Rebalance 1* and 2*

dkffiv

This is mostly to address PvE issues but is probably useful for the boosted PvP events.

Juggernaut, (2/3*) Daken, Ragnarok and Ares should have their base (level 1/15/40) ability damage doubled but cut their scaling in half. Net change would be at low levels they would deal more damage than they currently do, at max level they would do the same and when scaled way past their intended cap the damage would be much lower.

Currently, it not fun trying to get 3 abilities off to down Juggernaut before he gathers 6 red AP and 1 shots one of your characters. If it took 12 red or 2x 6 to generate the same amount of damage it would be a lot more balanced. Next time BoP comes around I'll check but I'm pretty sure no other 2* comes close to dealing as much damage as Ares except maybe Storm, but she has a third his HP and her ability costs more than all three of Ares'.

Arondite

Don't be silly. If you're having problems with juggernaut in balance of power and combined Arms, just build a damn juggernaut. It'll take you like, 1 pvp to cover him out lol.

simonsez

Arondite wrote:

If you're having problems with juggernaut in balance of power and combined Arms, just build a damn juggernaut.

He said this was to mostly address PvE issues. Last I checked, BoP and CA were PvP.

And I agree with him... 6 red AP shouldn't one-shot your characters.

dkffiv

Arondite wrote:

Don't be silly. If you're having problems with juggernaut in balance of power and combined Arms, just build a damn juggernaut. It'll take you like, 1 pvp to cover him out lol.

The fact that everyone is clamoring to make multiple juggernauts for certain PvP events is a clear indication that he is not balanced. Besides maybe Venom, no other 1* sees serious usage in those events.

For level 40 comparisons:

Headbutt: 1100 damage
Jugg: 3520 hp

Black Widow: 1540 hp. 6 red AP to do 71.4% of BW life, you lose 15.6%.

Venom: 2640 hp. 41.6% hp for 15.6%. Venom's black costs twice as much and only deals 23.4% of Juggs life.

Scaling appears to be almost linear. Lvl 208 jugg has 16960 life and does 5300 damage. Slightly less than 5x the health and damage for 5x the levels. A level 196 blade has 7978 life so against a roughly equal level mid tier hp char 6 red AP does 66% of their life. A 196 deadpool red gets capped at 3843 and it's effectiveness is reduced when the target has less than 5800 health.

Barring a 40% or so reduction in damage when he is hyper scaled, I wouldn't mind seeing headbutt changed to 50% of targets current hp for 25% of juggs with damage caps put in place like deadpool's

*Level 201 jugg 6 red deals 5125 damage, venom 12 black deals 3843.
A level 256 3* human torch does 5166 for similar costs but is 25% higher level and has slightly more than half his hp even with the extra levels. The drawback of headbutt isn't a drawback when your hp pool is that much larger than everyone else's.

In a one on one 201 Jugg vs 256 HT duel, 12 red for jugg leaves jugg with 11000 life and HT dead. 14 red for HT and jugg is at around 6k life. It would take 20 red and some match damage to down Jugg with a 50 level advantage and torch is supposed to be the assassin while jugg is supposed to be the tank.

Unknown

What you guys think they just put daken ares juggs at the end nodes for no reason? They know they scale crazily. They're not asking for a way to balance those nodes.

dkffiv

I'm under the impression that 2* Daken's blue tile requirement is set lower than 3* just so that the backlash effect never occurs against super scaled AI opponents.

In terms of fixing Daken I was thinking the following:

-Increase base blue damage / reduce scaling when past intended maximum level.

-Increase base purple strike tile damage / reduce scaling when past intended maximum level. Increase damage at intended maximum level by 20%

Heat & Healing for both 2 and 3*:

(PASSIVE) Daken's healing factor allows himself to recover 3% of his health every turn if there are more than 8 blue tiles. If there are fewer than 9 blue tiles, the terrible drug "Heat" kicks in, and he loses 3% of his health instead.

Level Upgrades:
Level 2: Heals 5% per turn. (4% for 2*)
Level 3: 8 tiles to avoid "Heat".
Level 4: Heals 7% per turn. (5% for 2*)
Level 5: 7 tiles to avoid "Heat".

