Fix your MMR at last!

Nefesh

Do something with MMR already to let others to play... It's not fair that 270 270 395 (crazy, yes?) can attack 100 (+/-) level teams..
This game is completely unplayable because P2W guys like this one on the screen. Why on earth they can attack anyone? This completely unfair to any casual players who just try to build some characters... People who really need those tokens and covers cant get them because someone like this pushes them down to get, what? 500 iso?

It won't ever happen, I know, but this is a suggestion subforum right?

UPD. decided to change the subject from "Sandbox all moneybags to fight one another" to "Fix your MMR at last!" not to offend vets who appeared to be so touchy when "prey" gave their voice and P2Ws

JamieMadrox

Nefesh wrote:

Sandbox all moneybags to fight one another to let others to play...
This game is completely unplayable because P2W guys like this one on the screen. Why on earth they can attack anyone? This completely unfair to any casual players who just try to build some characters... People who really need those tokens and covers cant get them because someone like this pushes them down to get, what? 500 iso?

It won't ever happen, I know, but this is a suggestion subforum right?

You have no idea what you're talking about. First off, Colog generally only wins one of each new cover and then buys the rest. He usually does this within minutes of getting the initial covers and all of that information you see on here about character abilities at the various levels comes from there. He's probably one of the least P2W guys in the game. Sure he has all of the characters, but he's not one of those people that spends big to come in first every event and he's more than happy to help others who are going for covers that they need and/or give up placement so that others that need the covers can get them.

If you really want to complain about p2w players, complain about the ones that spend thousands of HP on shields and boosts to get 2000-3000 points in PVP events.

Oh and the spenders do have their own sandbox, it's called the top of your brackets.

Unknown

Nefesh wrote:

Sandbox all moneybags to fight one another to let others to play...
This game is completely unplayable because P2W guys like this one on the screen. Why on earth they can attack anyone? This completely unfair to any casual players who just try to build some characters... People who really need those tokens and covers cant get them because someone like this pushes them down to get, what? 500 iso?

It won't ever happen, I know, but this is a suggestion subforum right?

For starters, I have really been pushing lately to get mpq to expand rewards and iso to help with transitioning players bc I believe they are key to long term health of game.

That said, you need to learn to show a little respect. The player you are bad mouthing is one of the nicest and most honorable people playing. If you read the forum, you'd know that. Second, players like him are the reason players like you can play for free.

Lastly, you need to look in the mirror. Your alliance is the reason many other transition and new players miss out on rewards bc they choose to have lives and not grind pve as hard as you. I don't see you arguing that you should be segregated bc you are taking rewards from others.

Nefesh

wahah ) -3 seems P2W don't like the idea to be sandboxed ) they want to crash other people to get their crazy 2000+ scores...

BTW, that guy, you are so eager to defend isn't the example of worst P2W, he is just an example of any. Anyone who has 270 level Elektra after few days she was just dropped into the game no doubt has bought her covers (~15000-25000 HP right? Now tell me that you can earn that amount ingame, plus 400k ISO to level and that's only one character), no one can convince me in the opposite. And fact that he uses this force to attack 2* and underleveled 3* to get some ISO not kinda mine definition of "nicest" and definitely not the reason to show respect for, sorry. That happened in LR, where I was hitting only seed teams...

But that's not the point... this wasn't about this particular guy. This "idea" been coming up dozens of times when I see mutant teams attacking everyone, and I finally decided to share And seems all who put me negative and replayed here are from 166 or even 270 guild, right? So, you just don't understand what it's like to wake up every morning and see -xx in PVP by 166/249 teams and that when you had just 300 points. And when you push higher to get at least 1 tinykitti cover that becomes worse and sometime impossible. That's not your fault that game gives weak targets to beat, that's just a stupid game, yeah?

PS. I'm sorry that because of our Alliance you guys didn't get some extra HP to spend on shields for beating 2* trasitioners.
PPS. Yeah, continue to put positives for each one and negative for me, It's kinda fun to see it... And don't forget to coordinate to crash me in PVP (my nik is nefesh03) with your 166/270 teams for rising this really not ease topic

PPPS. and Merry Christmas to all, I mean everyone

over_clocked

Couldn't find you in WE ARE GROOT, Nefesh. Are you in some other alliance already?

