Unstable ISO-8: Fix the incentives and offer an alternative

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gamar wrote:

Phantron wrote:

If leveling characters doesn't give you an advantage why even have levels or covers? If the goal is for everything to be fair then characters should be more like Street Fighter where everyone has the same stats regardless of when you played the game. Since the game clearly doesn't work like this and that it costs considerable time/money to get your characters one has to assume there has to be some kind of advantage to be gained.

Because people like to collect stuff, and collecting stuff keeps the game from getting stale. It's just a carrot, you don't get any more "powerful" for collecting all the flags in Assassin's Creed, either

I mean, all the veterans discussing this right now have a roster of maxed 3*s and 4*s including maxed sentry, maxed ldaken, maxed hood... you could get automatic first place in every event and not get any more "powerful." And the event under question is giving a freaking TWO STAR CHARACTER. And a BAD one at that. So if it's all about "gaining an advantage" why would you even care about winning ANY events at this point?

Progression can't be detrimental or there's literally no reason why you should even be allowed to leveled up your characters if it means things get worse.

I'm fine if a PvE event applies a Balance of Power type powerup (every character you have is now level 270). Would make my roster feel pretty pointless, but I'm not at a disadvantage for having these characters leveled. I don't think people with max roster are entitled to anything but they should not face a harder than usual path. The character involved being weak is not the point, and indeed if it was someone who was actually good it'd be even worse because your usual extra hardcore tricks will probably get countered with increased prize desireability (mostly boost vs boost) but the scaling becomes absolute at some point (even boosts have a hard time overcoming level 395 guys).

To use PvP as a comparison, I have no problem being matched up with guys with max level character for all 3 slots, because I got the same thing. Sure I'd like to have some free wins but fighting a team equally strong sounds fair to me. What's not fair is if the game starts matching me up against BaconMaster who has a level 300 version of the popular PvP teams.

Spoit

SunCrusher wrote:

At this point, I'm confused as to your messages. -I- would be expecting your experiences to be pretty spot on for level 395s. Die some, win some, have to use a few Health Packs, move on. Unless, of course, you're expecting to slug it through such high levels and without dying, ever, and with taking minimal damage? That seems to be your message at any rate.

Actually, yes that's kind of what they expect you to do in PvE, ever since they changed it to 2.5 hour refreshes. 5 are just under enough to be able to wipe a grand total of twice per refresh, or more realistically, wipe once and then heal your main tank character twice (e.g. LC in this most recent pve). Because with the way the healing works, if one of your characters that are actually leveled up dies, they're not going to be back to a usable amount of health for at least 2 more refreshes (5 hours) unless you use a health pack. Tanky characters like LT? well you're pretty much waiting until the whole next day to use him without a health pack

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If they start sharding pve based on roster strength, im going to blame all of you.

I hope that's the response. TL;DR

Unknown

I didn't think about the healing issue but yeah that's another advantage for lower level characters. Let's for the sake of argument saying someone running a 2* and a base level featured character 3* has exactly balanced opponents versus a max roster. Captain America has roughly 4 times the health at level 166 compared to 40. It takes about 6 hours for him to recover from 1 to full HP. If he is downed, it takes 7 hours or so for the max roster to recover versus 2.5 hours (1 hour down + 1.5 hours to heal). Now that's not too bad but what if he wasn't downed? Let's say he takes 50% damage. If he's maxed it'd take him 3 hours to recover, while if he's at base level he'd only need 45 minutes. The latter is an amount you can definitely wait or rotate some character around, while the former is not. Yes the base level Captain America might be a bit weaker due to a lack of covers, but the +90 levels already helps the lower level character more proportionally. Even on a character that heals fast, like The Hood (because he has very few HP to heal in the first place), it's about 3 hours and you can't just wait 1.5 hours after he takes a couple match damage. Again, even if the transition roster had identical difficulty relatively, his character will need less time to heal in between fights.

