I want to see the game fun for everyone.

Unknown

The game has plenty of goals to be met without even worrying about 3* and 4*. Having a strong lvl 94 roster and maxing out all the two stars on your roster should always be your first goal. Once you have a strong lvl 94 roster you can compete well in PvE and earn covers much easier than the people with a semi-developed roster. HP and ISO are both far more available than they were and the same could be said for 3* covers.

I remember when I was rocking all 2*'s and honestly I was having fun climbing the ranks. I played smart and spent all my HP on slots because I knew no matter how many 3*'s I had it would be a long time til I had the ISO to level them to an efficient strength. If you just take a step back from wanting instant gratification and realize that this game is built for long term players you'll see that your goals of having a strong roster can still be met without paying a dime. It helps if you're willing to open your wallet because having more slots means more playability and the devs get the money to keep a guy on staff to toil over different changes, bug fixes, new characters and ways to create a balanced game.

Unknown

The game needs more than nebulous goals like 'leveling up a 3* that you'll probably never use unless he's featured'. Sure, some people can get by with that kind of goal but it doesn't really work in general. The game's format is too simplistic so far. You can't even have a story like, 'Remember that time there was the node you have to use Bagman? Well my maxed Bagman came in handy there!' If there's a random select mode or some kind of reverse of survival nodes (you get more than 3 guys to fight some way overpowered boss, perhaps) it's much easier to have progress that isn't solely tied to being first, but we don't have such things.

babinro

atomzed wrote:

fmftint wrote:

why is it wrong to prioritize PAYING customers?

have you seen the video? If you have, you would note that it is not suggesting to cater for pure f2p players or to alienate paying average players.

It is saying that the model should not cater ONLY to super whales, players that spend hundreds or thousands of dollars a month, at the EXPENSE of average players, who may be paying 5 to 10 dollars a month.

Couple of things:
1) This is just a video of informed passionate gamer opinions about the F2P industry. It's opinion, not fact. Some tactics work for some games and others work for other games. It's unfair to take a blanket concept and just say...'this is how we should do things for all free to play games, period'.

2) Unless I've misunderstood the implications of your post...you seem to be implying that D3 is following the supposedly negative unsustainable model as opposed to the positive ones. My response will assume that you feel they are catering to whales at the expense of free to play people. If I'm wrong, I apologize.

On topic:
An example of a successful F2P game they provided that I have a LOT of experience with as well was Hearthstone. Here they talk about the game being accessible to F2P and whales. Whales can pay to progress quicker and F2P get a healthy flood of rewards over time. Both can find success. I agree with this about Hearthstone. I can also say that this is true with MPQ.

- Whales in Hearthstone can complete the GvG expansion set in days and have a devastating competitive advantage in ranked play for a couple months easily allowing them to access the upper ranks of play (rank 5-Legendary for example).
- Whales in MPQ can spend money on HP to win rewards more quickly. They'll easily be able to secure top 10 in pvps

- F2P gamers in Hearthstone can grind casual and ranked to earn gold and wins leading to steady weekly progression. It could take them months to find a single legendary card and easily several months to get the dust needed to craft one. Meanwhile the game has dozens and dozens of powerful legendary cards constantly enticing progression.
- F2P gamers in MPQ can grind PvE's to realistically earn 1, 2 or more *** covers. In PvP they can typically earn 1 ***. Meanwhile the game has dozens and dozens of characters and it will take them months to fully cover a 3 star. Even longer to cover a 4 star.

See the similarities?

My prior alliance had more than one free to play player who had successfully reached 4 star tier play. They had been playing this game for around a year or more but they still competed on the same level as me (someone whose spent $400.00 on the game and is now in 4 star tier play).

The pay to win pressures and the pace at which you progress and succeed in this game are very much on par with a 'successful' F2P illustration like Hearthstone. Endgame success requires many many months of dedication and you'll never keep up with the new content in either of these games when playing for free.

I guess what I'm saying is that while I wouldn't call MPQ a shining example of F2P done right...they are also not example of fail F2P only catering to whales at the expense of beginners.

The only MAJOR difference between these games is that MPQ has purchase options that DON'T deliver fun where Hearthstones are all fun. It's fun to open packs with dust that eventually guarantee cards you don't have. Meanwhile MPQ's 'cover packs' have no such guarantee. In addition MPQ limits your roster behind a pay wall. There is nothing FUN about spending $100.00 on HP and using 80% of the purchase to expand your roster space. Maybe that's the entire problem though.

Thank you for joining me in yet another episode of 'babinro thinks aloud and expresses his unprocessed thoughts in a long forum response' Good night

Unknown

Hearthstone's success is more because CCG somehow sets the bar for its audience even lower than the average F2P. If Yugioh can be a successful CCG (and it is) then clearly it's not very hard to top that, especially in light of the fact that MTG apparently doesn't care about anyone who spends less than $100 so you don't have to worry about the biggest guy on the genre. The only take away from Hearthstone I have is that a mode that isn't built on pre-existing strength like Arena is a very good idea, though that's hardly rocket science. MTG would've been pretty boring if every game is Vintage and that's basically how MPQ is played, and just like winning on the first turn in Vintage gets old after a while so is using X Force + whoever in MPQ. MPQ probably has a lot more in common with a CCG than the typical F2P but for some reason MPQ makers failed to pick up that virtually every successful CCG finds a way to restrict roster strength because it's absolutely necessary for the long term success. You don't want X Force or Ancestral Recall to be all that there is and ever will be in your game.

atomzed

babinro wrote:

Couple of things:
1) This is just a video of informed passionate gamer opinions about the F2P industry. It's opinion, not fact. Some tactics work for some games and others work for other games. It's unfair to take a blanket concept and just say...'this is how we should do things for all free to play games, period'.

