3-4* Transtion......easier? Discuss...

orbitalint

tanis3303 wrote:

No, you're right, and it's kind of my point. There ISN'T really a reason for me to play right now. I'm not getting the 1300 cover, so I'm not growing my roster, there's no point in leveling more 3*s because the future of the game seems to be 4*s, so why jack up my PvE scaling anymore than it already is? Seems like a friggin TERRIBLE business plan to me: "Hey you! Over there, playing our game. Stop it. Stop playing."

I feel you. I actually soft-capped my guys at 135 a long time ago to limit the kind of pain you talk about. Saves on ISO, keeps PVE scaling down and I can punch my way to top 25 of most any PVP and take down an XF no problem (maxed XF/4hor is still out of my reach). I have a 9 cover XF and 5 cover 4hor and don't expect to ever finish them off...

I think old school shield hopping accelerated everything and D3 is still trying to figure out how to do this 4* transition. Had this over-abundance of 4* availability not been an issue, I highly doubt Elektra would have ever been a 4*...Hopping put out too many 4* covers and the line between the haves and have nots is abundantly clear. Unfortunately, the haves also have little incentive to play anymore - probably cutting off on some of their whale income. They cut off the tap to 4*'s with the shield changes to prevent everyone with a wallet and the will from finishing the end game but haven't addressed that there is group of people that have nothing to play for.

Unknown

I can certainly reach Thor covers if I tried though I'm probably just going to buy her covers outright once I have enough HP(need 2500 more) and I'm not sure what I'm playing for in terms of progress whether Thor is maxed or not. Perhaps it'd be a better question to ask what is the end game because even if they just handed out a complimentary 5/3/5 Thor to everyone people will still soon be asking exactly the same question again.

TheViceroy

They should get rid of the scaling PVE based on your roster. It makes no sense at all.
The "challenge" that they claim it adds is counter-intuitive, especially because a player can scale themsevles out of PVE and never know it. This is never told to the player that
It also flies in the face of them wanting "roster diversity". If I build up a diverse roster, it makes the game harder.
You know the system is broken when leveling a character is detrimental to gameplay. As was said in one of these replies, D3 is basically saying "stop playing our game".

I have about 8 or so max 3 stars, several of them top-tier characters like Hood, Lazy Thor, & Patch, and over 100K ISO. I'm purposefully not spending any of it because of this reason alone, as well as being unable to get the character I want cause he's vaulted (Lazy Daken). Going by the helpful google doc someone on the forum made a while ago, I have fully leveled about 45% of the entire game's 3 star roster. I fear any more and I will start to really see scaling side-effects in PVE.

I have never gotten a 1300 progression reward ever. I think my highest PVP score ever was barely 800, and that was a long while ago. By the time my roster was decent enough to even think about attempting it, Xforce got fixed and then 4hor was released. My Xforce is a pathetic 1 3 5 175-ish, so I have no chance to beat those teams. Now with the shield limits, even if they lowered the 4 star hero progression to 1000 or even 800, I still wouldn't be able to get it without spending a ton of HC.
I prefer PVE anyway because at least I won't lose a ton of progress to retaliations and feel like I'm working towards something I can more or less obtain without the PVP stress. Sure it can get repetitive, but I know that most PVE's I can get the progression 3 star hero, as well as at least 1 cover of the hero featured as the top 100 reward.

It's sad, but getting 1-2 3 star covers, several event-based token packs (which rarely give me a 3 star hero), and lots of ISO is the only dependable way I can feel I can advance without the frustration that is PVP.
Sure I can get top 100 fairly easily, but most times that specific cover in the 100 reward tier I don't need, so I'm only really playing for a bit of HC and ISO.
Neither of these scenarios solve the 4 star transition problem for me.

They better have something in mind to ease this pain, because I am effectively stalled in 4 star progression.
An idea I posted in the Suggestions forum would go a long way in addressing this:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=21313&start=20#p275018

FierceKiwi

The Viceroy wrote:

I have about 8 or so max 3 stars, several of them top-tier characters like Hood, Lazy Thor, & Patch, and over 100K ISO. I'm purposefully not spending any of it because of this reason alone, as well as being unable to get the character I want cause he's vaulted (Lazy Daken). Going by the helpful google doc someone on the forum made a while ago, I have fully leveled about 45% of the entire game's 3 star roster. I fear any more and I will start to really see scaling side-effects in PVE.

