Crafting

Pwuz_

I agree that there needs to be a change, but I'm not sure that this would be implemented just because the developers seem very reluctant to implement ideas that are not idiot friendly.

I think a better option would be to increase the number of events running at the same time. Make it so there are MORE events running than a single player COULD ever play. This would force players to not grind every event, but focus on just the one event that gives the rewards they are looking for.

This could potentially give Alliances a better chance of scoring in the top 100 since no Alliance could potentially be top 100 in more than 1 event at the same time.

Though as always someone is going to complain that they want to win everything always.

Unknown

Yes i'm ok with the fact to add more event at the same time but it will still not fix the problem of tokens drop rates.

Here with this idea, everybodies are equal and can get something good spendind time on the game. And i think it's more motivating than grinding every 2 or 3 hours.

And of course they can monetize it and got some money, maybe much much more than actual system.

Pwuz_

Human psychology would beg to differ. It's the same way that slot machines work against our brains.

If the reward is consistent, the behaviour stays stagnant at best and declines more often. Randomly rewarding for the behaviour actually increases the desired behaviour.

Unknown

Piout! To up the topic

TheViceroy

I had thoughts about something like this, but any system like this needs to have guaranteed returns to offer a noticeable improvement. Just replacing random for random is not much of an improvement.
My idea is something similar:

One can think of Standard Tokens as Commons and Heroics as Uncommons in CCG terminology. After players have obtained a decent inventory of cards, Commons are mostly worthless, and Uncommons marginally useful (depending on the Uncommon). Therefore, there needs to be a way to let advanced players actually get some benefit from these resources. Currently in MPQ, veterans look at tokens as pure ISO and that's it.

What this game needs is the Altar of Wishes from Might & Magic Duel of Champions, and whatever this feature is called in Heartstone.

For some background, the Altar of Wishes allows players to permanently destroy a card in their inventory in exchange for Gems. Gems can then be traded in for a card of their choice. Different rarities are worth different amounts of Gems, but the important thing is the player knows exactly what they are trading the Gems in for. So, if their deck needs a specific Rare to finish it off, the Player can work towards that card by trashing enough useless Commons over time to eventually get the card they need.

Back to how this could work for MPQ.

Players can trash unused tokens and convert them into "Recruitment Points."
Different Token types give different amounts. Suggested point totals are purely for examples.
- Standards = lowest (1 Point)
- Event-based = medium (3 Points)
- Heroic = highest (5 Points)
- 10 Packs = Moderately better return than 10 individual tokens of its type. (Example = A 10 Pack of Heroics would give 75 Points instead of 50 (5 * 10))

A brand new menu is available called the Recruitment Screen.
This screen, displays every single hero that has ever been released.
Each Hero has two point costs associated with them. One cost is for a random cover of the Hero. The second cost is for a specific power/cover of the Hero.
If the Player chooses the first option, they are given a random cover of that hero. If the Player chooses the second option, they pick the cover they want, and are given that cover.

Each choice has a different Recruitment Point cost, and the more rare and more specific the Player gets, the more expensive it is. Suggested point totals are purely for examples.
- 2 Star Hero = 10 Points
- 2 Star Specific Cover = 25 Points
- 3 Star Hero = 50 Points
- 3 Star Specific Cover = 75 Points
- etc.

This way, player can actually, obtain the heroes they want to use, and the covers they need.
No more getting that 8th Blue Pyslocke cover for your 1 5 0 Psylocke.
No more "I want ANY cover of Blade SO BAD just cause I want him but I have like a 2% chance to get one from a token".
No More "I missed getting the newest character, guess I'm **** for the next 2+ PVE's due to essential nodes."

This provides a system that puts obtaining covers completely into the hands of the Player.
This would also make "Cover Rotation" pointless, as The Recruitment system would let Players get any hero any time they want. Any time a new hero is released, it's simply added to the token pool and Recruitment screen. It matters little if the % for a specific 3 star to drop is lowered if the Player can just choose they one they want with the Recruitment system.

There could be many ways to monetize a system like this too, and it would extend very easily as content continues to grow.
Hell, lots of players might actually buy Recruitment Points with HC/real money if they knew they were getting the hero they wanted to use.