The lower % for 2* is implemented for hyper scaling I'm pretty sure (its currently set lower for 2* vs. 3*). A more graceful solution would be calculating what 7% is for the intended level cap and having it heal a flat amount like Patch and reduce scaling when past level cap. Consequence would be healing is more effective when under level cap which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

With 5 black covers Daken would take 3% damage with 6 or less blue tiles on the board, nothing would happen with 7-8, and heal with 9 or more. Actively denying blue would actually have an affect on him and would give 2* players an easier time dealing with 3* Daken if they went for blue. The 20% better strike tiles is compensation for the healing nerf, offensive numbers may need to be adjusted if its not enough.

ErikPeter

Fixing Daken--that is, making him less than ultra-frustrating to play against--would be as simple as making Chemical Reaction cost 7. I hate, hate, hate getting hit for 2k damage on the third round of a fight, because he got some blue in a 4-match after I matched greens. It's just too cheap. Converting strikes is designed as a drawback, but it just makes the power that much more efficient at burst damage. The devs are probably fine with this because it increases heal pack use but it doesn't feel fair to play against.

Juggs is a tougher nut to crack; putting Headbutt at 7 AP would make it much, much more reasonable--but probably they just need to make a more balanced 3* Juggernaut who fills in for him on the high-level nodes. User AaronTheLuigi suggested a pretty good one here.

One less drastic change they could make Jugg's damage scale with his remaining HP, so if he's almost dead, he does about half damage. He would still dish out terrible hits early on and suck to fight with a hammer lieutenant, but at least those late headbutts when he was a turn away from death anyways wouldn't feel so aggravating. How about this:

Headbutt 6 AP (5 ranks)
Juggernaut slams head-first into the enemy, dealing 550 damage to himself and the target. He deals additional damage to the target proportional to his current health (up to 550 at full health).

If that weakens him too fast, maybe "(up to 550 at 75% or more health)" would be more consistent.

KrazyKeylime

i have him slot for these events specifically. the only one on my roster. i am fine leaving it as is makes the lower levels able to play against the higher players which is the intent of these extra post season games lower level players are more likely to have him higher level players need to sacrifice to get him which they easily can if they wanted they just need covers and he pops out like candy they don't even need to invest iso. it is nice to let the little guys feel powerful every once in a while

Edit: had to drop jugg from roster pulled a 4* thor from a standard and roster slots are expensive

dkffiv

KrazyKeylime wrote:

i have him slot for these events specifically. the only one on my roster. i am fine leaving it as is makes the lower levels able to play against the higher players which is the intent of these extra post season games lower level players are more likely to have him higher level players need to sacrifice to get him which they easily can if they wanted they just need covers and he pops out like candy they don't even need to invest iso. it is nice to let the little guys feel powerful every once in a while

Edit: had to drop jugg from roster pulled a 4* thor from a standard and roster slots are expensive

Leaving it as is means you enjoy getting 1 shot when the AI manages to gather 6 red AP. At this point if they flat out doubled the damage for double the AP cost it would be a lot more tolerable.

Pwuz_

dkffiv wrote:

KrazyKeylime wrote:

i have him slot for these events specifically. the only one on my roster. i am fine leaving it as is makes the lower levels able to play against the higher players which is the intent of these extra post season games lower level players are more likely to have him higher level players need to sacrifice to get him which they easily can if they wanted they just need covers and he pops out like candy they don't even need to invest iso. it is nice to let the little guys feel powerful every once in a while

Edit: had to drop jugg from roster pulled a 4* thor from a standard and roster slots are expensive

Leaving it as is means you enjoy getting 1 shot when the AI manages to gather 6 red AP. At this point if they flat out doubled the damage for double the AP cost it would be a lot more tolerable.

Part of the game is AP denial. If you fear Juggs Headbutt that much, perhaps you should be denying him Red. Yes, I know you can't deny all Red under all circumstances, but that's why you target bigger threats like Juggs 1st rather than just the order the game throws them at you.

Honestly, it doesn't bother me. If he does get enough Red to cast Headbutt, you typically have some choice of what to do about it. Sure AP stealing would be preferred, but you can also stun him (especially useful when he's paired with Rags or a goon using Red since the AI doesn't mind squandering it's resources.) As a last ditch effort, pick his target. Sure it sucks to lose a character (or have Juggs nearly kill one of your beefer meat shields), but if you have the AP to cast a game ending ability (Sniper Rifle, Rage of the Panther, Wind Storm, etc.) as long as that character survives, you win.

It's part of the challenge and strategy of playing.