I've got 16 Maxed (half) and another 14 100+ and poor Beast and Loki at 40/43. More maxed 3*s doesn't mess with scaling what hurts is the first one especially if the first one isn't top tier.

TheViceroy

FierceKiwi wrote:

I've got 16 Maxed (half) and another 14 100+ and poor Beast and Loki at 40/43. More maxed 3*s doesn't mess with scaling what hurts is the first one especially if the first one isn't top tier.

So again, confusion with how scaling works in this game.
I assumed it got worse and worse as you maxed multiple 3 stars, especially when you have more than 10+ max 3 stars.

rixmith

As far as I can tell PvE scaling is based on your highest level character. I have my 5/3/2 X-Force at level 166 and won't move him up until I can get at lest 3 or 4 useful 4*'s progressing together.

TheViceroy

rixmith wrote:

As far as I can tell PvE scaling is based on your highest level character. I have my 5/3/2 X-Force at level 166 and won't move him up until I can get at lest 3 or 4 useful 4*'s progressing together.

So I done effed up leveling my 1 3 5 XForce to level 175?
If so, that is inbred stupid to punish players like that with no warning. In most games, there are no negative side effects to leveling up your characters. The only one I can think of are some of the Elder Scroll games, where the monster levels leveled up in step along with you, which was also stupid.
Good thing i've decided to wait on leveling him further him as well.

tanis3303

Yea, the scaling thing is silly. I rarely play pve anymore other than to help out my alliance. Having a 1* character leveled up to 6x his intended level cap is ridiculous, Juggernaut maxes at lvl 40 for a reason. Same reason I don't participate much in events like balance of power or combined arms. I want nothing to do with an over leveled Juggs, whether he's fighting for me or against me, it's just not fun. What really bugs me in pve battles tho are the goons. You want to jack a character to 6x his intended level cap, and then feed him FREE AP EVERY TURN?? No thank you.

FaustianDeal

Lidolas wrote:

Sounds like you're much further on the curve than most.

I am in roughly the same roster position as the OP; now I wonder if that may be part of my problem.

Today's 2* players; having been almost utterly destroyed by their Pyrrhic battle to attain 3* status will (hopefully) find their subsequent transition to 4* status to be a breath of fresh air by comparison. But those of us who are already 3* players, and managed to finish (or partially finish) a 4* star before they jammed the brakes on the transition? Its akin to the sudden rapid deceleration experienced by a crash test dummy impacting the retaining wall. Some 3-4* transition players may acclimate to the new pace at which transition occurs..

How did I finish XForce and Fury?
1 - daily supply drops (4* Thor is not in there.. and to add insult I think I got a 3* Thor at day 415)
2 - PVE placements: secured before the dials on scaling and banding flipped into overdrive in the wrong direction
3 - PVP progression
4 - Lack of options: I got ~5 of my XF covers very early.. back when their options for 4* awards were very limited... it was basically just a pre-buff XForce and Bubbles. When Fury dropped on the scene you would see one PVP a week with one of his colors in the 1300 progression prize. Every 3 weeks you would get a chance at a given cover. As the 4* ranks expand you are already waiting almost 2 weeks between chances, and that gap wait is just going to get longer... and longer...

In a landscape with only XF and Bubbles (and no shield cool-downs) a 3* player was arguably able to finish Fury in 4 months just by hitting 1300 in 1 PVP/week - most of us got there faster by being in a t100 alliance, placements, supply drops (ooh or Anniversary tokens.. did those ever spoil us.)

I need only look to the current PVP to recognize how quickly my chances of finishing 4* Thor have become; as I am poised to abandon what will be a futile attempt at the blue cover mocking me from the 1300-point tier in the Hood event. The score compression in PVP is deadly, and the 270 wall is very real; and I ran into it hundreds of points lower than I did in any event last season.

The plan is to dramatically reduce the opportunities to win a given card, and then to increase the difficulty involved. Once they start vaulting 4* characters then 4 will have become the new 3... and anyone still there is probably there to stay.