Anyway I remember being at exactly the same place and complaining about superior rosters attacking me. There is no other way to be immune or be less vulnerable, at any rate, but develop your own roster, through time, effort, luck, and/or money. The last thing is not mandatory, it just makes the other factors that much more significant.

If you pardon me the crude analogy, newbs with 1*s and budding 2*s are the krill, the plankton; the small fish - the most numerous and the least noticeable. But of utmost importance to the health of the entire ecosystem. Established 2*s and transitioners are the tuna and the krill-eating whales, and 3*s and higher are dolphins, sharks and whales that feed on fish and OTHER whales. Apex predators are really not that numerous compared to other ranks but they are the most visible, most of the time.
Every rank is necessary for the whole thing to stay alive. And predators absolutely have to feed on someone. Today it's you, tomorrow it could be your unlucky competitor in an actually important event (LRs are the way for you to get some ISO and standard tokens, sometimes a Heroic token if you're that persistent).

I know the system does not seem fair in the slightest when you're low level. But as lower rosters can dominate PvE, PvP is the developed rosters' domain. Eventually you will get better covers, through PvE, rare PvP placement or drops, and will be able to stay unshielded at higher scores than before. Right now what happens is that every better roster helps you stay in your place. You can only shoot higher with the factors already mentioned, and that's just on you and your alliance choices, the system won't help you as long as we have the same drop rates, reward tiers, etc.
Don't think that most 3* and higher players that attack you seek you out. I personally haven't tanked in ages, and the system still feeds me 1* rosters from time to time, while mostly offering 2*s and then transitioners until the point where 3*s and 4*s duke it out among themselves. Tanking is very important to all but developed rosters.

Nefesh

I'm on vacation from PVE so I'm not in ally now.

That's an absolutely correct analogy. And that's what I hate most in this game (even more than numerous bugs we encounter ). Survival of the fittest, strong exploit and prey on weak and stuff like that... we have it enough in everyday life... unfortunately. It would be to utopian to deny that. Part of the human nature, I suppose? But we play games to have a moment of rest and fun from that everyday life, right? And it turns out that game is the same... unless you pay some money and that's stupid...

Personally I skip too weak targets in PVP, until I'm get tired of checking their rosters at least. And I like to fight someone more strong and I can . But this game is built that way that only "safe way" is to hit weak enemy, because strong ones can/will retaliate you... So system of this game puts us in this conditions, and literally we all victims of the system. And I never complain about people, even if it may seem so, they are just examples if the situation... I always complain about sick game system... May be I should quit you may say? may be but I like bejeweld and comic heroes, I really do

Why not to make it more sporting? Weight categories (we have MMR... but it's kinda "broken"). Fair fights - where wins strongest and fastest, but not predatoreous Seems PVE is more like it, but too time consuming. Name of the topic instead of "Sandbox all moneybags to fight one another" would sound better like "Fix your tinykitty MMR at last!", right? But that's almost the same...

Square

In this game, and in every other I ever played, I never ever complained when I was new to it. I don't know if it's just this game, or if it's a generational thing, but good things take time. They take time. Be patient. Or pump your money in. Nothing to complain about.

Unknown

Yea, I'm pushing ideas to help transitioning players becausei don't understand what it's like?!?! You really should do your research. I say all the time that new and transitioning players need help. The cover system that originally worked no longer works because of the disparity between players (regardless how they got their characters) and due to the flood of new covers the past year. To say it's the fault of other players shows you lack the understanding of the real problem. Even if you got first in every pvp that would be 48 covers or enough to cover max 3 characters, which you still couldn't do due to receiving covers for different characters and not receiving the spec you want. But let's say you did manage to cover max 3 characters. 2 new characters come out every month, so you would only be gaining one character compared to the back log off over 30. So you ate looking at roughly 3 years before you got caught up. But they run covers you already have over and over, so 3 years is still not doable. That's not counting iso to level the characters. That's assuming you could afford the roster slots. Hence, the entire economy is messed up.

The other point you ignore is there is no game or covers for you to get off no one spends money. If players are going to be further punished for spending money, why would they on this game? Use your head. The game cannot exist of it doesn't make money. If there is no game, you still can't get first.

Nefesh

According to my resupplies it's my 172 day in game.

I remember time when I've just started. A week or so took me to clean all prologue's subs and build some 1* characters. Then I tried pvp with my uderleveled 1*. I didn't know anything about it. It wasn't ease but I could win a few matches thanks to loaner who was tanking some damage. Then I discovered that some nodes turn red showing me 2*@94, 3*@100+, 166/166/249 and so on. I thought the game was alerting me that those enemies are to strong for me.