AaronTheLuigi

Most of the frustration (for me at least; I can't speak for anyone else) is fighting or teams who have higher levels than the maximum you can bring your / characters to. Please stop teasing me with what a triple-digit leveled Ares is capable of when you know mine is capped at ninety-four outside of him being powered up

These characters aren't designed to go beyond 40/94 in most situations. Juggernaut especially is a stressful case. He has two cheap, but powerful abilities at max covers, and if everyone in the game is scaled to the same level, Juggernaut has the highest health pool (Even surpassing Devil Dinosaur). I'd assume Juggs and Ragnarok are seen as mini-bosses in the eyes of the developers. They have cheap, often chainable, powers, making AP denial near-improbable. In some cases one random / cascade is enough to ruin your day. I do believe, however, Juggernaut needs some sort of rebalancing. Even if you're using to fight , Juggs is fully capable of downing/severely injuring anyone with 12 . The concept most serious players keep a Lv.1 fully covered Juggs just for Balance of Power/Combined Arms speaks volumes about his power scaled up. The other issue is goon-feeding, or the masochistic nodes like in the Hulk event (I think?) where Juggs/Rags get green feeders. Those nodes are itsy bity tiny kitties. (This argument can be applied to other nodes, like Mystique + Iso-8 Mutants, or A-Wolverine + The Hand. That is another topic for another thread, however.)

All this being said, I'd wager it is more an issue with the scaling. These characters aren't nearly as scary in normal PvP, where there is a limit to their power and no chance of passive AP generation. I'll be one of the first to admit I hate fighting these nodes, but Galactus consume me if they don't give me a glorious sensation upon defeating them. Now if the game would kindly stop handing out 20 Iso-8 after my third clear of these nodes we'd have more of an understanding...

(Special shoutout and thanks to ErikPeter for linking my Juggernaut idea!)

Unknown

AaronTheLuigi wrote:

Most of the frustration (for me at least; I can't speak for anyone else) is fighting or teams who have higher levels than the maximum you can bring your / characters to. Please stop teasing me with what a triple-digit leveled Ares is capable of when you know mine is capped at ninety-four outside of him being powered up

These characters aren't designed to go beyond 40/94 in most situations. Juggernaut especially is a stressful case. He has two cheap, but powerful abilities at max covers, and if everyone in the game is scaled to the same level, Juggernaut has the highest health pool (Even surpassing Devil Dinosaur). I'd assume Juggs and Ragnarok are seen as mini-bosses in the eyes of the developers. They have cheap, often chainable, powers, making AP denial near-improbable. In some cases one random / cascade is enough to ruin your day. I do believe, however, Juggernaut needs some sort of rebalancing. Even if you're using to fight , Juggs is fully capable of downing/severely injuring anyone with 12 . The concept most serious players keep a Lv.1 fully covered Juggs just for Balance of Power/Combined Arms speaks volumes about his power scaled up. The other issue is goon-feeding, or the masochistic nodes like in the Hulk event (I think?) where Juggs/Rags get green feeders. Those nodes are itsy bity tiny kitties. (This argument can be applied to other nodes, like Mystique + Iso-8 Mutants, or A-Wolverine + The Hand. That is another topic for another thread, however.)

All this being said, I'd wager it is more an issue with the scaling. These characters aren't nearly as scary in normal PvP, where there is a limit to their power and no chance of passive AP generation. I'll be one of the first to admit I hate fighting these nodes, but Galactus consume me if they don't give me a glorious sensation upon defeating them. Now if the game would kindly stop handing out 20 Iso-8 after my third clear of these nodes we'd have more of an understanding...

(Special shoutout and thanks to ErikPeter for linking my Juggernaut idea!)

I do think Juggernaut and Ragnarok were designed to be a boss type character but the implementation is very bad. For one thing, they shouldn't even be playable if they're meant to be a boss character. You can just make an additional version for their 'boss' stats, like how Devil Dino is Giant Reptile (player) and Classic (AI's uber version). Gorgon is a good example of a well designed boss character, at least I'm assuming we're never meant to play him with his current stats, since having Thor level HP and 4.5X crit modifier has never happened out of playable characters (only characters in the lowest HP class can have a 4.5X crit mod). For that matter, there should be more non playable versions of characters both for variety and balance, and by balance this goes both ways. Yelena is not remotely challenging so there should be a stronger version of AI only Yelena. Well, or they can just buff Yelena, but if they want to be really, really sure, then this lets you not have to worry about any impact to playable characters. Daken and Ares can probably use a small nerf for their unique AI playable version, while Venom and Moonstone both can use a boost.