Now someone with a developed roster could use different characters, but once the scaling gets to a certain point your team is going to usually look like The Hood + featured + your most powerful green user if the featured character is any good, and if not you might have slightly more options though your chance of winning will be significantly lower. The Hood alone will consistently eat up your health pack unless you have a guy who can tank for all of The Hood's color, and if you do that guy's going to eat up most of your health packs. Since fighting ultra high level guys without The Hood is almost a nonstarter you're often limited to at most 5 heals on The Hood regardless of who else you got. Realistically you're generally limited by the featured character in addition to The Hood because of his requirement and that if he's any good you definitely need his +90 levels to have a chance fighting the insane level opponents. For example in Unstable Iso 8 you have to keep Captain America healed up in any non good battles because you sure will need his firepower and tanking ability to beat the level 300+ guys, and not using him will likely lead to failure.

Bowgentle

SunCrusher wrote:

I personally think, though, that the situation on a whole needs a work-through and not just on the higher end of things. Problem is, I personally can't really think of a not-so-complicated way to tackle such an issue. There's the newbies grabbing top rewards, but there's also the late-joiners grabbing all the rewards for minimal effort. There's the scaling going crazy for people like you, but the scaling sure isn't doing me any favors, either, even though I'm transitional and I've been regularly wiping out and using the free Health Packs.

Well, I wouldn't call this "minimum effort"

Yes, I and half the forum joined the Djacket (Django bracket - 4 of us in T10) with about 24 hours to go and skipped the event until then. So, yes, time-wise it was the minimum effort.

Difficulty-wise, though... we had to slog through 300+ enemies from the second clear onwards. I used about 10K ISO in boosts because I had to boost every fight (well, almost). I still wiped a fair amount of times.

So yes, our rosters allow us to join events with mega RB late and still succeed. Doesn't mean it's easy though.

Is it because everyone else is heavily gaming the meta and I'm not and so I'm stuck somewhere in this whole mess completely aside from everyone else? Is everyone else's MMR so low that they're getting stuck with the newbies while my MMR is so high I'm seeing you guys/guys of the full 3* roster caliber at the top all the time?

There's no way to "game the meta" in PVE anymore except for joining late - and even then you can get a bracket that has been open for ages without any chance at top prizes.

You've mentioned a few times now that you think people are deliberately dying on easy nodes to get their enemy levels down - let me tell you, this does not work.
I've wiped at least a dozen times during the final 24 hours and never saw any enemy levels go down, only up.
So, no, people are not gaming their MMR, because that's not possible.

I start with mega-scaling simply due to the fact I have a fully leveled 4*. There's no way to mitigate that.
Thankfully, in events like these, where I can use all my chars, it's somewhat fair to have scaling that high - because boosted LC, X-Force and Hood with +3 in all colours with ISO boosts eats every node for breakfast.

I'm ok with higher scaling - I'm ok with boosting every match in PVE for 24 hours.

In the next event with subs I won't be doing that because it's not sustainable, but there scaling gets reset again.

Yes, PVEs are harder for veterans, and that's ok - we can get covers from PVP more easily.

Transition rosters are screwed both here and in PVP. Yes, they should do something about that.

Just ignore everything Phantron says, all that non-boosting to save ISO (for what?) has made him go loopy.

SunCrusher

Bowgentle wrote:

SunCrusher wrote:

I personally think, though, that the situation on a whole needs a work-through and not just on the higher end of things. Problem is, I personally can't really think of a not-so-complicated way to tackle such an issue. There's the newbies grabbing top rewards, but there's also the late-joiners grabbing all the rewards for minimal effort. There's the scaling going crazy for people like you, but the scaling sure isn't doing me any favors, either, even though I'm transitional and I've been regularly wiping out and using the free Health Packs.

Well, I wouldn't call this "minimum effort"

Yes, I and half the forum joined the Djacket (Django bracket - 4 of us in T10) with about 24 hours to go and skipped the event until then. So, yes, time-wise it was the minimum effort.

Difficulty-wise, though... we had to slog through 300+ enemies from the second clear onwards. I used about 10K ISO in boosts because I had to boost every fight (well, almost). I still wiped a fair amount of times.

So yes, our rosters allow us to join events with mega RB late and still succeed. Doesn't mean it's easy though.

