Shields in PvP are now the expectation?

Unknown

They've definitely changed the matchmaking. The wall of 166s (also known as the boring time) hits earlier, and seems more total - it used to come on kind of gradually, but I think now is complete by latest 700, maybe even 600. North of 700, 95% of what I see is 166/270 teams worth less than 25 points. The other 5% is 166/270 teams worth over 25.

atomzed

Nivrax wrote:

That would be true if it was gradual change. But it was very sharp turn in PvP for me. It both came in same time as new season and me leveling single 3* to 91 so 'maybe' it was always that stupid to begin with, but now I'm fighting trash teams up to 400 (unmaxed, 3* lvl40 etc.), some same level stuff to 500, then I'm getting full 3* teams of minimum level 120+, often maxed, the only weaker stuff comes if I refresh enough to get opponent with <400 total. And they see me too because in minutes my 2* get beaten below 500 and attacks stop. I can't even get to 600 because the closer I am, the more 3* teams I get when skipping. This was case before, but the treshhold it happened was 600 (and I don't remember so many terrible teams when climbing). That 100 point difference means if I don't shield (for 8h, Europe) then without doubt I will not score 3* cover, even if that cover is Loki.

I didn't say the change will be gradual, did I? The "wall" Will always feel like you hit right hard into it, simply because of our experience. It's like the frog in a boiling pot parable, you have been inching your way towards the wall, and when you finally reach it, it hits hard.

One thing you fail to understand is how the node assignment works. The algorithm works simply on your MMR, and your current points total. Which means as soon as you start winning the trash teams (in your own words), you start to climb higher in your MMR and your points total.

This is akin to a knock out tournament, with infinite games. As you win one game, you climb higher, and you eventually face tougher competition.

Sure, sometimes you end up in a strange knock out tournament, in which you see trash teams at level 100.sometimes you see max teams at level 1. But this are variance. Eventually everyone will end up at a performance relative to the others.

So how do one perform better? One thing for sure is to improve your roster. You can go further in the knock out tourney, but you eventually hit a wall. Another way is the judicious use of boosts and shields.

The rules are the *same* for everyone.

Side note, you have 3 lvl 91 3*. My advice is to level only one of them to the max. I am less likely to attack a team with 2 max 2* and 1 max 3*, than a team with unmax 3*.

And with the harder competitio n, I would assume that's what brackets are supposed to be for? Because if more and more people have better rosters, you will face point where they would block any possible transition possibilities from new players. Hell, I'm blocked right now, all my HP is spent on slots for new heroes they keep adding, so my only source is rng from token pulls and whatever progression reward is in PvE.

You probably weren't around when the uproar over the death brackets happen. Your idea of a bracket has it's flaws, becAuse when you put people with 3* together, they will complain about it too (much like what you are doing too). So while you complain that you are being "bullied" by the 3*, and want to fight the 2*.... those who are in the 3* (esp those with only 1 3*), will also complain when they are artificially forced to fight the 3* only. It's a never ending cycle of complain.

My preference is to just make it fair by keeping it time based, and only a certain level of protectionism for the 1* teams. But that's my personal opinion.

atomzed

Ben Grimm wrote:

They've definitely changed the matchmaking. The wall of 166s (also known as the boring time) hits earlier, and seems more total - it used to come on kind of gradually, but I think now is complete by latest 700, maybe even 600. North of 700, 95% of what I see is 166/270 teams worth less than 25 points. The other 5% is 166/270 teams worth over 25.

Not in my experience. In my memory there are around 2 gates, one at 300 mark, one at 700 to 800 mark. It has been around since people cry out about the death brackets.

I am still observing the same trends now. Depending on the timing of push, the second gate comes on earlier or later.

A lot of people failed to take into account the timing of push.

Unknown

atomzed wrote:

Ben Grimm wrote:

They've definitely changed the matchmaking. The wall of 166s (also known as the boring time) hits earlier, and seems more total - it used to come on kind of gradually, but I think now is complete by latest 700, maybe even 600. North of 700, 95% of what I see is 166/270 teams worth less than 25 points. The other 5% is 166/270 teams worth over 25.

