A new character? Really? Again?

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  • My Daken, BP, and Deadpool all really need covers to hit cap. My Thor and Magneto need covers to respec. You know what's really nice about releasing the guardians of the galaxy right now? It just became that much harder to get them, and it just became that much less likely that they'd be featured in a PvP or PvE. icon_e_smile.gif

    And then you get this from the Q&A:
    Q: Why so many new characters lately?
    A: OK, so we’ve definitely stepped up the number of characters that are coming out recently. We’ve had a lot of characters requested this year, and on top of that, we’ve had our own pet characters to work on. We tend to get a bit excited about making new characters, but that’s because we think new characters are awesome! Having such a wide array of playable characters is one of the things that makes Marvel Puzzle Quest stand out. New characters means new allies, new enemies, new abilities! New characters inspire new PVE and Versus Events and spice up older ones.

    The Marvel Universe is enormous and encompasses an insane variety of characters and we want to make sure our game has that same feeling.

    ...Do the devs play this game at all? Yeah, new characters are awesome. But stop pretending there's no downside. Each new character waters down the pool of available characters. It makes it harder to keep up. It means another PvP where only **** whales get to run a real 3-man team (which is gonna get real freakin' obnoxious real freakin' quick once the end of sentry makes this a real issue at the 3* range). It makes the already-daunting task of finishing the 3* transition even more impossible, even if you completely ignore the new characters and just focus on the old. Between this and the moonstone response, I'm starting to wonder if you people even playtest your ****.
  • My Daken, BP, and Deadpool all really need covers to hit cap. My Thor and Magneto need covers to respec. You know what's really nice about releasing the guardians of the galaxy right now? It just became that much harder to get them, and it just became that much less likely that they'd be featured in a PvP or PvE. icon_e_smile.gif

    And then you get this from the Q&A:
    Q: Why so many new characters lately?
    A: OK, so we’ve definitely stepped up the number of characters that are coming out recently. We’ve had a lot of characters requested this year, and on top of that, we’ve had our own pet characters to work on. We tend to get a bit excited about making new characters, but that’s because we think new characters are awesome! Having such a wide array of playable characters is one of the things that makes Marvel Puzzle Quest stand out. New characters means new allies, new enemies, new abilities! New characters inspire new PVE and Versus Events and spice up older ones.

    The Marvel Universe is enormous and encompasses an insane variety of characters and we want to make sure our game has that same feeling.

    ...Do the devs play this game at all? Yeah, new characters are awesome. But stop pretending there's no downside. Each new character waters down the pool of available characters. It makes it harder to keep up. It means another PvP where only tinykitty whales get to run a real 3-man team (which is gonna get real freakin' obnoxious real freakin' quick once the end of sentry makes this a real issue at the 3* range). It makes the already-daunting task of finishing the 3* transition even more impossible, even if you completely ignore the new characters and just focus on the old. Between this and the moonstone response, I'm starting to wonder if you people even playtest your tinykitty.

    That answer from David was the typical **** I thought we would never read again after he was hired.

    Someone mentioned David is a sock puppet. I'm sorry to say he truly is considering all the **** we had in the November Q&A...
  • The game is designed for the REALLY long end game. It's not designed to say "oh, here's <insert 3* character>, use them immediately." If the goal is to have a character playable from the word go, then having a tier level at all wouldn't make much sense, nor would the way they release characters (1-4 covers at a time).

    I couldn't agree more and I'm arguing that's one of the major problems with the 3* design. It shouldn't be that way at all.

    In fact, I'd say that they should go so far as to even out the leveling for covers so that it doesn't take at least 7-8 covers to get a 3* on par or higher than a 2*. Each cover should increase the level cap by an even 10 levels no matter what color it is and regardless of how many covers you have in that cover currently - raising the level cap to 170. Then they should scale match and cover power damage to outperform a 2* at the same level as a max level 2*. That would mean that getting 6 covers is enough to make a 3* playable which would make most 3*s infinitely more playable than they are now.

    Given my druthers, I'd even go one step further and say that having even one 3* cover should be better than the loaner that you get when given the character during an event. In addition, having all three powers right away is just more fun and makes far more sense. As such, I'd redo covering such that the first time you get a 3*, it gives you all three powers at level 1 and then you cover up to a total of 15 in all three powers.
    An underleveled 3* should be worse than a 2* character, to allow for some sense of transition. If a 3/2/1 lvl 94 Patch were better than max Ares, why would anyone bother collecting 2* characters at all? Just use the free 1*s to grind PvE until you have enough to use the 3* characters. FWIW, this is true at 1->2* transition too. A level 50 IM35 is better than most level 50 2* characters, especially if 50 is the soft cap of your 2*. The strength of all characters in the game is relative to the number of covers you have, not really the level number.