So, after 172 days in this game I at least know what does red nodes mean. Some things must be eternal?

This game have seen a lot of good stuff implemented. And also a lot of nice stuff that we will never see again (like Spidey, Rags+GSBW, True Healing, 10-15% drop rate, guarantied covers in LRs, 12 hour refresh cycle for PVE and so on). I can admit that game now is not so bad for vets and someone like me. But for starters it is really hard - almost all top tier PVP characters are vaulted, huge character base they will never have and never max, crazy-grind play stile cultivated (because of once available true healing probably)...

I've never seen a single event topic without some complaints about death brackets, 166 wall, or too much attacks by too strong opponents "preventing" you to get even top100. Half of topics in this sub-forum are about that (one form or another, but the main subject in unchanging). I hear it a lot in ally chat. I know, people like to complain, and you can newer please everyone, but is the subject stays the same for years it must be done something about it, right?

I wonder where are all transition players here? Tired of complaining or accepted their role of wordless prey in a food chain?

Nefesh

stephen43084

I'm complaining about system, not people, I mention it everywhere.

So, you think that fighting the right size and strength opponent is a punishment? Really? Or we just have a different definition of a "fair fight"? Just to make sure.... imagine the situation when some thug comes to a kindergarten and beats 5-year old kids, is he doing good or wrong?

But I can admit that you're right about few things. I think we actually agree with each other more then we think.

First, this game exist not because of vets, but because of newbies. Newbies are the ones who bring money for devs... Vets can go without putting money in it, especially ones who built their rosters in "golden age" (you know what I'm about). They have a really huge margin, they have maxed out everyone essential to compete against everything, they could save up a lot of HP and ISO, etc. But newbies don't have anything of this. They even don't have enough for roster slots to accommodate another new character without whom they won't be able to win next event... so they start to buy covers, tokens, shields, spots... all to be able to survive here and revenge their bullies.

This current LR, My team is a loaner Elektra, 5 4 2 Patch and 5 5 3 Hood (105 level both) They just fast enough for LRs. I fought only seed teams to get above 100 points (109 or something). And now I get this (just some of attackers) Thanks for them I'm not getting even a single gray token (unless I go and beat some transitioners to regain points, which I don't like to do). Food chain, right? But I know that they didn't intentionally seek for someone weaker to target... That's "the system".

And second, I'm glad you admit another huge problem - character release rate is too fast and income is too slow.... For my opinion this release pace is the worst thing ever happened to this game. And yes, we all are in the same boat here, unless someone decides to put his half-year salary in this game That's why for transitioners every token and cover matter and when they don't get it because someone pushes just to get some more points for their ally, that's disappointing. And that's the reason this game can seize to exist faster then we can imagine... And here is all up to devs... I still like bejeweled

Nefesh

No, Devs, really, do you ever read suggestions in this forum?

After 500-600 points in PVP now every single team has 200+ X-Force, and every 5th X-Force + 4hor. Soon we will be seeing Elektra among them. And according to your (D3) statement you're going to, cite: "releasing more 4*s this year, a lot more". All those 4* who 90% of player base will never have and never max and will be just "bringing points" for those 10% who have them.

Strong 4* (not all of them are) are not bad themselves, but they make every other players who don't have them just out of the league. Especially when your MMR allows 270(+) teams attack everyone beginning from underleveled 1*.

The reality is, that in current state of the game somewhat success can have only 2 categories: vets who've been playing from the very beginning and P2W whales. Other new and "casual" players are just tinykittied... harshly. And by "casual" I mean people who spend on this game $0-100, which in some other games makes them those "P2W whales" but in this one it's only "need some more roster slots for the never-ending stream of new characters".

Your game has 2 serious problems:
1. Unfair MMR, which allows to target 3-5-10 times weaker opponents. Why not to add scale based algorithm to MMR? Like we have in PVE. For example minimum level that player can target is 80% of his highest character (or average level of his roster). So 94 level can target >=75, 166 can target >=130, 270 - >=220 or something like that. That would also prevent tanking (which is a form of cheating btw) when 270 rosters can tank that much to see only underleveled 1* teams...