Is it because everyone else is heavily gaming the meta and I'm not and so I'm stuck somewhere in this whole mess completely aside from everyone else? Is everyone else's MMR so low that they're getting stuck with the newbies while my MMR is so high I'm seeing you guys/guys of the full 3* roster caliber at the top all the time?

There's no way to "game the meta" in PVE anymore except for joining late - and even then you can get a bracket that has been open for ages without any chance at top prizes.

You've mentioned a few times now that you think people are deliberately dying on easy nodes to get their enemy levels down - let me tell you, this does not work.
I've wiped at least a dozen times during the final 24 hours and never saw any enemy levels go down, only up.
So, no, people are not gaming their MMR, because that's not possible.

I start with mega-scaling simply due to the fact I have a fully leveled 4*. There's no way to mitigate that.
Thankfully, in events like these, where I can use all my chars, it's somewhat fair to have scaling that high - because boosted LC, X-Force and Hood with +3 in all colours with ISO boosts eats every node for breakfast.

I'm ok with higher scaling - I'm ok with boosting every match in PVE for 24 hours.

In the next event with subs I won't be doing that because it's not sustainable, but there scaling gets reset again.

Yes, PVEs are harder for veterans, and that's ok - we can get covers from PVP more easily.

Transition rosters are screwed both here and in PVP. Yes, they should do something about that.

Just ignore everything Phantron says, all that non-boosting to save ISO (for what?) has made him go loopy.

Seriously, thank you for explaining the bit about joining late and what it entails; that makes a ton more sense than just 'joining late and grabbing the prizes'. Even without joining late, I'm already having to use Boosts from time to time so I can only imagine what people have to do when faced with Hard and Deadly nodes from the get-go.

Also - and I'm definitely not trying to pick a fight - there's been -so- much talk about 'gaming the meta' in regards to the MMR and scaling and whatnot across the board over the time I've been here that it's hard to imagine that it's -not- working if there's that much talk going on that it -does- work. Recent conversations within the last few weeks that eventually brought up tanking/deliberately losing etc. have 'confirmed' that tanking still works so I kind of assumed it was still working.

If it's not working anymore, then well. So much for that!

But thank you for explaining; I appreciate that.

Bowgentle

SunCrusher wrote:

Also - and I'm definitely not trying to pick a fight - there's been -so- much talk about 'gaming the meta' in regards to the MMR and scaling and whatnot across the board over the time I've been here that it's hard to imagine that it's -not- working if there's that much talk going on that it -does- work. Recent conversations within the last few weeks that eventually brought up tanking/deliberately losing etc. have 'confirmed' that tanking still works so I kind of assumed it was still working.

If it's not working anymore, then well. So much for that!

But thank you for explaining; I appreciate that.

You're welcome

Oh, tanking _does_ work - but only in PVP, not in PVE.
So in PVP you can tank your way up to 600 and sit there unshielded with a good roster - after that it's 270/166/166 all the way though.

Spoit

Bowgentle wrote:

Just ignore everything Phantron says, all that non-boosting to save ISO (for what?) has made him go loopy.

Nah, he was loopy even before his current obsession with boosts. (but seriously, in one thread he goes on an on about the futility of trying to get ISO if you boost, but at the exact same time in another thread, he goes on and on about how you need to boost all day, errday)

Unknown

Cshack27 wrote:

TLDR: maxed out players SHOULDN'T be the ones winning PVE

At the risk of going against the majority opinion, let me provide a different perspective.

PVE is vital for the long-term sustainability of MPQ in that it hooks new players and keeps transitioning players engaged. If the scales weren't tipped to favor newer players this game would die pretty quickly. If max players like the ones on this forum won PVE all the time then the new players would never experience the rush of competing and doing well, and would likely quit early on. Scaling is d3's tool of doing this.

I started playing in July during the Ms. Marvel PVE. I was running IM35 and 1* Hawkeye. I didn't have Ms. Marvel, so I couldn't do the essentials until I hit the progression reward for her. But I took second in my bracket and won IW and 3 Hood covers. My roster was utter newbie garbage, but I felt a big sense of accomplishment and decided I really liked this game.