Not in my experience. In my memory there are around 2 gates, one at 300 mark, one at 700 to 800 mark. It has been around since people cry out about the death brackets.

I am still observing the same trends now. Depending on the timing of push, the second gate comes on earlier or later.

A lot of people failed to take into account the timing of push.

No, there is definitely a gate around 600-700 now that used used to exist around 800 or so. I could usually find 2* teams until I crossed 800 before; they completely dry up over 600 now. And I'd guess maybe one team in a hundred is between 2* and 3* after the 2* teams dry up.

atomzed

Ben Grimm wrote:

atomzed wrote:

Ben Grimm wrote:

They've definitely changed the matchmaking. The wall of 166s (also known as the boring time) hits earlier, and seems more total - it used to come on kind of gradually, but I think now is complete by latest 700, maybe even 600. North of 700, 95% of what I see is 166/270 teams worth less than 25 points. The other 5% is 166/270 teams worth over 25.

Not in my experience. In my memory there are around 2 gates, one at 300 mark, one at 700 to 800 mark. It has been around since people cry out about the death brackets.

I am still observing the same trends now. Depending on the timing of push, the second gate comes on earlier or later.

A lot of people failed to take into account the timing of push.

No, there is definitely a gate around 600-700 now that used used to exist around 800 or so. I could usually find 2* teams until I crossed 800 before; they completely dry up over 600 now. And I'd guess maybe one team in a hundred is between 2* and 3* after the 2* teams dry up.

Some things to think about for your experience.

1) do you tank? I do

2) what time do you try to push? Cos when you push at the start, the total points haul are less. When you push late, a lot more people are shielded. If you push in the middle of the pvp, it depends on how many people are around the 600 points mark.

For example, in the dr oct pvp, I push at around 18 hr mark. Most of my top 10 are still around 600 points haul, with only a handful (2 or 3) at the 1000 mark. But those players (xmen and raiders and spartans and 5deadly) are usually shielded. Those who are not shielded usually have max teams. So I was climbing very slowly.

In the end, my top 10 has only around 800+ points.

I know that my bracket don't determine the overall points available in the nodes, but my experience is that the top 10 is usually a good indicator.

Unknown

atomzed wrote:

1) do you tank? I do

2) what time do you try to push? Cos when you push at the start, the total points haul are less. When you push late, a lot more people are shielded. If you push in the middle of the pvp, it depends on how many people are around the 600 points mark.

For example, in the dr oct pvp, I push at around 18 hr mark. Most of my top 10 are still around 600 points haul, with only a handful (2 or 3) at the 1000 mark. But those players (xmen and raiders and spartans and 5deadly) are usually shielded. Those who are not shielded usually have max teams. So I was climbing very slowly.

In the end, my top 10 has only around 800+ points.

I know that my bracket don't determine the overall points available in the nodes, but my experience is that the top 10 is usually a good indicator.

1) Religiously

2) Depends on the tournament, but usually either 6-7 hours out or about 3 hours out. It might vary on the rare occasion I need the covers. I usually try to stay out of the top ten until my final push, which usually ensures a lot of targets. And things have definitely changed in the last few weeks, because I didn't change my strategy at all, but the 166/270 wall is hitting much earlier.

Unknown

There is one real question

Why do they have to "stab us in the back" with ninja changes?

I cannot speak for others. But for me, if MPQ is going to make a change that substantially affects gameplay, I'd rather an announcement. An announcement would at least show respect for me as a player, a customer, and a person.

atomzed

Ben Grimm wrote:

atomzed wrote:

1) do you tank? I do

2) what time do you try to push? Cos when you push at the start, the total points haul are less. When you push late, a lot more people are shielded. If you push in the middle of the pvp, it depends on how many people are around the 600 points mark.

For example, in the dr oct pvp, I push at around 18 hr mark. Most of my top 10 are still around 600 points haul, with only a handful (2 or 3) at the 1000 mark. But those players (xmen and raiders and spartans and 5deadly) are usually shielded. Those who are not shielded usually have max teams. So I was climbing very slowly.