Unknown

The Viceroy wrote:

I had thoughts about something like this, but any system like this needs to have guaranteed returns to offer a noticeable improvement. Just replacing random for random is not much of an improvement.
My idea is something similar:

One can think of Standard Tokens as Commons and Heroics as Uncommons in CCG terminology. After players have obtained a decent inventory of cards, Commons are mostly worthless, and Uncommons marginally useful (depending on the Uncommon). Therefore, there needs to be a way to let advanced players actually get some benefit from these resources. Currently in MPQ, veterans look at tokens as pure ISO and that's it.

What this game needs is the Altar of Wishes from Might & Magic Duel of Champions, and whatever this feature is called in Heartstone.

For some background, the Altar of Wishes allows players to permanently destroy a card in their inventory in exchange for Gems. Gems can then be traded in for a card of their choice. Different rarities are worth different amounts of Gems, but the important thing is the player knows exactly what they are trading the Gems in for. So, if their deck needs a specific Rare to finish it off, the Player can work towards that card by trashing enough useless Commons over time to eventually get the card they need.

Back to how this could work for MPQ.

Players can trash unused tokens and convert them into "Recruitment Points."
Different Token types give different amounts. Suggested point totals are purely for examples.
- Standards = lowest (1 Point)
- Event-based = medium (3 Points)
- Heroic = highest (5 Points)
- 10 Packs = Moderately better return than 10 individual tokens of its type. (Example = A 10 Pack of Heroics would give 75 Points instead of 50 (5 * 10))

A brand new menu is available called the Recruitment Screen.
This screen, displays every single hero that has ever been released.
Each Hero has two point costs associated with them. One cost is for a random cover of the Hero. The second cost is for a specific power/cover of the Hero.
If the Player chooses the first option, they are given a random cover of that hero. If the Player chooses the second option, they pick the cover they want, and are given that cover.

Each choice has a different Recruitment Point cost, and the more rare and more specific the Player gets, the more expensive it is. Suggested point totals are purely for examples.
- 2 Star Hero = 10 Points
- 2 Star Specific Cover = 25 Points
- 3 Star Hero = 50 Points
- 3 Star Specific Cover = 75 Points
- etc.

This way, player can actually, obtain the heroes they want to use, and the covers they need.
No more getting that 8th Blue Pyslocke cover for your 1 5 0 Psylocke.
No more "I want ANY cover of Blade SO BAD just cause I want him but I have like a 2% chance to get one from a token".
No More "I missed getting the newest character, guess I'm tinykitty for the next 2+ PVE's due to essential nodes."

This provides a system that puts obtaining covers completely into the hands of the Player.
This would also make "Cover Rotation" pointless, as The Recruitment system would let Players get any hero any time they want. Any time a new hero is released, it's simply added to the token pool and Recruitment screen. It matters little if the % for a specific 3 star to drop is lowered if the Player can just choose they one they want with the Recruitment system.

There could be many ways to monetize a system like this too, and it would extend very easily as content continues to grow.
Hell, lots of players might actually buy Recruitment Points with HC/real money if they knew they were getting the hero they wanted to use.

Yes! yes! yes! I totally agree with that !!!

The Altar of wishes of DoC is THE perfect exemple!

Because before The Altar of Wishes new players could not rivalize with veterans because problems of randomly tokens was the same as this game(that can work if you re just a collector of course). And with this feature the problem was done and the game is just better than ever now. I can't understand why some people are still affraid of that.

I think your suggestion need a bit of (minors) rework but we are here for this .

I like the idea of buying a randomly cover less expansive than a specific one.
But i think we should destroy covers and not tokens. Because in certain events you can get directly a cover and if you already have it, it's the same problem. Plus you keep the pleasure to open tokens and still have a chance to get one or more you don't have.

By the way the idea is great, i'll think how to make it better while i'll sleeping because i'm too tired actually to do it .

TheViceroy

Clems wrote:

But i think we should destroy covers and not tokens. Because in certain events you can get directly a cover and if you already have it, it's the same problem. Plus you keep the pleasure to open tokens and still have a chance to get one or more you don't have.

