Hypothetical - what would this skill cost? And what color?

Unknown

XXX - Y AP of color Z
Downs enemy character.

I think it would be hard to claim that this skill should cost more than 20 AP. 19AP damn near downs the entire enemy team, and that's still considered underpowered. Throw 20 AP at, say, Human Torch, and he can do around 9k damage on a more versatile and malleable skill - enough to down almost any character in the game. I also think it should be red - red being the skill with precedence both for downing someone and for direct damage overall.

Unknown

Well, considering with DP you can literally down ANY entire team with 14 purple AP + an arbitrary DP points resource, I'd say to down ANY character with no arbitrary resource would be in that range. Probably 13-15-ish.

I think color depends on the character. (Case in point- DP.) but just for generic character, red sounds right.

mohio

You have to set it up but for 14 red patch can down anyone. Pre-nerf CMags could just about do it too with 10 purple. My initial thought was at least 15, but pushing it to "playable" you could make it 12 without breaking the game I think. Rage of the panther dealing all damage to one guy would essentially down anyone non-buffed, so 12 doesn't sound too crazy.

As for color you have small precedents in red and black (retribution and devour) so it would most likely be one of those. Red generally being big single target damage abilities does point towards that being the right color.

NorthernPolarity

mohio wrote:

You have to set it up but for 14 red patch can down anyone. Pre-nerf CMags could just about do it too with 10 purple. My initial thought was at least 15, but pushing it to "playable" you could make it 12 without breaking the game I think. Rage of the panther dealing all damage to one guy would essentially down anyone non-buffed, so 12 doesn't sound too crazy.

As for color you have small precedents in red and black (retribution and devour) so it would most likely be one of those. Red generally being big single target damage abilities does point towards that being the right color.

You need to think about gauntlet style PvE when balancing this ability. Against say a 395 Juggs with 17k hp, having a skill that can down him in 12AP sounds pretttty imbalanced. Just off of high level PvE considerations, I would say that ~16-17 AP is probably appropriate, although I'd have to crunch the numbers.

Unknown

Replace "Downs Enemy Charcater" with "Does 10200 Damage" and have it cost 14 Red. Basically a less math, more reliable The Best There Is.

Unknown

Lerysh wrote:

Replace "Downs Enemy Charcater" with "Does 10200 Damage" and have it cost 14 Red. Basically a less math, more reliable The Best There Is.

But that misses the point. (Even if it didn't, your math is off - Hulk has more than 10k life). But right now, in PvE, I have a Juggernaut at level 150, and he's already above 12k health. That's the point of this skill - a big fat "**** you buffed PvE characters". Not only that, but it also completely ignores shield tiles. That's the idea here - an uncompromising, "you're losing a character now" skill. And I kinda like black for it, now that I think about it.

Spoit

Fury's functionally downs any character but a buffed fat guy (or pve scaled 2*) for only 10 AP as long as you avoid setting off your own s

Unknown

Budget Player Cadet wrote:

Lerysh wrote:

Replace "Downs Enemy Charcater" with "Does 10200 Damage" and have it cost 14 Red. Basically a less math, more reliable The Best There Is.

But that misses the point. (Even if it didn't, your math is off - Hulk has more than 10k life). But right now, in PvE, I have a Juggernaut at level 150, and he's already above 12k health. That's the point of this skill - a big fat "tinykitty you buffed PvE characters". Not only that, but it also completely ignores shield tiles. That's the idea here - an uncompromising, "you're losing a character now" skill. And I kinda like black for it, now that I think about it.

Budget Player Cadet wrote:

XXX - Y AP of color Z
Downs enemy character.

I think it would be hard to claim that this skill should cost more than 20 AP. 19AP damn near downs the entire enemy team, and that's still considered underpowered. Throw 20 AP at, say, Human Torch, and he can do around 9k damage on a more versatile and malleable skill - enough to down almost any character in the game. I also think it should be red - red being the skill with precedence both for downing someone and for direct damage overall.

You really answered your own questions here.

You are asking for an unconditional kill power, essentially a Punisher Red that works at 100% life. That's a problem and here's why.

-- If the power unconditionally kills, at any level, then the assumption that it can kill a level 395 Juggs/Hulk/Sentry/Whatever is true. Thus, the power has to be able to dish out 25k damage.