    This is complete reductio ad absurdum. Why would you ever collect 2*s? There are plenty of reasons, but primary to most people would be because without a 2* roster it would take you twice as long to get a 3* roster due to the fact that you can't be competitive in pvp. Which is true no matter whether 3*s outperform 2*s at equal level or not. Why don't people do this already?

    Soft capping is totally different than what I'm talking about. Actually, with soft capping, a 3* can outperform a 2* at equal level. As my example was a BP that needed 3 covers in RotP to outperform Ares at 94, if it had 5 covers and I soft capped BP at 94, or especially if I had him 13 covered and soft capped, he would be a better character than Ares except for the hit points. So yeah, don't mix the two concepts. I'm trying to make characters more playable sooner.
    Lastly, the average player is not worried about the transition, end game, roster slots, etc. The average forumite is. There's a chasm difference between the two. In PvP, people complain that 500-600 isn't good enough for top 100. Ok, there are 500 players in the bracket. That means 80% of the player base isn't hitting 500-600. I'd venture that more than 50% doesn't even hit 300. They're not worried about this stuff. They're playing a match-3 game with characters they like.

    I agree that the average forumite is not representative of the average player. Other than that, I totally disagree. The number one thing the average player is worried about is roster slots and "end game" in so far as they care about how many characters they can collect and what use they are. Guaranteed.

    Yeah, they're playing a match game with characters they like but if the characters suck and it takes so long for them to not suck that it's deflating they'll quit. In addition, If they can't even collect all of the characters they want for a reasonable price then they're gonna put the game down when they get sick of of losing in PVP because they don't have the right characters and PVE because they can't collect all the characters they need for essentials.

    That is my ultimate argument. Most of the 3*s suck if you're ONLY playing for the end game (which you said the game was designed towards). Most of the 3*s suck even when fully leveled versus other 3*s (namely, why have most 3*s except for Hood, Sentry and Daken anyway if you're just playing for the end game?). Most of the 3*s suck with less than 9 covers and suck versus a 2* roster even when they do. Overall, most of the 3*s just suck in so many ways that it's not worth getting them and they just keep adding more. I'm looking to change that in as many ways as possible.
    There are way too many characters being released right now, on that point I agree. But the reason that's a problem is not their playability at low levels. It's:
    -They're at a point, with 56 characters + more on the way, that roster spot costs are completely overpriced, especially relative to the rate of available HP.
    -That the ratio of available ISO relative to the # of characters in the game gets lower with every release, with no adjustment done to address that for new players.
    -The characters they've released might be 'clever' or 'fun,' but they've done nothing to move the metagame even an inch.

    I agree with all your points but disagree that they are mutually exclusive to mine. I would say it's additive.
  • GrumpySmurf1002
    GrumpySmurf1002 Posts: 3,511 Chairperson of the Boards
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    noone_ wrote:
    This is complete reductio ad absurdum. Why would you ever collect 2*s? There are plenty of reasons, but primary to most people would be because without a 2* roster it would take you twice as long to get a 3* roster due to the fact that you can't be competitive in pvp. Which is true no matter whether 3*s outperform 2*s at equal level or not. Why don't people do this already?

    Soft capping is totally different than what I'm talking about. Actually, with soft capping, a 3* can outperform a 2* at equal level. As my example was a BP that needed 3 covers in RotP to outperform Ares at 94, if it had 5 covers and I soft capped BP at 94, or especially if I had him 13 covered and soft capped, he would be a better character than Ares except for the hit points. So yeah, don't mix the two concepts. I'm trying to make characters more playable sooner.

    If 5-6 covers is good enough to match a 2* under your various scenarios, then that can be accomplished without PvP. If you dedicated your life as a 1* to PvE, you could get the 3 covers + progression in the following event, which gets you 4 right off the bat. That would give you a theoretical level 80 3* character (under the 10 per cover premise), which would be only slightly weaker than a max 2* (which you've balanced where 94 3* > 94 2*). You no longer need 2* characters, because your underleveled 3* will be roughly as strong, and certainly be able to compete on a similar level in PvP to what 2*s experience now. All it would take is a top 100 finish to get the extra cover, which now brings you to level 90 for a 3*, and if 94-3 > 94-2, 90-3 is going to be awfully darn close to being superior.

    Soft-capping is not possible with a max-covered character. Soft capping is leveling as high as possible given the covers owned. If you have 13-covers, you're maxing the character. I suppose technically it's a soft cap of 166, but it's also the hard-cap.

    As a side note, I took all of my 'usable in the foreseeable future' 3* characters to 94 as soon as I could: Sentry, Thor, Daken, Patch, Torch, Panther, Psylocke, Hood, all running around with my other 94s. They do less match damage in off-colors than their counterparts, but they're every bit as usable to play 2* land with.
  • If 5-6 covers is good enough to match a 2* under your various scenarios, then that can be accomplished without PvP.