I personally am not against using covers too.
I only suggested tokens only as a "compromise" to the devs, because they probably wouldn't go for opened covers. They'd probably think it's "too powerful" or something. Basically you could first open a token and see what you got first, and then junk the inevitable 1 star or 2 star.
Or, perhaps claimed tokens just give less Recruitment Points because you opened them first, so the risk is gone.
Either way, it could add a fun little gamble to junk an unopened token for Recruitment Points. Was that token you just trashed a 3 star? Or even a 4star?
You are basically trading the chance at getting a 3 or 4 star via RNG luck for the longer but guaranteed gain of the 3/4 star of your choice from your accumulated Recruitment Points.

Something else this would highlight.
If players could choose what heroes they want to use this way, we would definitely see which characters are more powerful/broken, because everyone will flock to them. This will give much better usage metrics to the devs to know what characters are actually popular and which ones gather dust. Right now the RNG skews this so much that you can't get good metrics from it. Some are forced the use or because that's their highest 3 star due to their RNG luck. And I feel for them.
For example, I have been trying to get a forever. Currently 1 4 3, Level 117. I just NEVER get covers for him. And now that he is out of token rotation, who knows when I will. I have a ton of ISO waiting for him. With this system, I wouldn't be stalled in the arbitrary manner in which most players currently are.

We are at the mercy of token rotation, and nobody likes it, even the devs, though (not to get catty) they won't admit it because it would highlight that they have no better solution to take its place.

Unknown

I think we should stay on easy things to make. If we differentiate tokens from covers that will beggin to be hard to put in place.

In DoC (to take again the exemple of Altar of Wishes), you open your tokens and in function of what you win, you destroy what you don't need and keep usefull stuff.

I'm ok for ISO as an advance slacker(don't know if we say like that ^^') but not covers. Covers have to be equality in term of winning by every players, this is the goal of this topic. After people up the team they want with the ISO they win and evolution of diferent teams have to be based ONLY on ISO!

loroku

Definitely a good idea and I also agree they should implement something like this.

One thing: I doubt even with this sort of system any number of 1* covers could be used to generate a higher-level cover. If so, they'd probably set it so that you need 100k 1* covers to get a 4* or something equally as crazy. They REALLY don't want people to be able to farm those up.

Also, while this system sounds like it would help "everyone," in truth it's just more of an incentive to grind. The more you grind the more covers you get. Anyone who is already a big grinder (who's also likely a top player) is just going to get better faster. Lower-level folks won't actually see very much quality-of-life improvement, I'm guessing. Although the incentive to play more so you can actually progress is a huge one - hopefully they'd value that.

Honestly, the best system sounds like the one they already dumped: trade in 3* and 4* covers for HP, the currency that's already in the game and allows you to buy covers you want. But they didn't like that system for whatever reason, so it's hard to say if they'd bring it back. If they actually wanted to speed up the 3* transition, they'd have to make 2* covers worth a tiny amount of HP (even 5 is better than 250 ISO, in my opinion), and then possibly also raise the cost of 4* covers to 3k HP or maybe more. Also, to make it super-player friendly, they could make it so that you could always choose whether you'd want HP or ISO, because some of the top players would rather have 250 ISO than HP.

Anyway, all of this is easier and simpler than introducing a new currency that also needs to be tracked and given its own UI and whatever.

Ultimately, though, you have to ask yourself: if the outrageously high price of buying covers with HP and the outrageously high amount of ISO needed to max a character and the outrageously high cost of doing either of those with real money is currently working for them - why would they change it? I mean, there's the argument that if prices were lower, more people might buy - but that's not how FTP games (at least typically) work. Whales are a huge, huge percentage of revenue. Everyone else just makes the game interesting for the whales.