-- Broadly speaking, powers roughly double in power with each additional match-3 required.

-- TBTI can inflict 10K on a single target for 5 matches (14 AP), but likely achieves this total through discounts from a) damage being conditional on the number of tiles that Patch is tanking at any time and b) the generation of two enemy strike tiles. Without these negatives, TBTI likely would move to the 6 match range and cost 17-18 AP.

-- Torch's Red has a drawback in that it can (and usually does) knock out Red strike tiles. Given its cost of 8 and refund of 2 (if available on the board), Torch is only going to generate 12k-ish damage for 20 Red AP (8 + 6 + 6). Granted, this could be chalked up to the limitations of 3-match damage skills.

Thus, with no negatives or strings attached, a 25k damage skill would require a very high number of matches. I don't think you get there below 8 matches, as you would need to double the 6-match TBTI in power twice to ensure enough damage to outright down a 395. 23-24 AP for a straight damage move, add another match 3 if it does anything to the board (slashes, sniper rifle, etc.); 25-27 AP in that case.

Color would surely be Red, as that is the dominant single target direct damage, although I could see a thematic exception for a Black "Assassination" power being possible.

Unknown

It'd have to cost more than any other ability in the game and considering it works against boosted characters I don't see how it could be 20AP or lower (base). Even Bullseye's Murderous aim costs 18AP (base). If purely unconditional, I'd agree with the 25AP range, though I could see them making it 30AP if such a move were ever to be created.
If the color were moved to black, it would make doom a plausible support character. Eg MNMags, Doom, and whoever had this move.

On one hand, I could see this being some sort of PVE boss enemy with mega hp. Down him before he downs you.

Unknown

daibar wrote:

It'd have to cost more than any other ability in the game and considering it works against boosted characters I don't see how it could be 20AP or lower (base). Even Bullseye's Murderous aim costs 18AP (base).

It's worth noting that Murderous Aim is not considered a good (or even a remotely playable) skill, and that Bullseye is easily one of the very worst characters in the game. And now try to think back to the last time you gathered 20 red AP. Just sayin'.

Unknown

Budget Player Cadet wrote:

daibar wrote:

It'd have to cost more than any other ability in the game and considering it works against boosted characters I don't see how it could be 20AP or lower (base). Even Bullseye's Murderous aim costs 18AP (base).

It's worth noting that Murderous Aim is not considered a good (or even a remotely playable) skill, and that Bullseye is easily one of the very worst characters in the game. And now try to think back to the last time you gathered 20 red AP. Just sayin'.

3 matches ago. When waiting for my other characters to heal, I play a 2* Wolverine + Daken combo. I actually get 20 red AP quite frequently. If I used IM40, I'm sure I'd hit that quickly too. If this hypothetical skill were cheap enough that you could probably use it twice to instantly down 2 of any lvl characters, it's probably over powered. With generators/stealers it's not unheard of. Best There Is costs 14 AP, and it generally doesn't kill a tank character. 22 AP is probably the lowest I'd go, depending on the character's other skills.

Unknown

Bullseye is weak because he is fragile. He is fragile because he is a two power low HP 2*, a 3* version with a third power would be vicious.

If Bullseye's murderous aim cost only 15 you could save up 30 black and essentially start assassinating people. As it is now it takes 32 back which makes it fundamentally impractical to set off.

We are asking about a 3* power so it doesn't make sense to invoke the bullseye sucks opinion. Though using the same rules I would say Minimum 16 black AP for an unconditional kill.

What would you think about something conditional like:

12 Black : If <character> is the last living member on your team down target enemy. Else deal X damage.

GrumpySmurf1002

I'd personally make it 17-20AP Black. You know, like the equally dangerous Control Shift.

orionpeace

Captain Britain
14 Red AP
Stuns his own team for 1 turn, himself for 3 turns and instant kills one enemy.

Phaserhawk

I'd have it similar to Fury's Avenger's Assemble. Except you have to have 6 of all the colors. This would make it at least a 12 Match ability which translates to about 36 AP, however, due to boosting you could have it go off first turn, so I guess you could say an ability to down any character should really cost. 100 HP and 600 ISO-8

jojeda654

Phaserhawk wrote:

I'd have it similar to Fury's Avenger's Assemble. Except you have to have 6 of all the colors. This would make it at least a 12 Match ability which translates to about 36 AP

This matches Venom's requirements for an insta-kill. 12 + 24 = 36 AP.
Definitely more difficult to pull off than 6*6 since you can easily starve the board of those 2 colors. Being a 1 doesn't help either.