    Dude, you're not getting it, this is possible already and people don't do it. Stop conflating the two points. People don't do this now because it's not as effective in getting 3* covers and isn't fun to not collect as many characters as possible.
    If you dedicated your life as a 1* to PvE, you could get the 3 covers + progression in the following event, which gets you 4 right off the bat. That would give you a theoretical level 80 3* character (under the 10 per cover premise), which would be only slightly weaker than a max 2* (which you've balanced where 94 3* > 94 2*). You no longer need 2* characters, because your underleveled 3* will be roughly as strong, and certainly be able to compete on a similar level in PvP to what 2*s experience now. All it would take is a top 100 finish to get the extra cover, which now brings you to level 90 for a 3*, and if 94-3 > 94-2, 90-3 is going to be awfully darn close to being superior.

    What kinda weird leap is that in logic? 4 covers per event leaves you 2 covers short of potentially obsoleting a 3* which wouldn't necessarily happen because most 3*s are not worthy characters, are support characters or even in the new model would just be equally as useful creating more sustained play times because you have more viable characters. That's like saying that because someone gets 2* Thor max leveled, their max leveled Ares is now obsolete. Does that make any sense?

    And who's getting 4 covers for one character per event? Not more than 20% of all players...
    Soft-capping is not possible with a max-covered character. Soft capping is leveling as high as possible given the covers owned. If you have 13-covers, you're maxing the character. I suppose technically it's a soft cap of 166, but it's also the hard-cap.

    Uhhhhhh, I think I've lost my mind because I'm pretty sure the definition of soft-capping is purposefully NOT leveling a character as high as possible given the covers you have. Pretty sure you've got the exact wrong definition in your head unless someone would like to correct me.
  • noone_ wrote:
    - This undercuts the motivation for even getting a 3* in the first place unless you're willing to play for the REALLY long end game, get in a top alliance that's outperforming you or are willing to spend a ton of money.

    I'm pretty sure that in the chase for 3*s you should want to use them as soon as possible, that's what makes it fun to get new characters in the first place. I would say that comparing a 3* that has enough covers to be leveled to 94 should not underperform but should in all cases OUTPERFORM a 2* 94 considering they cost a premium versus 2*s. One of my points is that they almost always underperform which is a bad omen for the game's longevity and speaks volumes of how poorly designed most characters are.

    So yeah, can't agree with you at all when looking at the average player.

    Trimmed this down to focus on these points.

    The game is designed for the REALLY long end game. It's not designed to say "oh, here's <insert 3* character>, use them immediately." If the goal is to have a character playable from the word go, then having a tier level at all wouldn't make much sense, nor would the way they release characters (1-4 covers at a time).

    An underleveled 3* should be worse than a 2* character, to allow for some sense of transition. If a 3/2/1 lvl 94 Patch were better than max Ares, why would anyone bother collecting 2* characters at all? Just use the free 1*s to grind PvE until you have enough to use the 3* characters. FWIW, this is true at 1->2* transition too. A level 50 IM35 is better than most level 50 2* characters, especially if 50 is the soft cap of your 2*. The strength of all characters in the game is relative to the number of covers you have, not really the level number.

    Lastly, the average player is not worried about the transition, end game, roster slots, etc. The average forumite is. There's a chasm difference between the two. In PvP, people complain that 500-600 isn't good enough for top 100. Ok, there are 500 players in the bracket. That means 80% of the player base isn't hitting 500-600. I'd venture that more than 50% doesn't even hit 300. They're not worried about this stuff. They're playing a match-3 game with characters they like.

    There are way too many characters being released right now, on that point I agree. But the reason that's a problem is not their playability at low levels. It's:
    -They're at a point, with 56 characters + more on the way, that roster spot costs are completely overpriced, especially relative to the rate of available HP.
    -That the ratio of available ISO relative to the # of characters in the game gets lower with every release, with no adjustment done to address that for new players.
    -The characters they've released might be 'clever' or 'fun,' but they've done nothing to move the metagame even an inch.

    Now, the last part is probably a forumite problem too, and considering the amount of forumites with even 100 posts is under 500 players, this is a (very vocal) minority of the player base.

    I have to disagree with one thing; roster slots are an issue for everyone. Roster slots became an issue for me 2 months into the game and that was in December 2013. It's no different today since I don't have any roster spots and need another 200 HP to get one.

    This is a conscious effort by D3; I don't know why they have to be so evasive (see the recent Q&A) and can't just say new characters and roster spots are a large source of $$$.
  • MarvelMan
    MarvelMan Posts: 1,350
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    noone_ wrote:
    And who's getting 4 covers for one character per event? Not more than 20% of all players...
    1*s have a FAR easier time getting the PVE rewards and progressions, so if you "dedicated your life as a 1* to PvE, you could get the 3 covers + progression in the following event." Check out the leaderboards in the PVEs again.
    noone_ wrote:
    Soft-capping is not possible with a max-covered character. Soft capping is leveling as high as possible given the covers owned. If you have 13-covers, you're maxing the character. I suppose technically it's a soft cap of 166, but it's also the hard-cap.