TheViceroy

I proposed that system to try and address the following:

- Let players eventually obtain the heroes & covers they want.
- Greatly minimize the luck element in a game where strategy is supposed to be a huge factor in success.
- Let players establish their own personal goal to encourage repeated play and give a sense of accomplishment to work towards something that will actually be helpful to them.
- Greatly minimize the need to vault characters, as vaulting makes those characters completely inaccessible.
- Removes the need for people's desire for a "wild card cover", since they can choose the specific cover they want with this system, instead of getting that 8th Blue Black Panther cover from a RNG token.
- Make low-end tokens actually useful for veteran players.

loroku wrote:

Definitely a good idea and I also agree they should implement something like this.

One thing: I doubt even with this sort of system any number of 1* covers could be used to generate a higher-level cover. If so, they'd probably set it so that you need 100k 1* covers to get a 4* or something equally as crazy. They REALLY don't want people to be able to farm those up.

I am sitting on 500+ standard tokens, and I know there are forumites that have easily double that. I suppose that's 500 x 100 ISO, but still. Not as useful as they could be. Even if it did take 500+ standard tokens it would be worth it.
There's nothing worse than see a 3 star appear from a standard only to have it be for a cover you've maxed. And as a player gets more and more covers, those odds increase. As a recourse of standards being useless to veteran players, I have stockpiled them because there is very little incentive for me to open them as the % chance I get something worth a damn is so small. The character I want (Lazy Daken) is vaulted.

loroku wrote:

Also, while this system sounds like it would help "everyone," in truth it's just more of an incentive to grind. The more you grind the more covers you get. Anyone who is already a big grinder (who's also likely a top player) is just going to get better faster. Lower-level folks won't actually see very much quality-of-life improvement, I'm guessing. Although the incentive to play more so you can actually progress is a huge one - hopefully they'd value that.

Agreed that I suppose this system would provide more of an incentive to grind. At least it would be towards something that the Player can pick though. And yes, entry players probably wouldn't get much use for this system. But the Altar of Wishes and Hearthstone Dust aren't entry player features either.
Your last sentence is a big one tho = it give players a reason to play. If they know they will be guaranteed a specific cover that will help them, they would totally play more. It hurts me to see my brother with a 4 Red Lazy Cap (covered at 3 4 5) and 3 Blue Falcon (covered at 3 3 2) . Either one of those covers would make a huge impact in his progression, but he has absolutely no control over when that will happen. Basically the next time they are offered as obtainable PVE/PVP rewards.

loroku wrote:

Honestly, the best system sounds like the one they already dumped: trade in 3* and 4* covers for HP, the currency that's already in the game and allows you to buy covers you want. But they didn't like that system for whatever reason, so it's hard to say if they'd bring it back. If they actually wanted to speed up the 3* transition, they'd have to make 2* covers worth a tiny amount of HP (even 5 is better than 250 ISO, in my opinion), and then possibly also raise the cost of 4* covers to 3k HP or maybe more. Also, to make it super-player friendly, they could make it so that you could always choose whether you'd want HP or ISO, because some of the top players would rather have 250 ISO than HP.

Anyway, all of this is easier and simpler than introducing a new currency that also needs to be tracked and given its own UI and whatever.

I miss selling 3 & 4 star covers for HP as well. That I just got from the Daily Login Reward felt like she was giving me the finger, as I already have her with 5 Green but could have used either other color. If it were like the old days I would have been okay with the 100 HC instead of annoyed. Not to mention she's worthless gameplay wise as a 4 star.
However, even under the old system players were still at the mercy of the RNG, because one had to actually pull a 3 star hero in order to sell them, so it wasn't reliable as a source of HC income. That was one of the reasons D3 tried to use as to why they got rid of it if I remember, was that it was "too random". I think they got rid of it because they didn't want new players selling 3 stars for HC instead of buying roster slots, as well as being an unpredictable income stream of HC that couldn't be tracked reliably. These games need to know exactly where all of the "free" premium currency comes from.
More often than not, a new player won't have room for the first several 3 star covers they get, and that 25 HC can add up quickly. Eventually it was enough to stave off spending real money on HC to buy a roster spot.
That's how they got most of us to pay up; that first roster slot purchase. I'd hate to be a new player now because they made it much more prohibitive by bundling multiple rosters slots together for a much higher cost. It kills me, cause a buddy of mine literally sells almost all 3 star covers he gets that he doesn't already own because he doesn't want to spend any more money for more roster slots. He has a smattering of single cover 3 stars, most of them mid-tier ones, with no real hope of them ever being usable.