Unknown

What if the cost didn't all come from AP? What if it cost 12-ish AP and downed a random other teammate of yours? Definitely a black skill now, call it something like "You're Expendable!" or "By Any Means Necessary". Toss it on a particularly sociopathic, selfish or megalomaniac villain. The flavor of fighting a villain like this in PvE, killing his own Maggia/HAMMER/Mutant goons to take down your heroes would spot on for a really nasty enemy.

Sandmaker

I think the cost will depend on who it's on. At the very least you have to account for how much HP the hero has. If it's on someone like The Hood, then I can see it going as low as 14 or 15. If it's on the hulk, you're looking at 20 at the very least. (This is assuming we want to make a competitive ability.)

Regarding its use in PVE. I don't think it really makes any sense to balance stuff around PvE. The levels vary too much between players. The ability will be OP against level 395 guys, but almost useless against sub 100 guys.

HailMary

I think the primary issue with such an ability would be its level independence. Its efficacy would also partially depend on the tankiness of its owner.

GSBW's is fed by DecTactics, but that's level-dependent and semi-balanced by the fact that she's a glass cannon. HT is wonderfully efficient, but also level-dependent and fired from a glass cannon. Deadpool is extremely good, too, but unsuitable for late-game use due to its % cap, is mounted on a character with "normal" 3* health, and has an absolute damage cap that's level-dependent. Punisher tops out at a 40%-health instakill, is mounted on a "normal" 3*-health character, and is level-independent, which makes it the closest analogue.

Retribution costs 8 , and since True Instakill is level-independent, you're free to underlevel Instakillatron to hide behind your other characters. I don't like powers that are absurdly expensive without any sort of battery (i.e. GSBW without DecTactics), but True Instakill needs to have real caveats. I've seen two interesting mechanics that provide such caveats: Hulk & Docock . The former drains green, and the latter's stun targets only a random enemy. Negative synergy with other high-damage powers would be an additional caveat.

So, two versions of True Instakill, mounted on an Instakillatron with HT-level health:

True Instakill MkI - 13
1-4 covers: Increases absolute damage cap and % threshold for instakill, a la Punisher's Retribution. Also increases & requirements.
5 covers: Instantly downs selected enemy character, requires 9 & 9 , depletes , , upon activation.

True Instakill MkII (a.k.a. SMASH HULK!) - 14
1-4 covers: Increases absolute damage cap and % threshold for instakill, a la Punisher's Retribution.
5 covers: Instantly downs a random member of the enemy team; consumes 50% of &

poomermon

Yeah it really depends on his hp and what other abilites this hypothetical character has. But lets say he had 2 other mediocre abilities and standard 6800 health. Then just one super ability that downs one opponent without any pre-conditions. In fact that sounds very much like Deadpool except whales deals dmg to the whole team which is arguably better. So maybe 14 ap on a color that can't be accelerated (purple). Then again Deadpool is not super op at current meta so we could lower the cost to 12 and imo it would still be somewhat balanced.

Tl;dr 12 purple ap on otherwise mediocre character

Enoc99

Cryptobrancus wrote:

Bullseye is weak because he is fragile. He is fragile because he is a two power low HP 2*, a 3* version with a third power would be vicious.

If Bullseye's murderous aim cost only 15 you could save up 30 black and essentially start assassinating people. As it is now it takes 32 back which makes it fundamentally impractical to set off.

We are asking about a 3* power so it doesn't make sense to invoke the bullseye sucks opinion. Though using the same rules I would say Minimum 16 black AP for an unconditional kill.

What would you think about something conditional like:

12 Black : If <character> is the last living member on your team down target enemy. Else deal X damage.

Totally depends on the condition. Venom's Devour can instant kill for 12 black, but with a fairly difficult (as of now) condition to meet. Granted, his ability isn't very competitive.

If you are wanting a relatively competitive ability a less difficult condition (like Cryptobrancus' above) or something similar.

A character that would be fitting for an ability like this would be Gamora.