In the end, my top 10 has only around 800+ points.

I know that my bracket don't determine the overall points available in the nodes, but my experience is that the top 10 is usually a good indicator.

1) Religiously

2) Depends on the tournament, but usually either 6-7 hours out or about 3 hours out. It might vary on the rare occasion I need the covers. I usually try to stay out of the top ten until my final push, which usually ensures a lot of targets. And things have definitely changed in the last few weeks, because I didn't change my strategy at all, but the 166/270 wall is hitting much earlier.

Part of the tank club, hi five

What I have noticed is that a lot of 2* teams have started shielding up earlier. And because they shield up earlier, the points dry up faster. You either see the bottom teams with very little points, or those triple max team, who don't bother to shield.

In short, the community has evolved. So while my strategy (similar to yours)have remain the same, the targets available has changed too. Someone mentioned in the forum that he tries to shield up at 8 hrs mark, becAuse there are a lot more hits at the 6 hr and 7 hr mark. I share the same sentiment as him, as I tried to finish my last climb early and only do shield hop subsequently.

Unknown

atomzed wrote:

Part of the tank club, hi five

What I have noticed is that a lot of 2* teams have started shielding up earlier. And because they shield up earlier, the points dry up faster. You either see the bottom teams with very little points, or those triple max team, who don't bother to shield.

In short, the community has evolved. So while my strategy (similar to yours)have remain the same, the targets available has changed too. Someone mentioned in the forum that he tries to shield up at 8 hrs mark, becAuse there are a lot more hits at the 6 hr and 7 hr mark. I share the same sentiment as him, as I tried to finish my last climb early and only do shield hop subsequently.

This is probably the truth. at the 500-700 mark, you're still in the brackets. Most of the 2* players in this range are shielded. The only ones that are not are the 166s, who won't waste HP on shields to defend from mostly 2* who they can retal.

Unknown

atomzed wrote:

Nivrax wrote:

Sure, sometimes you end up in a strange knock out tournament, in which you see trash teams at level 100.sometimes you see max teams at level 1. But this are variance. Eventually everyone will end up at a performance relative to the others.

So how do one perform better? One thing for sure is to improve your roster. You can go further in the knock out tourney, but you eventually hit a wall. Another way is the judicious use of boosts and shields.

The rules are the *same* for everyone.

The rules have changed. The rules had a wall starting at 600. The rules allowed, in past, to not shield and still score in top100. The 'new' rules, as you can see from others not just imagination, switched this lower, taking any ability to get 3* without use of a shield. I 'cannot' improve my roster simply because 'now' even lowest hanging reward is out of my reach. Literally the only reason I would enter any pvp at this point is for high-rng token and HP that I could buy shield once per three events, if I didn't need for another 3* that got introduced and that I can't miss or I'm loosing in PvE as well.

My roster have half leveled 3* mostly because of some PvE missions/gauntlet, I'm using Daken/Wolv for climb and Ares/oBW when reaching 500. There is no way for me to improve roster. The second I stick my nose past 500, I'm getting smacked by full covered 3*. About death brackets, I'm not sure. I did join the game before Season one started though and I kinda remember how PvP used to be through the months. Up until now that is, when my ability to get 3* covers got cut by half. I have no problems when better geared players take highest spots. I have problem when I need to have 3* heroes to earn even lowest 3* covers.

Edit: To reiterate a bit. I want to get 3* covers and I want them by 'working' on them. But under current system, I have to either 'pay' to get anything, or play only until 400 fighting subpar teams. There is lack of middle ground.

Unknown

It seems like you're more likely to run into a wall of 166s the closer it is to the end of the event (like less than 3 hours to go) regardless of your current rating, and I find it hard to believe this is because every guy with a 2* roster is shielded at that point, though I certainly have ran into 166s the moment the event started too.

GrumpySmurf1002

Phantron wrote:

It seems like you're more likely to run into a wall of 166s the closer it is to the end of the event (like less than 3 hours to go) regardless of your current rating, and I find it hard to believe this is because every guy with a 2* roster is shielded at that point, though I certainly have ran into 166s the moment the event started too.