KrazyKeylime

AP denial is mentioned in the 1st fight against jugg in the prologue

over_clocked

Phantron wrote:

since having Thor level HP and 4.5X crit modifier has never happened out of playable characters (only characters in the lowest HP class can have a 4.5X crit mod)

Huh? Colossus (10200), Deadpool and Blade (6800), Captain Marvel (8500) all have a 4,5x crit multiplier.

dkffiv

Pwuz_ wrote:

Part of the game is AP denial. If you fear Juggs Headbutt that much, perhaps you should be denying him Red. Yes, I know you can't deny all Red under all circumstances, but that's why you target bigger threats like Juggs 1st rather than just the order the game throws them at you.

Honestly, it doesn't bother me. If he does get enough Red to cast Headbutt, you typically have some choice of what to do about it. Sure AP stealing would be preferred, but you can also stun him (especially useful when he's paired with Rags or a goon using Red since the AI doesn't mind squandering it's resources.) As a last ditch effort, pick his target. Sure it sucks to lose a character (or have Juggs nearly kill one of your beefer meat shields), but if you have the AP to cast a game ending ability (Sniper Rifle, Rage of the Panther, Wind Storm, etc.) as long as that character survives, you win.

It's part of the challenge and strategy of playing.

My guess is you've never played against a (200+?) Juggs. At 300+ all of those abilities you listed will take off less than a quarter of Jugg's health (RotP will more than likely end up getting you killed). The only game ending ability against Jugg is a 4hor blue/red combo.

The problem with the characters that I mentioned needing rebalancing is that they can't be AP denied. If the move you made gives them a match or they get an autofill combo you're dead. When you're facing 3x 300+ enemies with 166's and 270's, if one of your characters dies it usually means your entire team dies due to losing color coverage or utility.

The only way to reliably beat him is to make sure he never gets a turn. They nerfed cmags because they thought that wasn't fun so the only other option is the newest incarnation with mmags and mystique. 4hor has a decent shot against them since she has so much hp but people without a maxed Goddess are out of luck. Xforce tends to get stomped in those match ups.

Pwuz_

I've faced down plenty of High level Juggs, including those in the Gauntlet.

The turn I have enough AP saved up to fire those powerful abilities is usually the same turn they will finish off Juggernaut since I've been focusing on him as he is usually the highest threat in the group.

IF you've been choosing to focus your attacks on another target, you only have your self to blame. And AGAIN I will bring up my point that AP Denial and other less dangerous outlets for Red AP typically can make those fights manageable.

Unknown

locked wrote:

Phantron wrote:

since having Thor level HP and 4.5X crit modifier has never happened out of playable characters (only characters in the lowest HP class can have a 4.5X crit mod)

Huh? Colossus (10200), Deadpool and Blade (6800), Captain Marvel (8500) all have a 4,5x crit multiplier.

Hmmm, all this time I thought there's a reason why The Hood, Bullseye, and Hawkeye (1* and 2*) have 4.5X. Apparently not.

over_clocked

Pwuz_ wrote:

I've faced down plenty of High level Juggs, including those in the Gauntlet.

The turn I have enough AP saved up to fire those powerful abilities is usually the same turn they will finish off Juggernaut since I've been focusing on him as he is usually the highest threat in the group.

IF you've been choosing to focus your attacks on another target, you only have your self to blame. And AGAIN I will bring up my point that AP Denial and other less dangerous outlets for Red AP typically can make those fights manageable.

What is the highest level you had to fight Juggernaut? Any level 395s there?

Pwuz_

locked wrote:

Pwuz_ wrote:

I've faced down plenty of High level Juggs, including those in the Gauntlet.

The turn I have enough AP saved up to fire those powerful abilities is usually the same turn they will finish off Juggernaut since I've been focusing on him as he is usually the highest threat in the group.

IF you've been choosing to focus your attacks on another target, you only have your self to blame. And AGAIN I will bring up my point that AP Denial and other less dangerous outlets for Red AP typically can make those fights manageable.

What is the highest level you had to fight Juggernaut? Any level 395s there?

Honestly, I can't recall the highest I've seen. When his level reaches a point that a single Headbutt will down an uninjured 166 Hulk, it really it doesn't matter what level it is. The name of the game is always AP denial and Stuns up the wazoo till you can knock him out. Spiderman is a fine choice for the Stuns as his are cheap and get better with a few Web tiles on the board (which are often helped by Venom who is a favorite partner for Juggs.)