2. Huge disparity between new characters and their availability for players. You release a new character every 1-2 weeks. Drop rate is getting lower every new season, even with character rotation. Now it's just 0.7% from 10+ in early stages of the game. Normally it may take months to max out just one character but we already have 57 of them. The idea to keep only someone you want is nice. But without essential character you can't play PVE and PVP which makes obligatory to have all those characters. And it must be done something about it. If you want to make so many characters you must make them either more available, or give people a real chance to choose who to keep without being kicked out of the event rotation because of that.

Unknown

Grind hard. Fight off the big fish. It always feels better winning without the hand-outs or handicaps.

Bowgentle

*sigh*

Sure, bracket us away.
But then give us prizes worth fighting for - instead of 5K ISO and 3 Hulk covers for T5, make it 25K ISO and 3 Elektra covers.
And 1 Elektra cover all the way down to T100, because it'll probably be 1200+ for T100 in those brackets.

Of course, then 2* people would complain that they don't get rewards like that in their little cupcake brackets, too.

We're only hitting 2* people in PVP because we need to get to 600, from where we duke it out amongst ourselves already.
If the game would spot me at 600 at the start of each PVP and save me the boredom of the hour-long climb to get there, I'd leave you little guys alone.

Lystrata

I think it's a bit ridiculous to down-vote / jump down the OPs throat for this post. Vets who started forever ago really have no in-game understanding of what the transition is like for new players. It's really, really tedious. And getting hit by 166 / 270 players when your best character is 80, is pretty damn demoralising. Which, from what I can ascertain from the original post, is what this is mainly about. It's not really a specific attack against any one of you in particular.

Having said that, it's also not higher levelled players' "fault" that they're hitting low level players... if they appear in your queue and have points, you attack. Simple. The amount of iso to skip until you find someone 'on level' at the early stages is a bit crazy. And stupid to think anyone should avoid hitting teams far below them, 'just to be fair'.

The main problem is that 94 level players and 270 level players are competing for the same rewards in the same brackets. And it's just going to get worse as time goes on.

Personally, I have no idea what a 'perfect solution' would be, but just felt the urge to point out that the OP isn't being super demonic. It's just a really, really frustrating time when transitioning.

TLCstormz

LOL @ comments like "little guys" and then wondering why newer people believe that the best players are snobby or evil.

Lord.....

_RiO_

Lystrata wrote:

Personally, I have no idea what a 'perfect solution' would be.

Difficulty tiers / different leagues with rewards comparable to the level of competition and the option of only entering one difficulty for the season.

Something I suggested before; I think some 9 odd months ago, when I first spotted that this would rapidly become an issue. The veteran clique at the time pushed back hard against that idea and claimed everyone else would just need to 'play harder' and get on their level, but I hope that by now they've all realized as well that the status quo is not maintainable in the longer term and that breaking out into difficulty tiers is really the only viable way to fix things. (All the things, really; the 166 wall, the broken MMR, the broken scaling, the lack of suitable rewards, etc. etc.)

FaustianDeal

Bowgentle wrote:

Sure, bracket us away.
But then give us prizes worth fighting for - instead of 5K ISO and 3 Hulk covers for T5, make it 25K ISO and 3 Elektra covers.
And 1 Elektra cover all the way down to T100, because it'll probably be 1200+ for T100 in those brackets.

Of course, then 2* people would complain that they don't get rewards like that in their little cupcake brackets, too.

I think the biggest peril of creating brackets exclusively for veterans and whales, and boosting the prizes in those brackets, is that they would need to do roster segmentation. Otherwise I can swim with the big fish for a few events and cultivate some bigger/badder characters and then come back into the small pond with the little fish and lay waste. Either the prizes won in higher tier events can't be used in lower tiers or it is only a 1-way street.

Another option would be to artificially segment the player base the way MtG does with its different tournament formats (type2 v. unlimited). Both have rules, but unlimited allows for cards from any era, while type2 limits you to the most recent release and two(?) expansions.

We have events like these.. 'Lone Star' events, 'Combined Arms', 'No Holds Barred'... the dilemma is that they are not run concurrently; and when 2 events do run concurrently players are free to enter both.

Would there be value in having different events that run concurrently:
1 - Lone Star: restricted to 1* characters
2 - Deuces Wild: roster restricted to 2* characters ('and below' being optional)
3 - Triple Threat: roster restricted to 3* characters ('and below' being optional)
4 - No Holds Barred: Anything goes
A player should probably be restricted to only entering 1 event at a time. (Or 2, but the point here is to not allow a P2W player to enter and dominate every format.)