Unknown

PvE scaling is hard to figure out because there seems to be a component based on how well you do in general that's very hard to figure out. It's hard to say whether your guys are 10 levels higher because you've a few more 166s or that you're actually just a little bit better than the guy who has less 166s in performance.

SnowcaTT

When I started the game I always thought 4* land was unreachable, but it didn't matter - Xforce and IW were terrible. Since then there have been a few (*ahem*) released, sounds like more are on their way, Xforce was buffed and 4*'s now rule the land.

I think the transition is pretty apparent - 3*'s matter very little for PVP's now, except for the required character. I've already started debating my transition - should I completely skip 3* land? Why not just save up the HP and ISO, move right into 4* land?

Well, for one, the HP flows incredibly slowly - intentionally, for this very reason. However, I can already see the frustration that would come from getting tons of 166's - like OP mentions, it's not going to get me 4*'s. If someone can cover tons of 166's they can cover some 200+, ISO will come eventually. I think the move into 4* land is a move to get people to pay for HP, so they can actually cover the 4*'s.

It really does appear more than ever that the top tier will stay at the top and it will be more impossible to break into that tier - unless you are willing to shell out money so you can compete.

ronin_san

tanis3303 wrote:

Q(b): Obtaining enough Iso can be difficult.

FACT. I find it easier to get coins for shields or roster slots.

tanis3303 wrote:

It's been my experience (and apparently almost everyone else on here from what I've read) that this change has made the 3-4* transition 100% UNREACHABLE, not "smoother" as advertised.

eh, given the next paragraph, when I reread this, I really, REALLY disagreed with this sentence.

tanis3303 wrote:

My current place in the MPQ metagame is a weird in between of 3* and 4* land. I have tons of 166s, of which most are obsolete bench warmers (Magneto, Cap, She-Hulk* and Hood being the exceptions),

And to substantiate your argument, you list the **** green one and two top tier 3*'s that should EASILY net you the covers you want....

tanis3303 wrote:

and I have a lvl 270 5/5/3 Xforce and a 270 5/5/3 Fury, but my 4-Thor is parked at 4/2/2, lvl 100.

You sound so freaking whiny right there, dude. You've got 2 maxed out 270s and a 4hor (someone I haven't landed a single cover for). You've got apparently tons of maxed out 3-stars.. Homey. we are all in a 3-4* transition. Until the number of 4* chars is triple the current amount, we can't even argue that 4* chars are a well represented tier. Think about it. DDino is a joke. He will NOT be used once functional, high HP characters are released. He has a presence in tourneys solely because he has high hit points. Invisible Woman is a joke in her current iteration, too. No doubt she'll be retuned. But until that happens, she'll be the worst 4* char. Elektra is destined NOT to be a good 4*. Her abilities are, eh, lacking. 4hor and XFW are the direction the tier is headed. And you're in great shape going forward.

What I am trying to emphasize is that you've got more than 50% of the GOOD 4* characters ALREADY COVERED. Shut up, man. I'd love to swap rosters with you. You've got it good.

tanis3303 wrote:

I need 5 covers and something like 375,000 iso to get her playable. This puts me waaayyyyy behind the curve, since Fury was good for like a minute, but now he's pretty much a joke compared to 4-Thor. I can't reliably fight the 270 X-Force/Thor teams with X-Force/random 3*, and X-Force/Random 3* isn't scaring ANYONE off defensively, so once I get to a point level in PvP where I'm worth 30+ points I have a bullseye the size of pluto on my back, so without shield hops, I don't see a way for me to get those last 5 Thors so I can start to compete again. I certainly wouldn't call my transition to 4* land "smoother".

Thoughts? Ideas? Suggestions? (not that they'll listen...I just like starting fires ) Is anyone else stuck where I'm at? Is it having the same effect on you that it is on me? The effect being: Welp, I'll never catch up, the carrot is too far away now. Guess I should find another game to play...