loroku wrote:

Ultimately, though, you have to ask yourself: if the outrageously high price of buying covers with HP and the outrageously high amount of ISO needed to max a character and the outrageously high cost of doing either of those with real money is currently working for them - why would they change it? I mean, there's the argument that if prices were lower, more people might buy - but that's not how FTP games (at least typically) work. Whales are a huge, huge percentage of revenue. Everyone else just makes the game interesting for the whales.

This is the crux of it.
It seem apparent that the current system, flaws and all, is earning D3 enough revenue to not risk addressing this problem, even if it makes for a better game. It's a shame, because there's a lot of "real game" features here sequestered behind P2W implementation.
Just look at the Shield cooldown changes. I personally am ambivalent about the change because I rarely use shields, but all it really does is allow P2W players have a bigger advantage, as they will still pay. The fix would have been to only allow each type of shield to be used ONCE per PVP event. A 12h, 8h, 3h, and that's it (they would probably need to change the durations a bit, and maybe add a 4th one). That would completely remove shield hopping, but severely impact revenue.

Call me old fashioned, but I feel that if a game is fun & engaging, the money from players will come.

KrazyKeylime

The Viceroy wrote:

Clems wrote:

But i think we should destroy covers and not tokens. Because in certain events you can get directly a cover and if you already have it, it's the same problem. Plus you keep the pleasure to open tokens and still have a chance to get one or more you don't have.

I personally am not against using covers too.
I only suggested tokens only as a "compromise" to the devs, because they probably wouldn't go for opened covers. They'd probably think it's "too powerful" or something. Basically you could first open a token and see what you got first, and then junk the inevitable 1 star or 2 star.
Or, perhaps claimed tokens just give less Recruitment Points because you opened them first, so the risk is gone.
Either way, it could add a fun little gamble to junk an unopened token for Recruitment Points. Was that token you just trashed a 3 star? Or even a 4star?
You are basically trading the chance at getting a 3 or 4 star via RNG luck for the longer but guaranteed gain of the 3/4 star of your choice from your accumulated Recruitment Points.

Something else this would highlight.
If players could choose what heroes they want to use this way, we would definitely see which characters are more powerful/broken, because everyone will flock to them. This will give much better usage metrics to the devs to know what characters are actually popular and which ones gather dust. Right now the RNG skews this so much that you can't get good metrics from it. Some are forced the use or because that's their highest 3 star due to their RNG luck. And I feel for them.
For example, I have been trying to get a forever. Currently 1 4 3, Level 117. I just NEVER get covers for him. And now that he is out of token rotation, who knows when I will. I have a ton of ISO waiting for him. With this system, I wouldn't be stalled in the arbitrary manner in which most players currently are.

We are at the mercy of token rotation, and nobody likes it, even the devs, though (not to get catty) they won't admit it because it would highlight that they have no better solution to take its place.

I think it could start covers then add tokens with the mechanic when you trading in token it rolls it and if it rolls a 3 or above it can let you purchase for 25-75% HP of normal cover( can be set or be random maybe cost iso to re-roll) or give more points for trading if not wanted. win for players more points or cheaper cover dev get more currency usage.

JeanPh1l

I really like this idea. It would add another complete level to the game and would facilitate the 3* transition. Please devs consider this !!

Unknown

No guys, i didn't leave this topic, i'm reading it every days to see if there is any new suggestion

And i always came back at the same conclusion.

The best idea could be destroy or transform covers in new money called TokenMoney for the exemple (exemple: Cover 1* => TokenMoney 1*, Cover 2* => TokenMoney 2* or kind of new iso, i saw people talking about red iso ).

When we get enough of this money we can go in a new shop ( i though about the "Collector" from Guardians of the Galaxy or why not "The Daily Buggle" from SpiderMan).

I can choose between the cover i want (more expansive) or just a new token (less expansive) in function of my TokenMoney.