    Uhhhhhh, I think I've lost my mind because I'm pretty sure the definition of soft-capping is purposefully NOT leveling a character as high as possible given the covers you have. Pretty sure you've got the exact wrong definition in your head unless someone would like to correct me.


    Soft-capping is taking a character to the max level for the covers you have so Grumpy is, again, correct.

    *Edit: noone_: youre thinking of underleveling.
  • MarvelMan wrote:
    noone_ wrote:
    And who's getting 4 covers for one character per event? Not more than 20% of all players...
    1*s have a FAR easier time getting the PVE rewards and progressions, so if you "dedicated your life as a 1* to PvE, you could get the 3 covers + progression in the following event." Check out the leaderboards in the PVEs again.

    I do check the leaderboards and in every bracket I've been in for the last two months the top of the leaderboards is ALWAYS people with high level 3* rosters by the end of the event. In addition, personal scaling should prevent anyone with any particular roster composition from outperforming anyone else. So whatever your roster is, as long as you don't have one really high level character as compared to the rest of your roster, you should be having about an equal time with a 3* as a 1*. Or am I completely confused about how PVE works?

    I will also say that my "not more than 20% of all players" still holds true because you're talking about a top placing finish to get those covers so I'm not really sure how he's right at all on this one.
    MarvelMan wrote:
    Soft-capping is taking a character to the max level for the covers you have so Grumpy is, again, correct.

    *Edit: noone_: youre thinking of underleveling.

    You're both right, my bad. I was using the wrong term completely.
  • MarvelMan
    MarvelMan Posts: 1,350
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    noone_ wrote:
    Or am I completely confused about how PVE works?

    Youre thinking of the way it *SHOULD* work. =)

    Unfortunately, I often see rosters with soft-capped 1*s and 2*s in the top 10 for PVE. Its gotten a bit better recently, now that they are basing AI level more on roster strength (although its had a nasty effect on me due to high chars that arent available).
  • lukewin
    lukewin Posts: 1,356 Chairperson of the Boards
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    FYI, a 1/1/1 3* is softcapped at level 45. I think any combo of 1/1/0 is level 43. Any combinations of 1/1/2 is level 55. Any combinations of 1/2/2 are level 66. I know this because I've gained a lot of the new characters thru Top 2 finishes in PVE, and have them maxed at their current covers. Any 1/2/2 combo that I have got the 5th cover from PVP. So these 3* characters really aren't viable for anything at this level.
  • MarvelMan wrote:
    noone_ wrote:
    Or am I completely confused about how PVE works?

    Youre thinking of the way it *SHOULD* work. =)

    Unfortunately, I often see rosters with soft-capped 1*s and 2*s in the top 10 for PVE. Its gotten a bit better recently, now that they are basing AI level more on roster strength (although its had a nasty effect on me due to high chars that arent available).

    The reason why it is a little easier for 1&2 * teams is the buffing. 3stars get 30 levels or about 18% of a lvl166. A 2star gets 40 levels or about 43% of a lvl94. That's advantage 1.

    Most two star players have lots of lvl94 characters. Many 3 star players have a handful of lvl166 so many characters are scaled out of the difficult levels. That's advantage 2.

    Low level characters heal faster if your scaling is low enough to use them. That's advantage 3.

    Those are the reasons entry level players have a pve advantage in general. That said a deep roster and knowledge of working combinations overcome those advantages if you are willing to put in the time. That is why the top can still have many 3 star players but in general the 1 and 2 star players finish much stronger in pve than pvp
  • papa07 wrote:
    The reason why it is a little easier for 1&2 * teams is the buffing. 3stars get 30 levels or about 18% of a lvl166. A 2star gets 40 levels or about 43% of a lvl94. That's advantage 1.

    Most two star players have lots of lvl94 characters. Many 3 star players have a handful of lvl166 so many characters are scaled out of the difficult levels. That's advantage 2.

    Low level characters heal faster if your scaling is low enough to use them. That's advantage 3.

    Those are the reasons entry level players have a pve advantage in general. That said a deep roster and knowledge of working combinations overcome those advantages if you are willing to put in the time. That is why the top can still have many 3 star players but in general the 1 and 2 star players finish much stronger in pve than pvp

    It sounds like that means it's easier for 2* teams, not 1* but I digress. Not having a strong 3* roster myself, I didn't realize the level boosting discrepancy although I realized the healing was out of whack. Man this game is SO poorly designed.