What's so wrong with rolling A and B teams to bolster your roster in this 3-4* transition?
With this game, you either pay time or money to get ahead. So which is it?

tanis3303

ronin-san wrote:

You sound so freaking whiny right there, dude. You've got 2 maxed out 270s and a 4hor (someone I haven't landed a single cover for). You've got apparently tons of maxed out 3-stars.. Homey. we are all in a 3-4* transition. Until the number of 4* chars is triple the current amount, we can't even argue that 4* chars are a well represented tier. Think about it. DDino is a joke. He will NOT be used once functional, high HP characters are released. He has a presence in tourneys solely because he has high hit points. Invisible Woman is a joke in her current iteration, too. No doubt she'll be retuned. But until that happens, she'll be the worst 4* char. Elektra is destined NOT to be a good 4*. Her abilities are, eh, lacking. 4hor and XFW are the direction the tier is headed. And you're in great shape going forward.

What I am trying to emphasize is that you've got more than 50% of the GOOD 4* characters ALREADY COVERED. Shut up, man. I'd love to swap rosters with you. You've got it good.

You're missing my point (although I'll give you that I may be whining a little bit ). I realize I'm not in a bad place. What I'm getting at is that I'm STUCK in that place. You say that what I have is more than enough to get what I need, and before they nerfed the shields, you were 100% right. In fact, I was steadily getting there. But then D3 pulled the ladder up, and without a reliable way to get more covers, I'm stuck right where I am unless I'm willing to spend ~$20 per cover. I'm not. The main reason I stuck with this game for so long is because yes, you could pay $$$ to get ahead, but if you were patient and put in the time, you could also progress with little to no money spent. IMO, thats a good balance for a f2p game. In its current form, the only way for a player like me to progress seems to be to throw upwards of $100 at the current "best character", of which there will always be a new one. That's not free to play anymore, that's pay to win, and getting dangerously close to pay to play.

I tried with the Hood event. I mean, I really tried. I got to around 850 before I started getting hammered by attacks, to the point I was fighting 15 point battles and coming back to -50 or more in losses. That was while running 249 Hood/270 X-F and 166 Magneto. I battled my way back up to ~809 or something like that and threw up a 3 hour shield. Queued up a few 20ish point battles and let it sit for awhile, hoping to pick up a few defensive wins. Good thing I shielded, cuz that shield bounced something like 200+ points, not a single win for me. I went back in with the goal of reaching 1,000 before using an 8-hour shield, this time running Fury/Xf/Hood. I didn't even break 900. I won 3 fights which took me to 890ish, and on my 4th fight (vs 270 xf/thor & 249 hood, for 13 points. Highest I could find ) I came back to -78. 4 people had destroyed my maxed Fury/Hood/XF team in the time it took me to do one battle. I fought till I ran out of health packs, but it was a classic half step forward, 2 step back battle. In the maybe hour, hour and half I was out, I was hit 15 times, for a total point loss of over 350. I picked up only 1 defensive win the whole run, for a measly 5 points. How the actual F am I supposed to hit 1300 (the only way for me to progress at this point) in an environment such as that??

What I currently have is simply not good enough to progress without the possibility of shield hopping, and I'm certainly not getting any 1-2 place finishes in PvE events with scaling being the monster it is. In a game like this, players need to feel like they're getting somewhere. If you take away any sense of progress, we lose interest, and D3 loses money. It's not good for the players, and it's not good for the company, everybody loses. I'm not complaining about where I am, but where I'm supposed to go from here.

Vladdy

I do believe that the changes for a smoother 3-4* transition are not done yet, maybe they haven't even started yet. Shield cooldowns might be part of those changes or not. I don't know. It seems we have to wait for the next changes that are about to come.

I think it is too early to predict the consequences.

As for shield cooldowns we have to see whether they change the reward structure or not. It would make a big difference. I do hope, they do .

Unknown

I got three Invisible Woman last week, and a 4* Thor this morning. They seem to be pushing 4*s right now.

Lidolas

tanis3303 wrote:

How the actual F am I supposed to hit 1300 (the only way for me to progress at this point) in an environment such as that??

What I currently have is simply not good enough to progress without the possibility of shield hopping, and I'm certainly not getting any 1-2 place finishes in PvE events with scaling being the monster it is. In a game like this, players need to feel like they're getting somewhere. If you take away any sense of progress, we lose interest, and D3 loses money. It's not good for the players, and it's not good for the company, everybody loses. I'm not complaining about where I am, but where I'm supposed to go from here.