Exemple (Prices are just for exemple) :

I want a Patchy cover which cost 80 TokenMoney 3* or i can choose new tokens 3* for 25 TokenMoney 3*.

I can choose between a cover of Thor 2* for 50 TokenMoney 2* or 3 tokens 2* for 15 TokenMoney 2* each.


I think it's the best idea where we have to go. The best for evolution and interest of this game.

What do you think about this ?

Unknown

Better first page

TheViceroy

Yeah, this is basically the same idea I had.
The only minor difference is that I would allow the Player to pick the specific cover they want as well.

Often the RNG just doesn't give you what you need, as the % chance to get what you want is so infinitesimally low you'll almost never get it from a token. Almost all of the the last covers for my current cover maxed 3 stars were from events where I knew exactly what the cover(s) were.
For example, I was given the finger by a 6th Yellow X-Force cover the other day for my 1 2 5 X-Force.

KrazyKeylime

esoxnepa wrote:

Clems wrote:

GothicKratos wrote:

Honestly, I think this idea is really cool, but I think it would be a terrible investment of resources for MPQ - I say this because people would simply switch complaining about drop rates on crafting rather than tokens (or additionally).

First thank you for your feedback

And no, it will not be a terrible investment because the drop rate is 100%. The goal of this feature is to make the game accessible for everyone.

I believe the "Terrible investment of resources" line is more that D3 won't see any positive impact on their bottom line. Yes, you have a good idea for the players, but it doesn't add enough fun to see people spend more on the game. Or is there an aspect of your idea that does provide D3 a ROI better than the existing system?

Your system can probably be tuned to offer something D3 would see as revenue generating, or generating additional player attachment to the game. Something like every day you can convert # covers towards crafting a cover, to give an additional daily reward type of inventive to encourage game attachment.

I do think the token/pack/covering system needs a rework.

I think the system can be easily modified to have HP buy a certain amount of points. but this solves some problems for player retention and may even bring some players back into the fold which is worth the investment. right now the game is completely random on how it grants covers with no specific direction( random tokens and rotating rewards) with this system players can focus on specific characters. This also saves on frustration, with old and new players alike, with roster slots. The rate of the growing 3 characters can not keep up with the rising cost of slots. I have pretty much been spending the HP i gain each week to open my slots and even that is grinding to a halt with my reserves being depleted. This system would allow to keep some of that investment and put it to use instead of letting the cover expire while scrambling for hp or selling a 3 for a pitiful 500 iso. This allows allows for better gaming as it no longer forces you build a team based on luck. Players can go after their favorite characters more easily and make them more determined to develop them. it also gives them a launch point to gain a cover if they want to invest HP. ya the tokens are ****, but now i can put it to use to something i actually need.It is cringe worthy to hear new players having to trash 3* characters cause roster slot prices are too high. I think this system would be a great investment as it would solve many of the problems with the current play of the game.

Unknown

The Viceroy wrote:

Yeah, this is basically the same idea I had.
The only minor difference is that I would allow the Player to pick the specific cover they want as well.

Often the RNG just doesn't give you what you need, as the % chance to get what you want is so infinitesimally low you'll almost never get it from a token. Almost all of the the last covers for my current cover maxed 3 stars were from events where I knew exactly what the cover(s) were.
For example, I was given the finger by a 6th Yellow X-Force cover the other day for my 1 2 5 X-Force.

Yes that's the idea i would say too. You can choose the cover you want in the new (Collector ? ) shop.

With lower prices more like 20-25 TM(TokenMoney ) for the most rare covers. They could introduce new rewards in events and that would be a "less punishing" and "more rewarding" system.

And if we prefer we could buy a new token instead of a cover but for less TM of course (even token 3* and 4* ).

I have the idea in my head i should try to illustrate it for a better understanding. But i'll need to learn some logiciels better than paint :>

Unknown

UP

Dont want this topic fall in the abbyss.

Unknown

Big UP

TheViceroy

So, after seeing the latest Q&A video, I wonder if the not-so subtle tease about "getting character through means other than tokens" possibly means they are exploring something like this?
A shame they said token rotation isn't going away. It's awful.