2) Unless I've misunderstood the implications of your post...you seem to be implying that D3 is following the supposedly negative unsustainable model as opposed to the positive ones. My response will assume that you feel they are catering to whales at the expense of free to play people. If I'm wrong, I apologize.

<<sniped>>

The only MAJOR difference between these games is that MPQ has purchase options that DON'T deliver fun where Hearthstones are all fun. It's fun to open packs with dust that eventually guarantee cards you don't have. Meanwhile MPQ's 'cover packs' have no such guarantee. In addition MPQ limits your roster behind a pay wall. There is nothing FUN about spending $100.00 on HP and using 80% of the purchase to expand your roster space. Maybe that's the entire problem though.

Thank you for joining me in yet another episode of 'babinro thinks aloud and expresses his unprocessed thoughts in a long forum response' Good night

Thanks for the civilised response.

I am undecided whether MPQ is following an non sustainable f2p model. That is the reason why I created the thread for discussion.

On one hand, I see that D3 is *trying* hard to cater to the masses through various tweaks. The recent pve refresh rate increase is one of their efforts. Allowing all alliance to have 20 free slots is another.

On the other hand, the continual reduction of the packs %, from packs with guarantee featured hero, to one that gives a mere 6%, seems to imply that D3 wants the players to buy the covers outright. Each 3* cover costs about 10 dollars. Such a price point is too high for the average player.

Similarly, the continual increment of the rosters slots is another indication that D3 wants their players to pay $10 dollars per transaction, as the roster cost eventually spiral to a very high level.

Like what the video said, a better business model is one that entice players to spend a few dollars per month. $10 dollars per month seems a bit too high...

Despite my complaints, I do see that mpq does not hide itself behind a pay wall as it is possible (but difficult) to be a f2p competitive player.

You make a good case of comparing MPQ to Hearthtstone. Thanks for the interesting insights!

I really hope that MPQ continues to be successful, as this is one game that suits my schedule.

Unknown

The majority of changes seem to be catered towards making the game more approachable for new $ rather than whales. The big spenders already invested so much so D3 probably isn't worried whales will walk away from their sunk cost of enjoyment. The GOOD F2P games let you get a perceived maximum experience without the need to play but an easier time competing or achieving some goal if you do pay. No good F2P game will give the spenders an insurmountable advantage by spending more.

That leads to the question of goals in the game. What's the goal of MPQ? Is there something people strive for? Season points? Event Points? Maximizing all the covers?

Most 'RPG' players consider completionism the only goal. Younger Xbox FPS style players might look at meta-scores as a goal. Really old arcade players might even enjoy the temporary thrill of having the high score on the box. MPQ however doesn't really have a clear goal to strive for. Each event is so similar to the previous and the next that you feel like there's a rinse and repeat grind every week.

This might sound extremely flat and stupid but I know people get hooked on it like a cheap drug - How about achievements in game? Achievement points for doing different things - meta and not, one of which could be - winning a pvp event, achieving 1300 points in an event etc. Something that sticks. I know apple and android already have the system built in for games who want to do it and other than brainstorming interesting ideas like beating a node using yelena bagman and beast.

for this game to sustain itself, I think it needs something like this. I remember back when warcraft implemented Achievements and at first they seemed ridiculous, - like who would waste their time so the game would tell you that you achieved some wacky goal. Well people tried these things and it was a really fun direction.

Another F2P reason to spend money is to make playing more enjoyable. I have several free games where you can unlock something for a small one-time fee that makes the game more enjoyable. How about selling unlimited roster slots for a flat fee? How about selling an offline 'dungeon or pve event' that resets every week that can be done for node awards.

The approach needs to come from the direction of what would be fun for our player base, not how can we monetize our player base because the money will come if the fun is there.

Unknown

Been retired since the beginning of season IX.

Probably spent ~$40 bucks on a little less than a year of MPQ so not what I would call a big spender. I put money down when I felt like there was something worth the investment on the line. I bought alliance roster slots back in the day because that is what it took to keep a competitive alliance going. I bought some HP to try to shield hop my way to a Blue 4-Thor, and failed miserably. For the amount I was willing to spend there was no options that would make a difference in the long term. I could have bought more covers but I wanted to earn those. I could have bought more shields but while some enjoy the thrill of it, shield hopping did nothing but stress me out.

Since x-force was reworked the game felt more and more pay to progress with each new change, and I had no desire to be in a race to see who could spend more nor compete against those doing so.

So I saw the writing on the wall and quit playing. Still visit the forums occasionally to see what is going on but I know what my in game goals were and I knew what combination of time effort and spending it would take to reach those goals and my life does not have room for that. There is no progress slowly but eventually earn all the things you want, there is only compete hard and try for the shinys you want or stop wanting. I chose the latter and have seen little evidence that I made a poor decision.

Unknown

Achievements are a bad idea in general because most games fall into the trap of 'achievement = content'. That is it's perfectly fine to have an achievement like 'put at least 42 Force Bubbles on the board' and see where people go with it, but you can't make it like say 'get 500 HP for this achievement' because that'd just lead to people finding some 395 goon only nodes over and over again. Or you can get a 'we're going to run Heroic Jugg again but we also added some new achievements that involves getting Headbutted many times!' It's a very common trap to fall into so I'd rather they not do it. Of course achievements can be done correctly but the game currently needs content far more than the fluff.