I'm running into it now around 550pts regardless of time entered/played. I don't really tank though, so that's probably my first problem.

Nellobee

If tanking actually works, I hope the developers consider it unintended and make efforts to fix it.

I wonder if the wall is getting worse due to 2-3* transitioners quitting. You would hope for a gentler slope, but if there aren't enough players in that space...

wymtime

Let's take a look at a time line so everyone can see why things are the way they are in PVP. I will only use 2014 till now.
Jan-PVP was all bloodbath's. You had to score as high as you could and play until the end becuase you had no shield. 2* covers would not drop from random covers and if you scored 50-75 you got three 2* covers. Top 50 got one 3*, and top 5 got three 3*. There were no alliances.
April-ish- Season 1 starts. We have added alliances, and a complete change in rewards structre. You could only earn a max of 2 3* in single competition and the 3rd rewards was for top 100 alliance. 2* started dropping for PVP win's and it was a brutal climb for a 2* team to stay competitive.
This is a very important time becuase the 2-3* transition stalled in a big way. People like me were stuck in 2* land. We could not earn enogh 3* covers becuase we could not place well in PVP and/or were not in a top 100 alliance. This was the great ISO stock up as well. All these players with maxed out 2* teams and you had to grind in PVP to get top 50. Becuase you healed in prologue with OBW you played and played. You also got attacked like no bodys buisness, so 2* transition teams earned loads of ISO.

June-ish- The Dev's reworked the rewards structure to allow more 3* to drop current structure the same as it is now except alliances got the top 5 cover instead of the top 100. now all these 2* teams that were in the top 50 started pushing for top 25 and started getting into better alliances/ had alliances score more. Suddenly the 2* players with stockpiles of ISO were winning 3* covers. I personall had over 300k in ISO saved when I started really scoring top 25. Ture healing was in full effect so people with deep rosters could still play more while players with limited rosters suffered. Top people did quite so it was easier to score as well.

August-ish- Sentry hopping became the rage, X-Men figured out how to score in PVP at will and a whole lot of 2* transition players were now 3*.
This brings us to today. We have a lot of 3* players who rule the top 25. You have the elite in elite alliances who look to score 1300+ for the 4* covers which has forced the top 10 to be 900-1000 in most brackets. This leaves the 2* teams fighting for top 50-top 100 scoring <800 points. Getting to a solid 2* roster is much easier today than Jan, but becuase you need such a deep roster to rise in PVP the 2-3* transition is in another stalling phase.
2* have come up so fast that they are stalling. They will hit a wall in PVP and it will be frustrating. This will go in cycles and in about 2 months top players will retire 3* players will quite with frustration and a group of 2* with loads of ISO will break through the glass ceiling after getting 2-3 maxed characters. When this happens they will be the people stomping on the 2* and being able to score over 800 points with a shield hop, or not. They will see they are not being attacked as much when they are over 600 points. This is a phase that will rotate every 3-6 months as players join and leave. My advice is to be patient, score what you can and push yourselves. Collect as much ISO as possible and 3* covers as possible. Once you get the right covers and you level up you will see the rewards.

Good luck 2*

scottee

You can't face 2* teams above 600 if there are no 2* teams above 600. I actually wish I could run into 166's sooner so I could fight less fights early on. All the 2* teams up until 600 are great except in the 500-600 range when I can only find 2* teams that are worth less than 25 points. But after 600 it seems to open up to 3* teams, so I can access matches that are worth more points.

Yes, everyone would like to face 2* teams for lots of points until they hit 1300, but that's only possible if there exist 2* teams with that many points. And they don't exist.