I'm still playing, and now provide 2* --> 3* transition fodder for all you big boys. You need people like me to keep hitting your high scores, and we all in turn need the new players. They need an incentive to play, and PVE is just that. Complaining that you're not winning PVE on top of your regular dominance of PVP is shortsighted and elitist. Think about the bigger picture.

Strong arguments. I want to see your opinion after you get your first 3* at 130+ levels.

And you completely left out the fact that new characters are introduced form PVE and then they are essential for the next PVE and so on and so forth. I agree that it PVE favors low roster but it punishes progression. There is a big issue that needs to be discussed here and that is the rewards.

As you can see, PVE rewards are mixed with covers that developed rosters don't need but you have a 4* in the 1st rank. I'm pretty sure many developed rosters want that 4* so they are willing to go for it. And any time that the rewards are desirable (Upcoming Blade release) top ranks will be filled with developed rosters. Here is where The Gauntlet did a good job and fixed that for us. It completely took out rank rewards, but it also had a very challenging 3rd part and very unrewarding too. If they find a balance between rewards and difficulty you have a win-win situation here.

However, if you run PVE with in a competitive style, of course developed rosters SHOULD have an advantage. They have worked for it and many have also paid for it. If you want PVE for low level roster then divide PVEs into two: PVE that 2* and lower chars allowed and PVE that 3* and above are allowed. Put there the appropriate rewards and fixed. As it stands though, PVE is the main (and only) way for new characters to come in. I don't see how this is supposed to be only for low level roster and transitioners. So why should I, that I have worked so much to develop my roster, have to face double or triple the difficulty of a low level roster in order to get the same reward? Sounds broken to me.

Unknown

In the last PvEs, only the smaller rosters and Alliances with members having a smaller rosters took the 1st spots...

I could not compete much myself for the 1st spot because you can't fight lvl 395 characters (especially Daken/Bullseye), so I completely gave up these nodes...

Until the scaling is fixed, I will have no way of competing in a PvE. Though it is easier for me to rank high in a PvE like Unstable ISO-8 than Deadpool or PvEs with subs.

SunCrusher

I think I need to start taking screenshots of MY PvEs because I'M not seeing what everyone else is apparently seeing.

Where's my turn to place top 5 consistently in PvEs as a 2* transitional player?

I'm joking and being a bit of a grouch and honestly, I'm perfectly fine with placing behind the big guys with the big strong rosters, but from the frequency of this happening, it seriously sounds like I ought to be doing WAY, WAY, WAAAAAY better than I am right now what with snagging the last hanging fruit needed for the next Essential character.

Either they're doing something totally right or I'm doing something totally wrong or... hey, maybe I'M actually in a bracket that's showing what normally should happen?

HailMary

Okin107 wrote:

However, if you run PVE with in a competitive style, of course developed rosters SHOULD have an advantage. They have worked for it and many have also paid for it. If you want PVE for low level roster then divide PVEs into two: PVE that 2* and lower chars allowed and PVE that 3* and above are allowed. Put there the appropriate rewards and fixed. As it stands though, PVE is the main (and only) way for new characters to come in. I don't see how this is supposed to be only for low level roster and transitioners. So why should I, that I have worked so much to develop my roster, have to face double or triple the difficulty of a low level roster in order to get the same reward? Sounds broken to me.

You seem to be using the same false dichotomy that Phantron did (albeit more succinctly): "either the game absolutely rewards roster strength in every way, or it absolutely punishes progression in every way." PVP already rewards high-level rosters. PVE gives the little guys a somewhat better chance. As someone with a L222 XF and 10 L166s, I'm perfectly fine with this. PVE is clearly not only for lowbies and transitioners, either, since the late-entry Djacket's T10 was dominated by multi-L166 players, and I've hit personal T5/T10 in every PVE in which I've actually tried. PVE is also not at all "the only way" for new characters to come in. It is merely the earliest. A PVP featuring the newly introduced covers as rewards always closely follows a new-char PVE. The 5DeadlyBanes alliance explicitly swears off of PVEs, choosing to get new characters solely through PVP, since PVP is far more richly rewarding for a given time commitment.

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