The caveat to this type of formatting is that the 1* event would need to have lower value prizes.

1* event: Take the current prize pool and replace any 2* cover with a standard token. Replace any 3* cover with a 2* cover, and the prize for #1 becomes a 3* card (instead of a 4*).
2* event: replace the existing 2* rewards with heroic tokens. Have the top-100 be 2x heroics. Then do 3* covers for top 25 (1 cover), top 5 (2 covers), and #1 (3 covers)
3* event: looks like the current event prize structure. (but replace the 2* awards with heroic tokens, for the love of god)
4* event: could give 2x heroic tokens instead of 2* cover. Give 2x Event token for top 100. Then give 4* covers for top 25 (1 cover), top 5 (2 covers), and #1 (3 covers) -- (or have #2 get 3 covers and #1 gets 4 covers).

These prizes create a clear progression path for players to grow. The prizes are (hopefully) structured in a way that keeps the big fish out of the small ponds (and even if the big fish still go into the small pond they can't bring the top tiers of their roster so the playing field is slightly more level).

I am not sure how to rationalize this into alliance and season scoring though... since points in the super-heavyweight division will likely be much harder to come by. Maybe these are events that run outside the season format... like during a bye week until they figure out how to get it to play with alliances..

_RiO_

FaustianDeal wrote:

I am not sure how to rationalize this into alliance and season scoring though... since points in the super-heavyweight division will likely be much harder to come by. Maybe these are events that run outside the season format... like during a bye week until they figure out how to get it to play with alliances..

I don't believe points would be 'harder to come by' for the heavy-weights. When everyone competes mostly in their own weight class, I expect point gains would stabilize across the weight classes as well.

esoxnepa

Bowgentle wrote:

*sigh*

Sure, bracket us away.
But then give us prizes worth fighting for - instead of 5K ISO and 3 Hulk covers for T5, make it 25K ISO and 3 Elektra covers.
And 1 Elektra cover all the way down to T100, because it'll probably be 1200+ for T100 in those brackets.

Of course, then 2* people would complain that they don't get rewards like that in their little cupcake brackets, too.

We're only hitting 2* people in PVP because we need to get to 600, from where we duke it out amongst ourselves already.
If the game would spot me at 600 at the start of each PVP and save me the boredom of the hour-long climb to get there, I'd leave you little guys alone.

I think you're very close on what they need to do, but I don't think they need to fully bracket you away. The game has grown, and they need a way to keep the established players interested, and make transitioning 2*-3* less frustrating. (Their bracketing/sharding system tries to separate players, but does this in a bad way.)

Having something like 3 levels of each PvP event with significantly different rewards. Let people join any of them, but make the rewards different enough that full 3* and 4* rosters won't have any interest in the lower brackets.

So say top 5 of the "normal" event would be like placing top 100 of the "elite" event, but then also have rewards for those missing the top 100 of the elite event be enough HP/ISO to make it far more profitable for the advanced roster players to fight for a top 250 "elite" than having any interest in a top 5 "normal." Also do things like up the ISO won per match to insure you have little interest farming the normal event for ISO when you can gain more in the elite events.

Hopefully D3 will see the game is reaching a more mature status, and needs to expand beyond just offering a 4* transition and causing the 3* transition to become super ultra quick like the 1*-2* transition.

_RiO_

esoxnepa wrote:

Having something like 3 levels of each PvP event with significantly different rewards. Let people join any of them, but make the rewards different enough that full 3* and 4* rosters won't have any interest in the lower brackets.

So say top 5 of the "normal" event would be like placing top 100 of the "elite" event, but then also have rewards for those missing the top 100 of the elite event be enough HP/ISO to make it far more profitable for the advanced roster players to fight for a top 250 "elite" than having any interest in a top 5 "normal." Also do things like up the ISO won per match to insure you have little interest farming the normal event for ISO when you can gain more in the elite events.

I don't think that would work as well as you'd think. There are always those that would rather choose to 'play it safe' on a lower tier with an easy win. You'd need some kind of way to avoid this type of cherry-picking of rewards from lower tiers and force players to choose based on their average roster strength and skill instead of on convenience. That's why I suggest to make the cross-over point to a different league a one-time selection moment inbetween running seasons. You pick your difficulty and you're stuck with that for the whole season, no matter the events and event rewards that may come up.