Unknown

The problem with this game is that very few guys seem to get that the expected value of a 3* you don't plan on leveling is negative. You're likely to spend more HP/iso trying to place well than whatever that cover is worth which means the more you play the less resources you have. After you hit whatever threshold goals you may have for an event the best thing to do is simply walk away unless the event features a character you plan to level and use immediately. And no alliances don't make that up because alliance never depends on one person and if you've to take a significant HP/iso loss for the alliance you're probably coming out behind. Of course here there's the issue of politics and being able to keep your place in the said alliance but for the most part if you feel obligated to play because of an alliance then you're on the way of being burned out anyway and you should save yourself the trouble and just play less and wait until you get kicked out instead of you being burned out of the game and quit for good, since if you quit the game then everything you've played for is meaningless while if you got kicked out of an alliance at least you still have all your characters if you're not burned out on the game.

I used to try to place well in all the events thinking all these covers will be useful, but all that means is I got a lot of guys who are max covered that I never use while I wasted iso (boosts/skip) and HP (shields) trying to get them. Sure, if it's someone like GSBW who can be useful even at a low level with a max Deceptive Tactics that's a decent investment, but there's no need to take a resource hit for a mid range 3* that you will never use unless required to. Besides, the whole PvP situation is akin to prisonner's dilemma, which has a payoff like this:

You take it easy + everyone takes it easy = everyone wins
You take it easy + everyone else is serious = you lose slightly
You take it seriousky + everyone else takes it easy = you win big
You take it seriously + everyone else is serious = everyone loses

However, since the majority of the player is pretty set on the 'serious' mode, this means your choice is only you lose or everyone loses. Unlike the classical prisonner's dilemma, the 'you lose' magnitude is less than the 'everyone loses' case, because if everyone is serious then you have to play a ton, spend a lot of resources, and still have no guarantee on winning anything, compared to if you just take it easy then you probably won't win but then you don't have spend time/resources. In MPQ, unless one is hyper competitive, the best long term strategy is 'do the opposite of what everyone's doing'. Back when shields aren't used commonly you should use shields, and now that shields are used widely you should not shield because you likely won't even get the cost of the shield back for using them.

Unknown

Ben Grimm wrote:

Do you think PVP is there to have fun? No! It's there to teach you the futility and impermanence of all things in life. Shields are there to demonstrate you can only hide and protect yourself for so long before all the evils of the world gang up and attack you all at once.

MIND. BLOWN.

+1

Unknown

stephen43084 wrote:

There is one real question

Why do they have to "stab us in the back" with ninja changes?

I cannot speak for others. But for me, if MPQ is going to make a change that substantially affects gameplay, I'd rather an announcement. An announcement would at least show respect for me as a player, a customer, and a person.

Because their game is largely built on player ignorance. This is why they don't link to the forums in-game. If most of the playerbase knew what was going on, they would have to drastically change how they operate

Unknown

onimus wrote:

Shields aren't required.

As long as you don't care about getting top 25.

In Fatal Attraction, I got 951 points for a top 10 spot without any shields. An exception to be sure, but doable

Phantron wrote:

Of course here there's the issue of politics and being able to keep your place in the said alliance but for the most part if you feel obligated to play because of an alliance then you're on the way of being burned out anyway and you should save yourself the trouble and just play less and wait until you get kicked out instead of you being burned out of the game and quit for good, since if you quit the game then everything you've played for is meaningless while if you got kicked out of an alliance at least you still have all your characters if you're not burned out on the game.

But... if I quit the game, I get my life back! Surely that's worth something!

scottee

gobstopper wrote:

stephen43084 wrote:

There is one real question

Why do they have to "stab us in the back" with ninja changes?

I cannot speak for others. But for me, if MPQ is going to make a change that substantially affects gameplay, I'd rather an announcement. An announcement would at least show respect for me as a player, a customer, and a person.

Because their game is largely built on player ignorance. This is why they don't link to the forums in-game. If most of the playerbase knew what was going on, they would have to drastically change how they operate

Ignorance may be part of it, but I also think the forum vastly overestimates how much the rest of the player base would care about some of these things.

My brother's a pretty casual player, and he doesn't really care that certain characters aren't in the tokens, or that OBW still explodes crits in mid air, or that some heros don't have their color priority match their abilities. He sees the anniversary announcement and says, "cool," not, "It's the 3rd in my timezone, where's my RAWR!?"