That is not the only way to progress. What I've been doing is taking 2-4 PvP events off. Well, I join a bracket, play the seeds, then tank a few times. When a 1st place is one that I want, I play and I can easily get 1st without shielding.

Also, players don't have to feel like they are progressing to enjoy the game. It is still essentially a match-3 game that features comic book characters. I enjoy playing the game for that alone.

Another thought, it was only recently that they announced that the - transition will be easier than the - . You haven't given them much time to implement whatever changes they have in mind for that.

tanis3303

Lidolas wrote:

tanis3303 wrote:

How the actual F am I supposed to hit 1300 (the only way for me to progress at this point) in an environment such as that??

What I currently have is simply not good enough to progress without the possibility of shield hopping, and I'm certainly not getting any 1-2 place finishes in PvE events with scaling being the monster it is. In a game like this, players need to feel like they're getting somewhere. If you take away any sense of progress, we lose interest, and D3 loses money. It's not good for the players, and it's not good for the company, everybody loses. I'm not complaining about where I am, but where I'm supposed to go from here.

That is not the only way to progress. What I've been doing is taking 2-4 PvP events off. Well, I join a bracket, play the seeds, then tank a few times. When a 1st place is one that I want, I play and I can easily get 1st without shielding.

Also, players don't have to feel like they are progressing to enjoy the game. It is still essentially a match-3 game that features comic book characters. I enjoy playing the game for that alone.

Another thought, it was only recently that they announced that the - transition will be easier than the - . You haven't given them much time to implement whatever changes they have in mind for that.

*Shrugs* Worth a shot. I did snipe a 1st place finish for a Yellow Thor during the Cage event with only 965 points, but I wholly consider that a fluke (also, it was a yellow, not a coveted red or blue), and not something I can accomplish regularly. I certainly don't need anything from this Doom event, and my alliance only asks for ~700, so maybe I'll try this and see if I can score some covers that way. Thanks for offering advice and not just calling me a cry baby for having what I see as a legitimate complaint!

Unknown

tanis3303 wrote:

Lidolas wrote:

tanis3303 wrote:

How the actual F am I supposed to hit 1300 (the only way for me to progress at this point) in an environment such as that??

What I currently have is simply not good enough to progress without the possibility of shield hopping, and I'm certainly not getting any 1-2 place finishes in PvE events with scaling being the monster it is. In a game like this, players need to feel like they're getting somewhere. If you take away any sense of progress, we lose interest, and D3 loses money. It's not good for the players, and it's not good for the company, everybody loses. I'm not complaining about where I am, but where I'm supposed to go from here.

That is not the only way to progress. What I've been doing is taking 2-4 PvP events off. Well, I join a bracket, play the seeds, then tank a few times. When a 1st place is one that I want, I play and I can easily get 1st without shielding.

Also, players don't have to feel like they are progressing to enjoy the game. It is still essentially a match-3 game that features comic book characters. I enjoy playing the game for that alone.

Another thought, it was only recently that they announced that the - transition will be easier than the - . You haven't given them much time to implement whatever changes they have in mind for that.

*Shrugs* Worth a shot. I did snipe a 1st place finish for a Yellow Thor during the Cage event with only 965 points, but I wholly consider that a fluke (also, it was a yellow, not a coveted red or blue), and not something I can accomplish regularly. I certainly don't need anything from this Doom event, and my alliance only asks for ~700, so maybe I'll try this and see if I can score some covers that way. Thanks for offering advice and not just calling me a cry baby for having what I see as a legitimate complaint!

Better still would be to take some PvE off. I was playing very casual, doing late joins to get small brackets and easy prizes. I was placed into the kiddie pool shard of the Simulator bracket 2 events ago. Unfortunately, real life came up and I was unable to play the second sub very much, so I coasted to top20 with minimal effort (only clearing essentials). There were only 4 players in the bracket who were semi-grinding, so a top2 finish for a 4star would have been possible. That said, I am back in the deep end again, so you can only use this once every so many events, but since you say scaling is too much for your roster, this might work.